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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,899

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "StillPurple" wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.

    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.

    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    91

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    Its nice to see Jackson getting a nice article for a change.
    I was watching Vince Young tonight and i just dont understand why everybody says Jackson is holding us back from a superbowl and then in the same breath say Tennessee dosen't provide enough weapons for Vince Young.
    Jackson is looking better and when i was watching vince young tonight he just looked lost.

  3. #23
    singersp's Avatar
    singersp is offline PPO Newshound
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    52,207

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "StillPurple" wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.
    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.
    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    LOL Marr, surely you jest. The previous regime didn't just rest their laurels on Culpepper & some old vets.

    The "Beast" must have affected your memory. Fact is there were 3 young QB's brought in during the years you listed.

    Todd Bouman (2001-2002) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Romaro Miller (2001) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Shaun Hill (2002-2005) was signed as an UDFA in 2002

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  4. #24
    vikinggreg's Avatar
    vikinggreg is offline Ring of Fame
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Great White North
    Posts
    4,734

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "StillPurple" wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.

    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.

    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    LOL Marr, surely you jest. The previous regime didn't just rest their laurels on Culpepper & some old vets.

    The "Beast" must have affected your memory. Fact is there were 3 young QB's brought in during the years you listed.

    Todd Bouman (2001-2002) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Romaro Miller (2001) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Shaun Hill (2002-2005) was signed as an UDFA in 2002
    What about Billy Cockerham 2000 UDFA, Miller took his spot as # 3 in 2001

    Then there was that ...? Wynn guy

    Kevin Thompson in 2003 who battle Juston Wood UDFA from Portland State

    Matt Kagel in 2004 UDFA from Washington State

  5. #25
    singersp's Avatar
    singersp is offline PPO Newshound
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    52,207

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "vikinggreg" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=StillPurple link=topic=47065.msg820304#msg820304 date=1218824230]
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.
    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.
    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    LOL Marr, surely you jest. The previous regime didn't just rest their laurels on Culpepper & some old vets.

    The "Beast" must have affected your memory. Fact is there were 3 young QB's brought in during the years you listed.

    Todd Bouman (2001-2002) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Romaro Miller (2001) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Shaun Hill (2002-2005) was signed as an UDFA in 2002
    What about Billy Cockerham 2000 UDFA, Miller took his spot as # 3 in 2001

    Then there was that ...? Wynn guy

    Kevin Thompson in 2003 who battle Juston Wood UDFA from Portland State

    Matt Kagel in 2004 UDFA from Washington State
    [/quote]

    There were others as you mentioned that were brought in, but I only listed those that made the roster in 1999-2005 (The years Marr referenced) & only those that were signed as UDFA's.

    Spergon Wynn was here in 2001, but he wasn't drafted by the Vikings or picked up as an UDFA. He had been previously signed by the Browns in 2000.


    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #26
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "StillPurple" wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.
    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.
    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    Where to start.

    It looks like the answer to the draft was already taken up by others so I will address the question of how those older vets worked out for us.

    Since we are dealing with the old regime, I will look at how the backups did. It is a bit late so I am not going to dig deep, but if we look at how the backup did in 2005, he came in and went 7-2.

    In 2003 Gus Frerotte had the following stats:

    Gus Frerotte 16 65 38 58.5 690 10.62 7 2 5 22 118.1

    Just for kicks, a guy you failed to mention had these stats in 2002:

    Todd Bouman 2 6 3 50.0 85 14.17 0 0 2 22 95.8

    In 2001 these were the backup stats( Spergeon sucks)

    Spergon Wynn 3 98 48 49.0 418 4.27 1 6 10 65 38.6
    Todd Bouman 5 89 51 57.3 795 8.93 8 4 4 27 98.3

    In 2000 Bubby didn't fare too well:

    Bubby Brister 2 20 10 50.0 82 4.10 0 1 1 6 40.0

    In 1999 this old guy came in to replace RC and had these stats:

    Name GP ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT
    Jeff George 12 329 191 58.1 2816 8.56 23 12 28 228 94.2

    1998:

    Brad Johnson 4 101 65 64.4 747 7.40 7 5 4 30 89.0




    Now, we will put in the stats for the backup QB's for the current regime and see how they stack up

    2005:

    Tarvaris Jackson 4 81 47 58.0 475 5.86 2 4 8 50 62.5
    Brooks Bollinger 2 18 13 72.2 146 8.11 0 1 6 50 72.9

    2006:

    Kelly Holcomb 3 83 42 50.6 515 6.20 2 1 12 87 73.1
    Brooks Bollinger 5 50 33 66.0 391 7.82 1 1 7 36 88.0



    Looks to me like they stacked up pretty favorably to what the current regime has gotten from the backup players.

  7. #27
    StillPurple is offline Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,255

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    To UffDAVikes: Yes !!

    Word.

    You took the words out of my mouth. We went from a team that had one of the best passing games in the NFL in 2004 to a team now that can barely find its ass with both hands.


    And your stats back it all up. I am with you, bro !

  8. #28
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,899

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "StillPurple" wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.

    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.

    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    LOL Marr, surely you jest. The previous regime didn't just rest their laurels on Culpepper & some old vets.

    The "Beast" must have affected your memory. Fact is there were 3 young QB's brought in during the years you listed.

    Todd Bouman (2001-2002) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Romaro Miller (2001) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Shaun Hill (2002-2005) was signed as an UDFA in 2002
    LOL, I hear ya my friend, however, I kindof see a double standard here for you.


    Its not ok to address the OL via UDFA but it is the QB position?
    :P
    :P
    :P

    Comeon my friend, arguably the most important position and you are saying we need to look at soley on old has beens/never wases ( ;D) and some undrafted players?

    I'm talking about seriously addressing/readdressing the position each and every year.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #29
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,899

    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "StillPurple" wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.

    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.

    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    Where to start.

    It looks like the answer to the draft was already taken up by others so I will address the question of how those older vets worked out for us.

    Since we are dealing with the old regime, I will look at how the backups did. It is a bit late so I am not going to dig deep, but if we look at how the backup did in 2005, he came in and went 7-2.

    In 2003 Gus Frerotte had the following stats:

    Gus Frerotte 16 65 38 58.5 690 10.62 7 2 5 22 118.1

    Just for kicks, a guy you failed to mention had these stats in 2002:

    Todd Bouman 2 6 3 50.0 85 14.17 0 0 2 22 95.8

    In 2001 these were the backup stats( Spergeon sucks)

    Spergon Wynn 3 98 48 49.0 418 4.27 1 6 10 65 38.6
    Todd Bouman 5 89 51 57.3 795 8.93 8 4 4 27 98.3

    In 2000 Bubby didn't fare too well:

    Bubby Brister 2 20 10 50.0 82 4.10 0 1 1 6 40.0

    In 1999 this old guy came in to replace RC and had these stats:

    Name GP ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA TD INT SKD SKY RAT
    Jeff George 12 329 191 58.1 2816 8.56 23 12 28 228 94.2

    1998:

    Brad Johnson 4 101 65 64.4 747 7.40 7 5 4 30 89.0




    Now, we will put in the stats for the backup QB's for the current regime and see how they stack up

    2005:

    Tarvaris Jackson 4 81 47 58.0 475 5.86 2 4 8 50 62.5
    Brooks Bollinger 2 18 13 72.2 146 8.11 0 1 6 50 72.9

    2006:

    Kelly Holcomb 3 83 42 50.6 515 6.20 2 1 12 87 73.1
    Brooks Bollinger 5 50 33 66.0 391 7.82 1 1 7 36 88.0



    Looks to me like they stacked up pretty favorably to what the current regime has gotten from the backup players.
    All well and good and respectable players, however, how many of those cats got us to the promised land and are of the ilk that StillPurple is pining for?

    Answer: None of them. ;D

    Comeon my friend.
    His problem is he can't wait for this team to develop, especially in the QB area.
    Lets take a look at stats from TJ, JDB, etc etc etc in a five year window.
    My guess is that thier stats will cause those of those has beens to pale.

    Again, nice effort but none of those guys is what he is describing above.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #30
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    Re: Nice article on Jackson

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=StillPurple link=topic=47065.msg820304#msg820304 date=1218824230]
    Don't get me wrong, I like Tarvaris. I like his arm strength and his movement. I like the way he has carried himself through the whole Favre circus.

    But at the same time, I would really rather be in the situation of us having a proven playoff QB, and the commentators saying "well, if they can stay healthy and just execute, they should make the NFC Championship", rather than people here writing that we should "give Tarvaris a chance" and "be optimistic", etc. There is a difference between knowledge and faith, and I would rather have knowledge.

    I mean, look around the NFL at almost any team. They almost all have QBs who went to big-time I-A colleges and who have proven themselves already in the NFL. Need I name names (Manning, Brady, Brees, Romo, Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, etc, etc.). When I put "Jackson" up there, I just can't overcome the feeling that we are in trouble.

    Imagine we are playing Seattle or Dallas in the playoffs, and we are down by 13. We need our QB to engineer a long drive, and then another one, and the defense knows we have to throw it.

    I just don't have faith that we get that done. It is one thing to hand off to AP when we are ahead. Quite another to come back from down 13 vs. Hasselbeck or Romo in the playoffs.
    So let me get this straight.....You want the following.....

    a.
    You want some team to draft a 1-A QB, groom him for 4 or 5 years.
    b.
    You then want that FO to release that guy after investing that many years in that guy.
    c.
    You probably also want that very same FO to groom a second QB of this nature and let him go as well.
    d.
    Then you want this FO to go out and sign that guy.

    Comeon my friend.
    It just doesn't work that way.
    Any team that has a young QB with promise (GB, Dallas, Cleveland) is resigning those guys and letting thier has beens and never was's go the way of FA.
    Any team that has a QB that still have some life in him are retaining his services (except GB).

    Long story short, we are in this mess cause the last regime refused to grow QB's.
    TJ will be proven at the end of this year and we will have at least JDB in the pipeline for the future if needed.
    Given time we will have several QBs in various stages of development and we won't have to worry about this anymore.

    I understand what you are saying, but the part about blaming the last regime for refusing to grow QB's is just plain wrong. They had a QB in Culpepper who was a Pro bowler in 2004 and was in his prime. They backed him up with veterans who could come in and win if they were called on and they usually had a young guy on the roster as a third stringer.

    When Culpepper got hurt in 2005 they had Johnson as a backup who came in and played great in relief. That situation is not all that different from where we are now except that Culpepper had more experience than Jackson and had also been tested, where Jackson is still largely unproven.

    The last regime always made sure they had veteran QB's on the roster that they knew could run the offense if the starter faltered and when Green was here he had a system ( Or more accurately the personnel) that he could bring in a QB in the offseason and by the time the season rolled around they would be able to run it. None of this half a decade learning curve stuff that we get fed from the current staff.
    And how did that work out for us?

    Pepp bugged out.
    Johnson was used up.
    There were no young guys as you contend.

    Long story short, the right way to keep consistency at the QB level is to raise them in the system and not only to start but to act as backups/the future as well and not to have to go out and try to find has beens or never wases ( ;D).
    Very few teams let thier QB's of value hit the market and the ones that do hit the streets don't happen very often and are usually snatched up pretty quick.

    If the previous regime wouldn't have rested on its laurels (we have Pepp were set) there would have been a young kid that had been in the system for 2 or 3 years, learning from the bench and would have been ready to go.

    One thing I like about this staff.
    It appears they are gonna continually address the QB position each and every year to the point we have 3 or 4 QB's grown in this system in various stages of readiness.

    By the way, those young guys you mentioned quit coming around years ago as you have to go back to Pepp to see a QB drafted, not by the last regime but the regime before that...... ;D

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...3000&type=team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Troy Williamson
    WR South Carolina
    1 18 Erasmus James
    DE Wisconsin
    2 49 Marcus Johnson
    G Mississippi
    3 80 Dustin Fox
    DB Ohio State
    4 112 Ciatrick Fason
    RB Florida
    6 191 C.J. Mosley
    DT Missouri
    7 219 Adrian Ward
    -- Texas-El Paso

    2004 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 20 Kenechi Udeze
    DE USC
    2 48 Dontarrious Thomas
    OLB Auburn
    3 88 Darrion Scott
    DE Ohio State
    4 115 Nat Dorsey
    T Georgia Tech
    4 119 Mewelde Moore
    RB Tulane
    5 155 Rod Davis
    LB Southern Mississippi
    6 184 Deandre' Eiland
    DB South Carolina
    7 220 Jeff Dugan
    TE Maryland

    2003 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 9 Kevin Williams
    DE Oklahoma State
    2 40 E.J. Henderson
    LB Maryland
    3 71 Nate Burleson
    WR Nevada-Reno
    4 105 Onterrio Smith
    RB Oregon
    6 180 Eddie Johnson
    P Idaho State
    6 190 Michael Nattiel
    LB Florida
    7 221 Keenan Howry
    WR Oregon

    2002 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 7 Bryant McKinnie
    T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Raonall Smith
    LB Washington State
    3 70 Willie Offord
    SS South Carolina
    4 105 Brian Williams
    CB North Carolina State
    4 132 Ed Ta'amu
    -- Utah
    6 177 Nick Rogers
    OLB Georgia Tech
    7 218 Chad Beasley
    DT Virginia Tech

    2001 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 27 Michael Bennett
    RB Wisconsin
    2 57 Willie Howard
    DT Stanford
    3 69 Eric Kelly
    CB Kentucky
    4 130 Shawn Worthen
    DT Texas Christian
    4 131 Cedric James
    WR Texas Christian
    5 157 Patrick Chukwurah
    LB Wyoming
    6 189 Carey Scott
    CB Kentucky State
    7 225 Brian Crawford
    T Western Oregon

    2000 - Minnesota Vikings (No QB)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Chris Hovan
    DT Boston College
    2 55 Fred Robbins
    DT Wake Forest
    2 56 Michael Boireau
    DE Miami (Fla.)
    3 88 Doug Chapman
    RB Marshall
    4 106 Antonio Wilson
    LB Texas A&M-Commerce
    4 118 Tyrone Carter
    FS Minnesota
    5 165 Troy Walters
    WR Stanford
    7 240 Mike Malano
    G San Diego State
    7 244 Giles Cole
    -- Texas A&M - Kingsville
    7 248 Lewis Kelly
    G South Carolina State

    1999 - Minnesota Vikings (QB Drafted)
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 11 Daunte Culpepper
    QB Central Florida
    1 29 Dimitrius Underwood
    DE Michigan State
    2 44 Jimmy Kleinsasser
    FB North Dakota
    4 120 Kenny Wright
    CB Northwestern State-Louisiana
    4 125 Jay Humphrey
    T Texas
    5 169 Chris Jones
    LB Clemson
    6 185 Talance Sawyer
    DE Nevada-Las Vegas
    6 199 Antico Dalton
    LB Hampton
    7 236 Noel Scarlett
    DT Langston
    LOL Marr, surely you jest. The previous regime didn't just rest their laurels on Culpepper & some old vets.

    The "Beast" must have affected your memory. Fact is there were 3 young QB's brought in during the years you listed.

    Todd Bouman (2001-2002) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Romaro Miller (2001) was signed as an UDFA in 2001

    Shaun Hill (2002-2005) was signed as an UDFA in 2002
    LOL, I hear ya my friend, however, I kindof see a double standard here for you.


    Its not ok to address the OL via UDFA but it is the QB position?
    :P
    :P
    :P

    Comeon my friend, arguably the most important position and you are saying we need to look at soley on old has beens/never wases ( ;D) and some undrafted players?

    I'm talking about seriously addressing/readdressing the position each and every year.
    [/quote]

    Not a double standard on my part, but on yours. You're the one typically stating that good players can be found in UDFA & have even dropped a few names of Good QB's who went undrafted.

    During those years that you mentioned, What was our immediate needs? Did we not have more vital holes to fill in those years?

    Can you think of a BPA QB that was available then that the Vikings passed on?

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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