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  1. #21
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097835
    For all of you experts out there who are convinced it is such a good deal, please show me the money so to speak.
    I challenge you to show me the opposite.

    Show me that it isn't a good deal. That it will hurt the economy.

  2. #22
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1097836
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097835
    For all of you experts out there who are convinced it is such a good deal, please show me the money so to speak.
    I challenge you to show me the opposite.

    Show me that it isn't a good deal. That it will hurt the economy.
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/27206.html

    http://www.brookings.edu/articles/1997/summer_taxes_noll.aspx?p=1

  3. #23
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Well there is a lot of stuff. That needs to go passed the red tape. In order to get the new stadium up and running. As it needs to be built. Along with the bureaucracy and politics that goes with it.
    NFL 2013 is Here!

  4. #24
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1097836
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097835
    For all of you experts out there who are convinced it is such a good deal, please show me the money so to speak.
    I challenge you to show me the opposite.

    Show me that it isn't a good deal. That it will hurt the economy.
    The whole point is there is no data available except for the current Metrodome financial data and that, as I said before, shows that the revenue brought in by the teams did not generate enough money to run the operation and maintenance of the building without using maximum depreciation on a yearly basis.

    The right way to go about this would be to take the amounts all parties are willing to spend, then put together a cash flow projection that demonstrates the facility will be self supporting.

    You don't got to a bank, ask for a loan and then when they ask you for numbers tell them to prove to you that you won't be able to make the payments. That is totally asinine.

  5. #25
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1097836
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097835
    For all of you experts out there who are convinced it is such a good deal, please show me the money so to speak.
    I challenge you to show me the opposite.

    Show me that it isn't a good deal. That it will hurt the economy.
    Here is a bit of data for you to chew on.
    http://www.leg.state.mn.us/docs/2010/other/100714.pdf

    This 2009 audit clearly shows that the dome revenue does not meet it expenditures. It shows an operating loss and if you look back at the past reports they will show that the Vikings generating income has led to similar losses for years at the facility.
    Now, if the new stadium is not appreciably larger in terms of seating capacity and if the team is getting the revenue from the club seats, naming rights and luxury suites, then where is the money going to come from to make up the difference that will lead to break even on the balance sheet with the addition of the 600 million dollar mortgage?

    2009 2008
    Total net assets $ 27,664,808 $ 33,178,607
    So the net assets decreased from 33.1 to 27.6.(Million)
    Commissionís Activities
    As noted earlier, net assets serve as a useful indicator of the Commissionís financial
    position. In fiscal year 2009, the Commissionís net assets decreased by $5,513,799 (16.6
    percent) to $27,664,808. The Commissionís net assets of $12,168,573 (44 percent)
    reflect its investment in capital assets less accumulated depreciation. These assets are
    comprised of the Metrodome stadium site, stadium building, and stadium equipment.
    The Commission uses these capital assets to provide services to users, their fans, and the
    public; consequently, these assets are not available for future spending
    Then to the balance sheet:

    Total operating revenues 50,854,695

    Total operating expenses 57,386,038
    Total operating loss (6,531,343)
    Net cash provided (used) by operating activities $ (3,089,982)

  6. #26
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    I'm no economist nor am I going to spout the numbers you want Floyd..

    But just ask the Pohlads how their money flow is going after getting their own digs.
    Vegans are eating the rainforests. =(

  7. #27
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "JFormo" #1097865
    I'm no economist nor am I going to spout the numbers you want Floyd..

    But just ask the Pohlads how their money flow is going after getting their own digs.
    Well, as always any new digs will get a good start out of the gate.

    Feel free to ask him again in 5 years especially if the product on the field is as good as it is now....

    Plus, you are talking about what, 82 games in a season vs 8 and 550 million vs 1.1 billion so you are working with a different sort of metrics.

    Just to put the amount of money into perspective lets look at the new stadium in Dallas because it is the closest thing we have to look at.

    Their stadium cost 1.2 Billion
    Ours the same

    Their revenue according to Forbes is 420 million/year
    Ours is currently 221 Million.

    Their stadium holds 80-100,000
    Ours is slated for 65-70,000.

    So we are looking to have to increase our revenue by 200 million a year to hit the same number as Dallas, but at the same time we are going to possibly have 10-15,000 less fans per game conservatively speaking. That seems a bit of a hard number to make up in a smaller market.


    In the end if the numbers work I don't have a problem, but I am not just going to quietly accept something that doesn't look right.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116680460638092.html


    In Indianapolis, the Colts put in a far smaller percentage of the cost of the $719 million, covered stadium. (The Colts contributed $100 million, as opposed to the $125 million the Twins paid to the ballpark project.)

    But what's destroying the financing of the stadium in Indianapolis is the sweetheart lease arrangement the Colts signed. The public is stuck with operating costs, which are running about three times the anticipated $7 million annual costs.

    City and county officials in Indianapolis are pleading with state legislators and the Colts for a "bailout" to solve their severe cash-flow problems. Not surprisingly, neither the Colts nor taxpayers nor legislators are excited about putting more going into the stadium.

  8. #28
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097869
    Quote Originally Posted by "JFormo" #1097865
    I'm no economist nor am I going to spout the numbers you want Floyd..

    But just ask the Pohlads how their money flow is going after getting their own digs.
    Well, as always any new digs will get a good start out of the gate.

    Feel free to ask him again in 5 years especially if the product on the field is as good as it is now....

    Plus, you are talking about what, 82 games in a season vs 8 and 550 million vs 1.1 billion so you are working with a different sort of metrics.

    Just to put the amount of money into perspective lets look at the new stadium in Dallas because it is the closest thing we have to look at.

    Their stadium cost 1.2 Billion
    Ours the same

    Their revenue according to Forbes is 420 million/year
    Ours is currently 221 Million.

    Their stadium holds 80-100,000
    Ours is slated for 65-70,000.

    So we are looking to have to increase our revenue by 200 million a year to hit the same number as Dallas, but at the same time we are going to possibly have 10-15,000 less fans per game conservatively speaking. That seems a bit of a hard number to make up in a smaller market.


    In the end if the numbers work I don't have a problem, but I am not just going to quietly accept something that doesn't look right.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116680460638092.html


    In Indianapolis, the Colts put in a far smaller percentage of the cost of the $719 million, covered stadium. (The Colts contributed $100 million, as opposed to the $125 million the Twins paid to the ballpark project.)

    But what's destroying the financing of the stadium in Indianapolis is the sweetheart lease arrangement the Colts signed. The public is stuck with operating costs, which are running about three times the anticipated $7 million annual costs.

    City and county officials in Indianapolis are pleading with state legislators and the Colts for a "bailout" to solve their severe cash-flow problems. Not surprisingly, neither the Colts nor taxpayers nor legislators are excited about putting more going into the stadium.
    Sort of frightening when you rip away the veil of "What it could be" and color it with the brush of cold, hard, economic facts, isn't it?

    Yes, the truth is that the Vikings stadium will likely NEVER pay for itself - from the public's point of view. The public will be on the hook for a lot of hidden costs, while the return benefits will be little or nothing....

    ...except, you'll have an NFL franchise.

    So, essentially, it all comes down to bragging rights.

    That's an awful lot to pay for bragging rights....

    Caine

  9. #29
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1097876
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097869
    Quote Originally Posted by "JFormo" #1097865
    I'm no economist nor am I going to spout the numbers you want Floyd..

    But just ask the Pohlads how their money flow is going after getting their own digs.
    Well, as always any new digs will get a good start out of the gate.

    Feel free to ask him again in 5 years especially if the product on the field is as good as it is now....

    Plus, you are talking about what, 82 games in a season vs 8 and 550 million vs 1.1 billion so you are working with a different sort of metrics.

    Just to put the amount of money into perspective lets look at the new stadium in Dallas because it is the closest thing we have to look at.

    Their stadium cost 1.2 Billion
    Ours the same

    Their revenue according to Forbes is 420 million/year
    Ours is currently 221 Million.

    Their stadium holds 80-100,000
    Ours is slated for 65-70,000.

    So we are looking to have to increase our revenue by 200 million a year to hit the same number as Dallas, but at the same time we are going to possibly have 10-15,000 less fans per game conservatively speaking. That seems a bit of a hard number to make up in a smaller market.


    In the end if the numbers work I don't have a problem, but I am not just going to quietly accept something that doesn't look right.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116680460638092.html


    In Indianapolis, the Colts put in a far smaller percentage of the cost of the $719 million, covered stadium. (The Colts contributed $100 million, as opposed to the $125 million the Twins paid to the ballpark project.)

    But what's destroying the financing of the stadium in Indianapolis is the sweetheart lease arrangement the Colts signed. The public is stuck with operating costs, which are running about three times the anticipated $7 million annual costs.

    City and county officials in Indianapolis are pleading with state legislators and the Colts for a "bailout" to solve their severe cash-flow problems. Not surprisingly, neither the Colts nor taxpayers nor legislators are excited about putting more going into the stadium.
    Sort of frightening when you rip away the veil of "What it could be" and color it with the brush of cold, hard, economic facts, isn't it?

    Yes, the truth is that the Vikings stadium will likely NEVER pay for itself - from the public's point of view. The public will be on the hook for a lot of hidden costs, while the return benefits will be little or nothing....

    ...except, you'll have an NFL franchise.

    So, essentially, it all comes down to bragging rights.

    That's an awful lot to pay for bragging rights....

    Caine
    IMO, it comes down to the source of what taxes or income they are using in their "operating cost" financials.

    The tax revenue made on $6-$7 per beer sales on game days alone, must be in the millions annually.

    It would be hard to believe that tax revenue alone from game day sales & directly related tax revenue (parking, etc) doesn't generate $21 mil annually in Indianapolis.

    The states realize they are making money or the franchises would be let go & they wouldn't be trying to entice teams back once they lose one.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #30
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    Re: NFL will help with Vikings stadium

    LMAO.

    If you really believe the govt has any concept of cost or value I have a bridge that hasn't fallen yet that I want to sell you.


    I am still looking fr all of this data that shows how the team is going to increase revenue by 200 million dollars a year with over 10,000 fewer seats than Cowboys stadium and with the team not sharing revenue on the club seats or the luxury boxes.

    And I am still waiting for someone like IBP to show me how the new stadium will cash flow when the old one can't and it is paid for.


    There is a limit to what the area will support and IMHO this plan exceeds it.

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