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  1. #21
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    I wonder what it would take to lure Willie Roaf out of retirement.

    Probably a contender :-

  2. #22
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "mountainviking" wrote:
    I'll give you that V, the OLINE is not our only problem.
    Ferguson has already dropped several passes.
    TJack gave that game to the Lions!
    Chester Taylor, Tony Richardson, and Williamson have missed games due to injury.
    Rice, Wade, and Shank have looked pretty good when given the oppurtunity, but the pressure and sacks have limited the opportunities...

    If it wasn't for Adrian and Mewelde making people miss, we'd probably have less than half our yardage so far.
    I like what both you and V have to say, but both of you also have to admit that although we have multiple problems all of them can be improved on in a very short time if the OL was performing better.

    Inexperienced QB's do perform well if they have two things in thier favor, a good running game (we have a great one) and a OL can protect them long enough for them to make the correct reads in the passing game.
    Our guys, unfortunately aren't doing the later.

    If the OL doesn't give the QB time to read the Defense (after the snap) then the young Jedi will suck, the running game will be degraded and our backs will start getting hurt.
    2 out of those 3 have already happened.


    TJ started getting pressure and he threw the ball around in the Lions game.
    Thats bad but to be expected and we already have had 1 FB and 1 RB on the pine because of injury.
    All very bad indicators that can be directly traced back to bad OL play my friends.
    dead on marrdro, and exactly my points.
    to say that we dont have the talent at the skill positions is ignoring the fact that we can't know that if they dont get the oppurtunity due to poor line play.
    V continues to say i'm ignoring his points, but when you make a broad claim like we dont have the skill position players when they can't even get there hands on the ball cuz of too much pressure, it's ignoring the main problem.


    now this week they looked the best they have in pass blocking this year. there was still decent pressure but the line gave holcomb good protection on many more plays than i've seen all year.
    which showed in our production stat wise.

    that's why you were able to see the skills of a sidney rice, shiancoe, williamson.
    problem is holcomb is not, and will never be the answer.
    he's a stop gap, till your starter gets back, nothing more.
    if tjack was healthy enough to dress and step in if something happened to holcomb, i'm not following why he wouldnt just start.
    if that's farve he's in there.
    if childress is gonna start backpedalling after he put all his eggs in tjacks basket, than he will not last very long as our head coach.


    my point overall is, there is no problem with our skill positions.
    running back, wr, and te have talent there.
    obviously there is still a question at qb but thats why tjack has to play to prove if he is the answer.
    thats gonna be on childress.
    but the o-line has to play more like they did this past week if they are gonna give our skill players any chance of proving their worth.
    so if you can't see that point, than i am wasting my words on you V.
    Let me quote my last post:

    "'Crap' from V? I simply made a sound argument on how there are other ways to beat the blitz, but we don't have the talent to do it. Clearly my words have been wasted on you.

    There are a plethora of examples, the Cowboys last year and the Texans this year to name two, of teams had solved the problem of QB pressure simply by putting in a better QB in there.

    The OL has had trouble pass blocking. Holcomb has been hesitant in the pocket. Jackson made some bad decisions two games ago. Those are all facts. If you want to single out the OL as the offense's only problem, fine. IMO, there are other problems that exist.

    We can choose to try and pick up the blitz, or we can choose to beat the blitz, which is what the WCO calles for (Favre, McNabb, and Elway come to mind). However, right now, with an underperforming OL, and a lack of talent at the skill positions, we can't do either well. I don't know how that does not make sense to you. "

    Now, you have come back and said that the OL was better, but Holcomb wasn't good enough to get the job done. How is that any different from what I said? I said all along that Holcomb was the main problem, and that our skill positions aren't dangerous enough for other teams to stop blitzing. Even with the nice day that Wade and Rice had, GB never stopped blitzing. Even when Holcomb had all day to throw, there were times were he missed the mark. Eventually, we need a QB who will expose a blitzing defense. I hope TJ is that guy, but he has not yet proven that he can do that either.

    Stop being stubborn. Realize that you basically agreed with my last post.
    A week ago you were saying OL was the problem. Now you are saying the problem is part OL and part QB. Hmmm.
    V it's easy to say you are right after the line had one good game.
    it's like me saying tavaris is definitely the future if he has a derek anderson against cincy type game.
    it's one game.
    3 subpar games and one decent game does not change the point.
    you said our skill positions are not good enough.
    tavaris i'm not sure of, though i'm opptimistic, but you wrote off everyone who catches passes along with it.
    if anything the play of the o-line last game proves my point exactly.
    that we do have guys who can beat the blitz, but now we have to prove with tjack that we have the qb to do it.
    if i had to pin a blame on the last game it would be holcomb cuz the plays were there.
    4 ints against detroit i dont pin solely on tavaris cuz the time wasn't there.
    it's early and things can still get better, but up until this week, which this thread started before, the line was our biggest problem.
    LET THAT WHICH DOES NOT MATTER, TRULY SLIDE

  3. #23
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    It's a combination of many things.

    The line and QB do their job and the WR drops the ball

    The QB drops back and the WR runs a great route, but the OL breaks down and the QB gets sacked or has to dump the ball.

    The line blocks their man and the WR runs the route but the QB's throw is off.

    There is plenty of blame to go around but the buck ultimately stops at the coach for better or worse.

  4. #24
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    It's a combination of many things.

    The line and QB do their job and the WR drops the ball

    The QB drops back and the WR runs a great route, but the OL breaks down and the QB gets sacked or has to dump the ball.

    The line blocks their man and the WR runs the route but the QB's throw is off.

    There is plenty of blame to go around but the buck ultimately stops at the coach for better or worse.
    that i can agree with just cuz if the same problems persist who else can you blame?
    but as i said earlier i did see alot of promise in the last game.
    but just like every game where another qb has started the last 2 years, you always ask that question of, "if so and so would have started instead i wonder if we woulda won?"
    that's what i've been asking ever since this past sunday, if tavaris starts after having a rough game against detroit, does he bounch back and make the one play that would have beat kc?
    i know theres no point to it, but it's something i keep asking myself.
    LET THAT WHICH DOES NOT MATTER, TRULY SLIDE

  5. #25
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    When hicks is looking to be one of the better players on your line (ie. not getting beat as much as Cook or McKinnie) you know you're in trouble. The whole McKinnie food poisoning thing leaves me a little more assured that he will bounce back but he hasn't looked good even when not sick. Cook needs more time before he's starter material- good size but looks lost out there a majority of the time.

    If you look at a lot of the plays in the packer game, Holcomb stepped forward and to the left (behind hutch/birk) to avoid the sack. That pretty much sums up our line.

  6. #26
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "mountainviking" wrote:
    I'll give you that V, the OLINE is not our only problem.
    Ferguson has already dropped several passes.
    TJack gave that game to the Lions!
    Chester Taylor, Tony Richardson, and Williamson have missed games due to injury.
    Rice, Wade, and Shank have looked pretty good when given the oppurtunity, but the pressure and sacks have limited the opportunities...

    If it wasn't for Adrian and Mewelde making people miss, we'd probably have less than half our yardage so far.
    I like what both you and V have to say, but both of you also have to admit that although we have multiple problems all of them can be improved on in a very short time if the OL was performing better.

    Inexperienced QB's do perform well if they have two things in thier favor, a good running game (we have a great one) and a OL can protect them long enough for them to make the correct reads in the passing game.
    Our guys, unfortunately aren't doing the later.

    If the OL doesn't give the QB time to read the Defense (after the snap) then the young Jedi will suck, the running game will be degraded and our backs will start getting hurt.
    2 out of those 3 have already happened.


    TJ started getting pressure and he threw the ball around in the Lions game.
    Thats bad but to be expected and we already have had 1 FB and 1 RB on the pine because of injury.
    All very bad indicators that can be directly traced back to bad OL play my friends.
    dead on marrdro, and exactly my points.
    to say that we dont have the talent at the skill positions is ignoring the fact that we can't know that if they dont get the oppurtunity due to poor line play.
    V continues to say i'm ignoring his points, but when you make a broad claim like we dont have the skill position players when they can't even get there hands on the ball cuz of too much pressure, it's ignoring the main problem.


    now this week they looked the best they have in pass blocking this year. there was still decent pressure but the line gave holcomb good protection on many more plays than i've seen all year.
    which showed in our production stat wise.

    that's why you were able to see the skills of a sidney rice, shiancoe, williamson.
    problem is holcomb is not, and will never be the answer.
    he's a stop gap, till your starter gets back, nothing more.
    if tjack was healthy enough to dress and step in if something happened to holcomb, i'm not following why he wouldnt just start.
    if that's farve he's in there.
    if childress is gonna start backpedalling after he put all his eggs in tjacks basket, than he will not last very long as our head coach.


    my point overall is, there is no problem with our skill positions.
    running back, wr, and te have talent there.
    obviously there is still a question at qb but thats why tjack has to play to prove if he is the answer.
    thats gonna be on childress.
    but the o-line has to play more like they did this past week if they are gonna give our skill players any chance of proving their worth.
    so if you can't see that point, than i am wasting my words on you V.
    Let me quote my last post:

    "'Crap' from V? I simply made a sound argument on how there are other ways to beat the blitz, but we don't have the talent to do it. Clearly my words have been wasted on you.

    There are a plethora of examples, the Cowboys last year and the Texans this year to name two, of teams had solved the problem of QB pressure simply by putting in a better QB in there.

    The OL has had trouble pass blocking. Holcomb has been hesitant in the pocket. Jackson made some bad decisions two games ago. Those are all facts. If you want to single out the OL as the offense's only problem, fine. IMO, there are other problems that exist.

    We can choose to try and pick up the blitz, or we can choose to beat the blitz, which is what the WCO calles for (Favre, McNabb, and Elway come to mind). However, right now, with an underperforming OL, and a lack of talent at the skill positions, we can't do either well. I don't know how that does not make sense to you. "

    Now, you have come back and said that the OL was better, but Holcomb wasn't good enough to get the job done. How is that any different from what I said? I said all along that Holcomb was the main problem, and that our skill positions aren't dangerous enough for other teams to stop blitzing. Even with the nice day that Wade and Rice had, GB never stopped blitzing. Even when Holcomb had all day to throw, there were times were he missed the mark. Eventually, we need a QB who will expose a blitzing defense. I hope TJ is that guy, but he has not yet proven that he can do that either.

    Stop being stubborn. Realize that you basically agreed with my last post.
    A week ago you were saying OL was the problem. Now you are saying the problem is part OL and part QB. Hmmm.
    V it's easy to say you are right after the line had one good game.
    it's like me saying tavaris is definitely the future if he has a derek anderson against cincy type game.
    it's one game.
    3 subpar games and one decent game does not change the point.
    you said our skill positions are not good enough.
    tavaris i'm not sure of, though i'm opptimistic, but you wrote off everyone who catches passes along with it.
    if anything the play of the o-line last game proves my point exactly.
    that we do have guys who can beat the blitz, but now we have to prove with tjack that we have the qb to do it.
    if i had to pin a blame on the last game it would be holcomb cuz the plays were there.
    4 ints against detroit i dont pin solely on tavaris cuz the time wasn't there.
    it's early and things can still get better, but up until this week, which this thread started before, the line was our biggest problem.
    I never wrote off our skill positions. You brought up a comparison to the 2001 Patriots, and I said they we are not as talented at WR as the 2001 Patriots. That is not writing them off, that is the truth.

    Otherwise, my main complaint, throughout this whole argument, has been that Holcomb sucks. Look it up. I say time and time again. Holcomb sucks. This last week, we got the better pass protection which you wanted so desperately. Guess what happened? Holcomb sucked. Now, you are saying Holcomb sucks, and I'm supposed to give you a free pass after you criticized me for a full week for saying the exact same thing?

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    THE VIKINGS SUCK BECAUSE ..... we can't block anyone for longer than 2 seconds, therefore we can not even get the ball into our wrs hands.
    we can't complain about the play of wrs and qbs when they are not even getting a chance to show what they can do cuz the qb has to throw the ball 2 seconds early or take a sack.
    was it me or was there a problem up and down the whole line this week and not just on the right side?


    if we don't get this fixed we are never gonna know how tavaris is or any of these young wrs.
    2 seconds?
    Watch the game again. On some of those sacks Holcomb had 5-7 seconds. Apparently Holcomb didn't have a grasp of our offense. He totally missed the part about 3-step drops and getting rid of the ball.

    This whole OL hate thing is just an excuse for our QB play. Holcomb showed no poise in the pocket. He was too scared to step up and delver throws. The only thing Holcomb did well was not throw a pick.
    Moreover, if as a coach you recognize you are having trouble pass blocking, you have to do something about, you can't just do the same thing all game and expect it to work. We have seen Childress do this before.

    When we get Taylor and TJ back, we'll improve a bit. Taylor will help us depend on the run a bit more, and TJ will at least be able to scramble a little instead of standing in the pocket waiting to get sacked.
    Read the date:
    September 25th. At that time you were blaming it completely on the OL. Your tune has changed.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  7. #27
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=mountainviking link=topic=38326.msg646505#msg646505 date=1191084371]
    I'll give you that V, the OLINE is not our only problem.
    Ferguson has already dropped several passes.
    TJack gave that game to the Lions!
    Chester Taylor, Tony Richardson, and Williamson have missed games due to injury.
    Rice, Wade, and Shank have looked pretty good when given the oppurtunity, but the pressure and sacks have limited the opportunities...

    If it wasn't for Adrian and Mewelde making people miss, we'd probably have less than half our yardage so far.
    I like what both you and V have to say, but both of you also have to admit that although we have multiple problems all of them can be improved on in a very short time if the OL was performing better.

    Inexperienced QB's do perform well if they have two things in thier favor, a good running game (we have a great one) and a OL can protect them long enough for them to make the correct reads in the passing game.
    Our guys, unfortunately aren't doing the later.

    If the OL doesn't give the QB time to read the Defense (after the snap) then the young Jedi will suck, the running game will be degraded and our backs will start getting hurt.
    2 out of those 3 have already happened.


    TJ started getting pressure and he threw the ball around in the Lions game.
    Thats bad but to be expected and we already have had 1 FB and 1 RB on the pine because of injury.
    All very bad indicators that can be directly traced back to bad OL play my friends.
    dead on marrdro, and exactly my points.
    to say that we dont have the talent at the skill positions is ignoring the fact that we can't know that if they dont get the oppurtunity due to poor line play.
    V continues to say i'm ignoring his points, but when you make a broad claim like we dont have the skill position players when they can't even get there hands on the ball cuz of too much pressure, it's ignoring the main problem.


    now this week they looked the best they have in pass blocking this year. there was still decent pressure but the line gave holcomb good protection on many more plays than i've seen all year.
    which showed in our production stat wise.

    that's why you were able to see the skills of a sidney rice, shiancoe, williamson.
    problem is holcomb is not, and will never be the answer.
    he's a stop gap, till your starter gets back, nothing more.
    if tjack was healthy enough to dress and step in if something happened to holcomb, i'm not following why he wouldnt just start.
    if that's farve he's in there.
    if childress is gonna start backpedalling after he put all his eggs in tjacks basket, than he will not last very long as our head coach.


    my point overall is, there is no problem with our skill positions.
    running back, wr, and te have talent there.
    obviously there is still a question at qb but thats why tjack has to play to prove if he is the answer.
    thats gonna be on childress.
    but the o-line has to play more like they did this past week if they are gonna give our skill players any chance of proving their worth.
    so if you can't see that point, than i am wasting my words on you V.
    Let me quote my last post:

    "'Crap' from V? I simply made a sound argument on how there are other ways to beat the blitz, but we don't have the talent to do it. Clearly my words have been wasted on you.

    There are a plethora of examples, the Cowboys last year and the Texans this year to name two, of teams had solved the problem of QB pressure simply by putting in a better QB in there.

    The OL has had trouble pass blocking. Holcomb has been hesitant in the pocket. Jackson made some bad decisions two games ago. Those are all facts. If you want to single out the OL as the offense's only problem, fine. IMO, there are other problems that exist.

    We can choose to try and pick up the blitz, or we can choose to beat the blitz, which is what the WCO calles for (Favre, McNabb, and Elway come to mind). However, right now, with an underperforming OL, and a lack of talent at the skill positions, we can't do either well. I don't know how that does not make sense to you. "

    Now, you have come back and said that the OL was better, but Holcomb wasn't good enough to get the job done. How is that any different from what I said? I said all along that Holcomb was the main problem, and that our skill positions aren't dangerous enough for other teams to stop blitzing. Even with the nice day that Wade and Rice had, GB never stopped blitzing. Even when Holcomb had all day to throw, there were times were he missed the mark. Eventually, we need a QB who will expose a blitzing defense. I hope TJ is that guy, but he has not yet proven that he can do that either.

    Stop being stubborn. Realize that you basically agreed with my last post.
    A week ago you were saying OL was the problem. Now you are saying the problem is part OL and part QB. Hmmm.
    V it's easy to say you are right after the line had one good game.
    it's like me saying tavaris is definitely the future if he has a derek anderson against cincy type game.
    it's one game.
    3 subpar games and one decent game does not change the point.
    you said our skill positions are not good enough.
    tavaris i'm not sure of, though i'm opptimistic, but you wrote off everyone who catches passes along with it.
    if anything the play of the o-line last game proves my point exactly.
    that we do have guys who can beat the blitz, but now we have to prove with tjack that we have the qb to do it.
    if i had to pin a blame on the last game it would be holcomb cuz the plays were there.
    4 ints against detroit i dont pin solely on tavaris cuz the time wasn't there.
    it's early and things can still get better, but up until this week, which this thread started before, the line was our biggest problem.
    I never wrote off our skill positions. You brought up a comparison to the 2001 Patriots, and I said they we are not as talented at WR as the 2001 Patriots. That is not writing them off, that is the truth.

    Otherwise, my main complaint, throughout this whole argument, has been that Holcomb sucks. Look it up. I say time and time again. Holcomb sucks. This last week, we got the better pass protection which you wanted so desperately. Guess what happened? Holcomb sucked. Now, you are saying Holcomb sucks, and I'm supposed to give you a free pass after you criticized me for a full week for saying the exact same thing?

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    THE VIKINGS SUCK BECAUSE ..... we can't block anyone for longer than 2 seconds, therefore we can not even get the ball into our wrs hands.
    we can't complain about the play of wrs and qbs when they are not even getting a chance to show what they can do cuz the qb has to throw the ball 2 seconds early or take a sack.
    was it me or was there a problem up and down the whole line this week and not just on the right side?


    if we don't get this fixed we are never gonna know how tavaris is or any of these young wrs.
    2 seconds?
    Watch the game again. On some of those sacks Holcomb had 5-7 seconds. Apparently Holcomb didn't have a grasp of our offense. He totally missed the part about 3-step drops and getting rid of the ball.

    This whole OL hate thing is just an excuse for our QB play. Holcomb showed no poise in the pocket. He was too scared to step up and delver throws. The only thing Holcomb did well was not throw a pick.
    Moreover, if as a coach you recognize you are having trouble pass blocking, you have to do something about, you can't just do the same thing all game and expect it to work. We have seen Childress do this before.

    When we get Taylor and TJ back, we'll improve a bit. Taylor will help us depend on the run a bit more, and TJ will at least be able to scramble a little instead of standing in the pocket waiting to get sacked.
    Read the date:
    September 25th. At that time you were blaming it completely on the OL. Your tune has changed.

    [/quote]
    V in almost every post you have said we dont have the skill players to beat the blitz, i say we dont have the blocking to beat it.
    maybe thats a difference of opinion but like ive said in other post ive seen more break downs at the line then anywhere else.
    and if your claim is that the patriots wrs are better than ares based on there success with the patriots that makes no sense.
    wade, williamson, rice, shiancoe are all young unproven players.
    did anyone know who troy brown, david givins, and david patten were before they were catching tds in the super bowl.
    again its easy to say there better cuz they got there chance, with a super bowl calibre team, but again what have those guys as well as others have done when leaving a team with a great o-line and tom brady.
    you were giving the o-line a pass and saying that their was just an excuse for us saying our offense is playing badly.
    you pinned it on qb play and wrs who can't get open.
    i would assume qb play would include tavaris, although it does sound like you are slightly more confident in him than holcomb.


    but as usual my point is the same as it's been the whole time.
    if the o-line does not play better than theres no way we can get a good read on what these young guys can do.
    the o-line played better, and holcomb proved in most cases to not make the play.
    but as for the other guys you dogged they proved they could by getting open all day against what most experts say is a great defense.
    so i'll give you props on holcomb, as if that was going far out on a limb,
    but if we stink in pass protection against the bears that will still be the biggest problem.

    LET THAT WHICH DOES NOT MATTER, TRULY SLIDE

  8. #28
    vikingivan is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    I don't think they have played together long enough to beat the blitz.
    The receiver and quarterback both have to read the blitz, and adjusts their patterns.
    I believe they call it
    the hot read.
    That is how teams beat the blitz.

  9. #29
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=38326.msg646506#msg646506 date=1191084926]
    [quote author=mountainviking link=topic=38326.msg646505#msg646505 date=1191084371]
    I'll give you that V, the OLINE is not our only problem.
    Ferguson has already dropped several passes.
    TJack gave that game to the Lions!
    Chester Taylor, Tony Richardson, and Williamson have missed games due to injury.
    Rice, Wade, and Shank have looked pretty good when given the oppurtunity, but the pressure and sacks have limited the opportunities...

    If it wasn't for Adrian and Mewelde making people miss, we'd probably have less than half our yardage so far.
    I like what both you and V have to say, but both of you also have to admit that although we have multiple problems all of them can be improved on in a very short time if the OL was performing better.

    Inexperienced QB's do perform well if they have two things in thier favor, a good running game (we have a great one) and a OL can protect them long enough for them to make the correct reads in the passing game.
    Our guys, unfortunately aren't doing the later.

    If the OL doesn't give the QB time to read the Defense (after the snap) then the young Jedi will suck, the running game will be degraded and our backs will start getting hurt.
    2 out of those 3 have already happened.


    TJ started getting pressure and he threw the ball around in the Lions game.
    Thats bad but to be expected and we already have had 1 FB and 1 RB on the pine because of injury.
    All very bad indicators that can be directly traced back to bad OL play my friends.
    dead on marrdro, and exactly my points.
    to say that we dont have the talent at the skill positions is ignoring the fact that we can't know that if they dont get the oppurtunity due to poor line play.
    V continues to say i'm ignoring his points, but when you make a broad claim like we dont have the skill position players when they can't even get there hands on the ball cuz of too much pressure, it's ignoring the main problem.


    now this week they looked the best they have in pass blocking this year. there was still decent pressure but the line gave holcomb good protection on many more plays than i've seen all year.
    which showed in our production stat wise.

    that's why you were able to see the skills of a sidney rice, shiancoe, williamson.
    problem is holcomb is not, and will never be the answer.
    he's a stop gap, till your starter gets back, nothing more.
    if tjack was healthy enough to dress and step in if something happened to holcomb, i'm not following why he wouldnt just start.
    if that's farve he's in there.
    if childress is gonna start backpedalling after he put all his eggs in tjacks basket, than he will not last very long as our head coach.


    my point overall is, there is no problem with our skill positions.
    running back, wr, and te have talent there.
    obviously there is still a question at qb but thats why tjack has to play to prove if he is the answer.
    thats gonna be on childress.
    but the o-line has to play more like they did this past week if they are gonna give our skill players any chance of proving their worth.
    so if you can't see that point, than i am wasting my words on you V.
    Let me quote my last post:

    "'Crap' from V? I simply made a sound argument on how there are other ways to beat the blitz, but we don't have the talent to do it. Clearly my words have been wasted on you.

    There are a plethora of examples, the Cowboys last year and the Texans this year to name two, of teams had solved the problem of QB pressure simply by putting in a better QB in there.

    The OL has had trouble pass blocking. Holcomb has been hesitant in the pocket. Jackson made some bad decisions two games ago. Those are all facts. If you want to single out the OL as the offense's only problem, fine. IMO, there are other problems that exist.

    We can choose to try and pick up the blitz, or we can choose to beat the blitz, which is what the WCO calles for (Favre, McNabb, and Elway come to mind). However, right now, with an underperforming OL, and a lack of talent at the skill positions, we can't do either well. I don't know how that does not make sense to you. "

    Now, you have come back and said that the OL was better, but Holcomb wasn't good enough to get the job done. How is that any different from what I said? I said all along that Holcomb was the main problem, and that our skill positions aren't dangerous enough for other teams to stop blitzing. Even with the nice day that Wade and Rice had, GB never stopped blitzing. Even when Holcomb had all day to throw, there were times were he missed the mark. Eventually, we need a QB who will expose a blitzing defense. I hope TJ is that guy, but he has not yet proven that he can do that either.

    Stop being stubborn. Realize that you basically agreed with my last post.
    A week ago you were saying OL was the problem. Now you are saying the problem is part OL and part QB. Hmmm.
    V it's easy to say you are right after the line had one good game.
    it's like me saying tavaris is definitely the future if he has a derek anderson against cincy type game.
    it's one game.
    3 subpar games and one decent game does not change the point.
    you said our skill positions are not good enough.
    tavaris i'm not sure of, though i'm opptimistic, but you wrote off everyone who catches passes along with it.
    if anything the play of the o-line last game proves my point exactly.
    that we do have guys who can beat the blitz, but now we have to prove with tjack that we have the qb to do it.
    if i had to pin a blame on the last game it would be holcomb cuz the plays were there.
    4 ints against detroit i dont pin solely on tavaris cuz the time wasn't there.
    it's early and things can still get better, but up until this week, which this thread started before, the line was our biggest problem.
    I never wrote off our skill positions. You brought up a comparison to the 2001 Patriots, and I said they we are not as talented at WR as the 2001 Patriots. That is not writing them off, that is the truth.

    Otherwise, my main complaint, throughout this whole argument, has been that Holcomb sucks. Look it up. I say time and time again. Holcomb sucks. This last week, we got the better pass protection which you wanted so desperately. Guess what happened? Holcomb sucked. Now, you are saying Holcomb sucks, and I'm supposed to give you a free pass after you criticized me for a full week for saying the exact same thing?

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    THE VIKINGS SUCK BECAUSE ..... we can't block anyone for longer than 2 seconds, therefore we can not even get the ball into our wrs hands.
    we can't complain about the play of wrs and qbs when they are not even getting a chance to show what they can do cuz the qb has to throw the ball 2 seconds early or take a sack.
    was it me or was there a problem up and down the whole line this week and not just on the right side?


    if we don't get this fixed we are never gonna know how tavaris is or any of these young wrs.
    2 seconds?
    Watch the game again. On some of those sacks Holcomb had 5-7 seconds. Apparently Holcomb didn't have a grasp of our offense. He totally missed the part about 3-step drops and getting rid of the ball.

    This whole OL hate thing is just an excuse for our QB play. Holcomb showed no poise in the pocket. He was too scared to step up and delver throws. The only thing Holcomb did well was not throw a pick.
    Moreover, if as a coach you recognize you are having trouble pass blocking, you have to do something about, you can't just do the same thing all game and expect it to work. We have seen Childress do this before.

    When we get Taylor and TJ back, we'll improve a bit. Taylor will help us depend on the run a bit more, and TJ will at least be able to scramble a little instead of standing in the pocket waiting to get sacked.
    Read the date:
    September 25th. At that time you were blaming it completely on the OL. Your tune has changed.

    [/quote]
    V in almost every post you have said we dont have the skill players to beat the blitz, i say we dont have the blocking to beat it.
    maybe thats a difference of opinion but like ive said in other post ive seen more break downs at the line then anywhere else.
    and if your claim is that the patriots wrs are better than ares based on there success with the patriots that makes no sense.
    wade, williamson, rice, shiancoe are all young unproven players.
    did anyone know who troy brown, david givins, and david patten were before they were catching tds in the super bowl.
    again its easy to say there better cuz they got there chance, with a super bowl calibre team, but again what have those guys as well as others have done when leaving a team with a great o-line and tom brady.
    you were giving the o-line a pass and saying that their was just an excuse for us saying our offense is playing badly.
    you pinned it on qb play and wrs who can't get open.
    i would assume qb play would include tavaris, although it does sound like you are slightly more confident in him than holcomb.


    but as usual my point is the same as it's been the whole time.
    if the o-line does not play better than theres no way we can get a good read on what these young guys can do.
    the o-line played better, and holcomb proved in most cases to not make the play.
    but as for the other guys you dogged they proved they could by getting open all day against what most experts say is a great defense.
    so i'll give you props on holcomb, as if that was going far out on a limb,
    but if we stink in pass protection against the bears that will still be the biggest problem.


    [/quote]

    No, that is not what I said.

    My point is not that the receivers suck. My point was that they are not good enough to earn respect from other teams. This results in increased blitzes, because opposing defenses are not scared of them. Rice and Wade had good days on Sunday. Did the packers ever stop blitzing? No.

    I will say that the receivers played very well agaisnt GB. Still, if we had a guy at WR who is good enough to make the D blitz less, there would be less pressure on our OL, which brings me back to my point: There are other ways to beat the blitz, but we do not have the QB nor the WRs to make that happen.

    Please don't make me say it again.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  10. #30
    bigbadragz's Avatar
    bigbadragz is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Minnesota Vikings' high-priced offensive line still a work in progress.

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    [quote author=bigbadragz link=topic=38326.msg648388#msg648388 date=1191298928]
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=38326.msg646506#msg646506 date=1191084926]
    [quote author=mountainviking link=topic=38326.msg646505#msg646505 date=1191084371]
    I'll give you that V, the OLINE is not our only problem.
    Ferguson has already dropped several passes.
    TJack gave that game to the Lions!
    Chester Taylor, Tony Richardson, and Williamson have missed games due to injury.
    Rice, Wade, and Shank have looked pretty good when given the oppurtunity, but the pressure and sacks have limited the opportunities...

    If it wasn't for Adrian and Mewelde making people miss, we'd probably have less than half our yardage so far.
    I like what both you and V have to say, but both of you also have to admit that although we have multiple problems all of them can be improved on in a very short time if the OL was performing better.

    Inexperienced QB's do perform well if they have two things in thier favor, a good running game (we have a great one) and a OL can protect them long enough for them to make the correct reads in the passing game.
    Our guys, unfortunately aren't doing the later.

    If the OL doesn't give the QB time to read the Defense (after the snap) then the young Jedi will suck, the running game will be degraded and our backs will start getting hurt.
    2 out of those 3 have already happened.


    TJ started getting pressure and he threw the ball around in the Lions game.
    Thats bad but to be expected and we already have had 1 FB and 1 RB on the pine because of injury.
    All very bad indicators that can be directly traced back to bad OL play my friends.
    dead on marrdro, and exactly my points.
    to say that we dont have the talent at the skill positions is ignoring the fact that we can't know that if they dont get the oppurtunity due to poor line play.
    V continues to say i'm ignoring his points, but when you make a broad claim like we dont have the skill position players when they can't even get there hands on the ball cuz of too much pressure, it's ignoring the main problem.


    now this week they looked the best they have in pass blocking this year. there was still decent pressure but the line gave holcomb good protection on many more plays than i've seen all year.
    which showed in our production stat wise.

    that's why you were able to see the skills of a sidney rice, shiancoe, williamson.
    problem is holcomb is not, and will never be the answer.
    he's a stop gap, till your starter gets back, nothing more.
    if tjack was healthy enough to dress and step in if something happened to holcomb, i'm not following why he wouldnt just start.
    if that's farve he's in there.
    if childress is gonna start backpedalling after he put all his eggs in tjacks basket, than he will not last very long as our head coach.


    my point overall is, there is no problem with our skill positions.
    running back, wr, and te have talent there.
    obviously there is still a question at qb but thats why tjack has to play to prove if he is the answer.
    thats gonna be on childress.
    but the o-line has to play more like they did this past week if they are gonna give our skill players any chance of proving their worth.
    so if you can't see that point, than i am wasting my words on you V.
    Let me quote my last post:

    "'Crap' from V? I simply made a sound argument on how there are other ways to beat the blitz, but we don't have the talent to do it. Clearly my words have been wasted on you.

    There are a plethora of examples, the Cowboys last year and the Texans this year to name two, of teams had solved the problem of QB pressure simply by putting in a better QB in there.

    The OL has had trouble pass blocking. Holcomb has been hesitant in the pocket. Jackson made some bad decisions two games ago. Those are all facts. If you want to single out the OL as the offense's only problem, fine. IMO, there are other problems that exist.

    We can choose to try and pick up the blitz, or we can choose to beat the blitz, which is what the WCO calles for (Favre, McNabb, and Elway come to mind). However, right now, with an underperforming OL, and a lack of talent at the skill positions, we can't do either well. I don't know how that does not make sense to you. "

    Now, you have come back and said that the OL was better, but Holcomb wasn't good enough to get the job done. How is that any different from what I said? I said all along that Holcomb was the main problem, and that our skill positions aren't dangerous enough for other teams to stop blitzing. Even with the nice day that Wade and Rice had, GB never stopped blitzing. Even when Holcomb had all day to throw, there were times were he missed the mark. Eventually, we need a QB who will expose a blitzing defense. I hope TJ is that guy, but he has not yet proven that he can do that either.

    Stop being stubborn. Realize that you basically agreed with my last post.
    A week ago you were saying OL was the problem. Now you are saying the problem is part OL and part QB. Hmmm.
    V it's easy to say you are right after the line had one good game.
    it's like me saying tavaris is definitely the future if he has a derek anderson against cincy type game.
    it's one game.
    3 subpar games and one decent game does not change the point.
    you said our skill positions are not good enough.
    tavaris i'm not sure of, though i'm opptimistic, but you wrote off everyone who catches passes along with it.
    if anything the play of the o-line last game proves my point exactly.
    that we do have guys who can beat the blitz, but now we have to prove with tjack that we have the qb to do it.
    if i had to pin a blame on the last game it would be holcomb cuz the plays were there.
    4 ints against detroit i dont pin solely on tavaris cuz the time wasn't there.
    it's early and things can still get better, but up until this week, which this thread started before, the line was our biggest problem.
    I never wrote off our skill positions. You brought up a comparison to the 2001 Patriots, and I said they we are not as talented at WR as the 2001 Patriots. That is not writing them off, that is the truth.

    Otherwise, my main complaint, throughout this whole argument, has been that Holcomb sucks. Look it up. I say time and time again. Holcomb sucks. This last week, we got the better pass protection which you wanted so desperately. Guess what happened? Holcomb sucked. Now, you are saying Holcomb sucks, and I'm supposed to give you a free pass after you criticized me for a full week for saying the exact same thing?

    "V" wrote:
    "bigbadragz" wrote:
    THE VIKINGS SUCK BECAUSE ..... we can't block anyone for longer than 2 seconds, therefore we can not even get the ball into our wrs hands.
    we can't complain about the play of wrs and qbs when they are not even getting a chance to show what they can do cuz the qb has to throw the ball 2 seconds early or take a sack.
    was it me or was there a problem up and down the whole line this week and not just on the right side?


    if we don't get this fixed we are never gonna know how tavaris is or any of these young wrs.
    2 seconds?
    Watch the game again. On some of those sacks Holcomb had 5-7 seconds. Apparently Holcomb didn't have a grasp of our offense. He totally missed the part about 3-step drops and getting rid of the ball.

    This whole OL hate thing is just an excuse for our QB play. Holcomb showed no poise in the pocket. He was too scared to step up and delver throws. The only thing Holcomb did well was not throw a pick.
    Moreover, if as a coach you recognize you are having trouble pass blocking, you have to do something about, you can't just do the same thing all game and expect it to work. We have seen Childress do this before.

    When we get Taylor and TJ back, we'll improve a bit. Taylor will help us depend on the run a bit more, and TJ will at least be able to scramble a little instead of standing in the pocket waiting to get sacked.
    Read the date:
    September 25th. At that time you were blaming it completely on the OL. Your tune has changed.

    [/quote]
    V in almost every post you have said we dont have the skill players to beat the blitz, i say we dont have the blocking to beat it.
    maybe thats a difference of opinion but like ive said in other post ive seen more break downs at the line then anywhere else.
    and if your claim is that the patriots wrs are better than ares based on there success with the patriots that makes no sense.
    wade, williamson, rice, shiancoe are all young unproven players.
    did anyone know who troy brown, david givins, and david patten were before they were catching tds in the super bowl.
    again its easy to say there better cuz they got there chance, with a super bowl calibre team, but again what have those guys as well as others have done when leaving a team with a great o-line and tom brady.
    you were giving the o-line a pass and saying that their was just an excuse for us saying our offense is playing badly.
    you pinned it on qb play and wrs who can't get open.
    i would assume qb play would include tavaris, although it does sound like you are slightly more confident in him than holcomb.


    but as usual my point is the same as it's been the whole time.
    if the o-line does not play better than theres no way we can get a good read on what these young guys can do.
    the o-line played better, and holcomb proved in most cases to not make the play.
    but as for the other guys you dogged they proved they could by getting open all day against what most experts say is a great defense.
    so i'll give you props on holcomb, as if that was going far out on a limb,
    but if we stink in pass protection against the bears that will still be the biggest problem.


    [/quote]

    No, that is not what I said.

    My point is not that the receivers suck. My point was that they are not good enough to earn respect from other teams. This results in increased blitzes, because opposing defenses are not scared of them. Rice and Wade had good days on Sunday. Did the packers ever stop blitzing? No.

    I will say that the receivers played very well agaisnt GB. Still, if we had a guy at WR who is good enough to make the D blitz less, there would be less pressure on our OL, which brings me back to my point: There are other ways to beat the blitz, but we do not have the QB nor the WRs to make that happen.

    Please don't make me say it again.
    [/quote]
    V i got your point, but it dont change the fact that the best way to beat the blitz is by blocking it somewhat, even if you delay it wrs can get behind coverage.
    rice has what, a 4 game career under his belt, tjack has 4 starts under his belt?
    all i'm saying is it's a little premature to start saying we dont have that, but then give the o-line a pass even though they obviously have played poorly. for all we know tjack and rice, and all of them are capable, but as i've repeated the line is not exactly giving them much of a chance.
    you were the one that called that an excuse as opposed to the truth.
    my bad.
    LET THAT WHICH DOES NOT MATTER, TRULY SLIDE

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