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  1. #21
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "nfl-forums" wrote:
    [quote]"Del Rio" wrote:
    1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.


    Sure, Tice and Pepp could have definitely had a part in it. My point is still the same - the Vikings, as an organization, screwed this one up bad. At the time a lot of us were thinking this might be a good thing. Well, hindsight is 20/20, and although I think an argument can still be made for the benefits of the trade, I don't think we can say that we got the better end of the deal.

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    2. Culpepper Trade.
    Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

    I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.
    Even if Pepp was causing the grief, the organization did not do what was necessary to satisfy him. Case in point: Pepp wanted to meet with Wilf about his contract. Action by Vikes: Wilf doesn't show, has someone else do his dirty work.

    Pepp was arguably the most important player on the team. I don't blame the organization for not giving him money, but franchise players are usually kept 'in the loop' on major issues and have access to management.

    The Timberpups are a good example of this. Whenever they make a move, they at least tell Garnett - he's the franchise, and they make sure he knows that.

    Pepp may have been partially at fault, but the organization didn't really do anything to help the scenario.


    "Del Rio" wrote:
    3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

    First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.
    If you look at what Tice was looking for when he came in, he wanted a strong defensive team and a good running team. The defense did take a huge step forward under Tice, and we had a good running attack (with the exception of last year). I think given the changes he was making, and the obvious holes that we had which were relatively easy to fix in FA, Tice should have had one more year.

    Its a debatable point, though - just my opinion. :wink:

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

    I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.
    Difference of opinion. I think he is a great #2 receiver, but not #1. I would, however, hate to see someone with his after the catch ability leave the team.

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

    I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.
    I'll address this in another post - don't want to get overly long with this one.


    "Del Rio" wrote:
    6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

    This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.
    We'll see as it plays out. If we land Hutch, then the talent of the players may make up for the lack of coaching, but the idea of having a coach by committee approach just doesn't sit right with me.

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

    If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO
    Its more than the Randy Ratio - its an unproven system. There's a reason most organizations have one person who is responsible for a set of responsibility, and another for another set of responsibilities, etc. Its because it works. Authority by committee is a recipe for power struggles and lack of action. From an organizational management standpoint, I don't think this is a good idea. It will work fine when everyone agrees, but what happens when a fundamental philosophical difference arises?


    "Del Rio" wrote:
    8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

    Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.
    I think we will see that some of the new coaches we hired are great - but at the same time, we will likely have some duds. Its just the way things work. I guess I'm thinking about this like a stock portfolio - you want to put your portfolio together with some proven winners and some rising stars. If you choose only rising stars, you are likely to lose big somewhere.

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

    We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.
    Wilf has proven that he doesn't piss around, but we don't know anything about Foley or even Childress and whether they piss around. Wilf is just signing the checks, these other guys are calling the shots.

    It was pretty widely reported that we were interested in Jackson, but he didn't even make an appearance...why not?

    I see a lot of blind faith in the management group, which is fine. IMO, though, I think that there are some serious issues which need to be questioned. We are dealing with an ENTIRE staff, from the owner to the coaches, who are entering this football game in positions that they are new at. Assuming that they have some master plan that coaches and owners who have been in the league for years have not been able to put together is wishful thinking. I just am not seeing enough positive moves to think that they have some hidden agenda which will shock the league.
    I am too fat ATM to take the time to break up all of that again. I will say however that what you see as blind faith I see as blind chicken little.

    A few things that seemed important enough to respond to at the moment.

    I don't feel the defense took a huge step forward under Tice. In fact they ended at 28th overall in total defense his final year here. Which is worse then it was when he took over. Even the run defense got progressivley worse under his tenure.

    The Culpepper thing, I knew you were going to say that. You know I don't know about you but personally I don't want my team to powder any players ass in an attempt to make him stay. I don't want my team to have to bend over backwords and kiss ass for a guy who has over 150 turnovers in his career.


    Again well thought out and fun to read, we just don't agree. There is not enough solid fact in either of our arguments to prove anyone wrong, so we do what men do and agree to disagree. In the end we root for the Vikes, if we do good: I will not be surprised, you will be in for a shock, and we both will be happy.

  2. #22
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "badbois" wrote:
    lot of you are talking about trust. trust is earned. these guys are rookie coaches who have accomplished little. what they are doing looks bad and there isn't much out there that could redeem them. if they don't get hutch, this offseason has to be seen as a failure.

    In your opinion!

    I like what they are doing, and I am just fine with it! They are the people that are getting paid to judge the talent, put schemes and players in place! None of us fans are! How do you know that everything they wanted has not turned out exactly as they planned?

    The only thing that will tell how this new administration will do is time and I will give them 3 years to judge them, I gave Tice 4!
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  3. #23
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "badbois" wrote:
    lot of you are talking about trust. trust is earned. these guys are rookie coaches who have accomplished little. what they are doing looks bad and there isn't much out there that could redeem them. if they don't get hutch, this offseason has to be seen as a failure.
    LOL, what they are doing?

    You have no idea what they are doing. The defensive Cordinator is not calling up guys asking them to vistit.

    The front office moves are Rob and Brad, I'm sure brad consults but you are saying what they are doing, when in fact your opinion is being based on what they are not doing, taking it a step forward....what they are not doing that you think they should be.

    I'm gonna bet they know what they are doing a tiny bit more then us.

    I have no idea how people freely judge when not one single practice or game has been played. I understand optimism and pessimism, I like to wait until there is actually something to talk about before one side pits against the other.

  4. #24
    Prophet Guest

    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    Complete lunacy badbois. The coaching staff will be fine, at least they have the ability to think and have said they will fit their schemes to the personnel they have on the field. Nobody knows who the final 53 will be yet. The offseason is young.

    They put their best effort into getting Hutchinson and most of us have our fingers crossed. If they don't get him you still have to give them an A+ for effort. Chester Taylor is a great pickup. Sure, I would have loved to see Edge on the team, but Taylor will fit the system fine and comes with an affordable price tag. It's all about the team, not some heros that you sign up based on name recognition. If the players buy into the system and the team chemistry is there anything is possible.

    nfl-forums, I can see where you're coming from on that last post regarding some of the pickups. I don't necessarily agree with them, but you give sound reasoning. Pat Williams will continue to be a beast. You can call the defense a cover 2 or the offense a WCO, but we all know there is a lot of variability in how these are implemented based on the players you have on the field. The future looks bright.

    The time-frame for analyizing the transactions is different than many people like to give it. Some people are already saying the offseason is a flop which is so ridiculous I can't even believe I respond to it. The grand plan is not known to us. We see tidbits of information tossed out to us by the press.

    Sure, it would be a small miracle to have the Vikings take the Big Dance in '06. They will be closer to achieving that goal with a competent coaching staff and an owner that wants to win. There is nothing more satisfying then knowing that the Redneck/Tice era is behind us. That is enough to fuel the fire. The rebuiding of a team is obviously the next step when ownership and coaching staffs are overhauled. The future is bright.

  5. #25
    DarrinNelsonguy's Avatar
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    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "nfl-forums" wrote:
    I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

    1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
    2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
    3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
    4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
    5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
    6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
    7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
    8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
    9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


    Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

    All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

    I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

    How do you or anyone else know the are FUBARing up the team? The guys in charge no more about football that you, me or any other fans. They seem to have a distinct direction and plan that they are following to make this a 1st class organization. They are signing guys that they believe will fit their system and a reminder this is not Fantasy football or Madden football 06 offseason this is the real thing, so GET OVER IT WE ARE NOT GOING TO SIGN ALL THE BIG NAME FREE AGENTS!!!!!!!!!

    You need to sit back, RELAX, and put some faith in the franchise and the staff that Zygi has in place. The team has not even played a whole season so how can you possibly know if their plan is wrong. Patience is a virtue and must be learned by you and others as well.

    To paraphrase a quote from Caine in another thread "We don't need all the prima donna's and Superstars, because if you look at the Patriots and Steelers they seem to do fine with TEAM players."

    A closing note on the Culpepper trade why keep a guy around who doesn't want be a part of the TEAM? Remember: TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS NOT INDIVIDUALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn t work hard."

  6. #26
    nfl-forums's Avatar
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    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    Ok, I'll say this to show that I am not completely predicting the doom of the Vikings.

    When Tice was fired, I said (not here, but elsewhere) that if they chose to get rid of Tice, then they need to overhaul the team. I am glad to see that they are making that effort at least. At the same time, though, I really did not expect an overhaul to bring a sudden rise to glory.

    All of you who disagree with me make good points: we haven't seen the team play yet, the offeseason IS still young, and yes, those calling the shots DO kow a lot more than I do.

    I think there is reason for optimism among the ranks of the faithful. Childress is a smart man and is an experienced coach. There are a lot of rising stars among the coaches, which is a great sign.

    History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

    Thanks for the responses - I am happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to discuss this more - I'm not a Viking hater. I just love speculating and analyzing my favorite team.

  7. #27
    Prophet Guest

    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "nfl-forums" wrote:
    ...History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.
    Sure that is a possibility. I think it would take a small miracle for the team to come out of the gates a superpower. Could happen, but that is mostly driven with my purple shades on. I am willing to wait for a few years for the team and coaches to gel in the new system if need be. I've waited for over four decades as a fan so what's a few more years.

    My biggest concern is dealing with the lunacy on these forums when/if the Vikings don't come out of the gate strong in '06. There are a lot of younger fans that have never suffered through very many painful years (even though every Tice year was excruciatingly painful for me).

    I am optimistic in a longer time-frame. Sure, I want them to succeed every year, but wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few years under a revamped system. Either way, I'll still be a fan, you can count on that.

  8. #28
    DarrinNelsonguy's Avatar
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    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "nfl-forums" wrote:
    Ok, I'll say this to show that I am not completely predicting the doom of the Vikings.

    When Tice was fired, I said (not here, but elsewhere) that if they chose to get rid of Tice, then they need to overhaul the team. I am glad to see that they are making that effort at least. At the same time, though, I really did not expect an overhaul to bring a sudden rise to glory.

    All of you who disagree with me make good points: we haven't seen the team play yet, the offeseason IS still young, and yes, those calling the shots DO kow a lot more than I do.

    I think there is reason for optimism among the ranks of the faithful. Childress is a smart man and is an experienced coach. There are a lot of rising stars among the coaches, which is a great sign.

    History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

    Thanks for the responses - I am happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to discuss this more - I'm not a Viking hater. I just love speculating and analyzing my favorite team.
    We all have one common goal as fans at that is to win a Championship and the great thing is we all believe we know the best way to accomplish the goal.
    "Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn t work hard."

  9. #29
    badbois's Avatar
    badbois is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    somehow I dodn't think tice's 3 yr plan involved not even being able to retain an offensive coordinator.

  10. #30
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: New Ownership FUBARing this Team

    "nfl-forums" wrote:
    Ok, I'll say this to show that I am not completely predicting the doom of the Vikings.

    When Tice was fired, I said (not here, but elsewhere) that if they chose to get rid of Tice, then they need to overhaul the team. I am glad to see that they are making that effort at least. At the same time, though, I really did not expect an overhaul to bring a sudden rise to glory.

    All of you who disagree with me make good points: we haven't seen the team play yet, the offeseason IS still young, and yes, those calling the shots DO kow a lot more than I do.

    I think there is reason for optimism among the ranks of the faithful. Childress is a smart man and is an experienced coach. There are a lot of rising stars among the coaches, which is a great sign.

    History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

    Thanks for the responses - I am happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to discuss this more - I'm not a Viking hater. I just love speculating and analyzing my favorite team.
    I would find 10 wins this year very enjoyable. 9 wins would even help me sleep at night. We start talking 8-8 or less I may be a little worried. I don't expect miracles this year, I do expect improvement though IMO.

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