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  1. #111
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1089741
    For my good friend I_Bleed and PF.

    Rex Ryan said there might be some added buzz to Monday night's preseason opener against the crosstown rival Giants, since it's the first NFL game in the new stadium. But not enough buzz to game plan for the Jets' opponent.

    "We donít prepare for it," the head coach said. "Weíre just going to line up and play. There are a lot of coaches that take a different look to it. Theyíll treat this like a game, theyíll study us and all that kind of stuff, and thatís fine."
    Rex Ryan won't game plan for Giants, other preseason opponents


    Game plans are vanilla, generic and as a basic as they comeóbut they still serve a purpose. Coaches want to see their players execute simple route concepts: Curl/ Flat, Smash/ 7, etc. Up front, they want to see the O-Line open up holes and protect in passing situations. Fundamentals over schemes. The same fundamentals teams have been working on during individual drills in camp.
    Donít tip your hands when it comes to your regular season packages and put your players in the base offense and defense to focus on technique. Footwork, tackling, blocking, running routes at the proper depth and so on
    NFL teams donít game plan for August football and they donít watch film of opposing teams like they do in the regular season.
    They are an extension of practice

    What Do NFL Teams Look For In Preseaon


    Coaches Mind Set
    Knowing how a coach approaches these games is very important. Some coaches treat these games as glorified practices, while other coaches believe it is important to instill a winning attitude on the team.
    Game Plan
    Preseason football is the only time that a coach will make his game plan public knowledge. Information such as how much playing time certain players will see is often available from local news sources. An example of this would be the Colts Dungy stating "Manning will play the first series as will the rest of the first string offense. The first string defense will play the first quarter and then we'll start substituting players. Getting a jump on this information will lead to big betting profits. Check out the local online newspaper sites daily for the coach's game plans.
    NFL Preseason Handicapping

    I will give you the exact quote from a book once I verify it, but I believe it was in Tom Callahans book "The GM, Inside Story of a Dream Job" (something like that) were he talked about working together with the other team in scrimmages and preseason games to get things done/on tape.

    Or you could read my condensed version which contains only 3 letters:


    Duh


    :woohoo:

  2. #112
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1089756
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1089749
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1089747
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1089744
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1089737
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1089733
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1089712
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1089684
    Posted by Marrdro
    Hell, I would go so far as to say that the coaches sometimes even trade some thoughts on what they are gonna do so that the other can work on his stuff that they will use to counter that.
    WHAT!?

    Did I really read that? You honestly think that coaches meet before preseason games and say "hey man, I'm gonna run some screens, and when I do, my hand signal will be a big jackoff motion, you can work on your defense to stop that"

    Why in the hell would an NFL head coach try and help an opposing team get better?
    LMAO.

    And they laughed at the Randy Ratio. Now the coaches are texting their play list to the coaches on the other side line. Next thing you know they will have a neon fricking sign on the QB's helmet that will broadcast the play to the defense in real time.
    Wow, sometimes I'm surprised at you guys. Its well known they do it in scrimmages, that are meaningless, why wouldn't they work on things in meaningless pre-season games?

    Unless of course your of a mind that every teams goes out to win pre-season games, then I could see why that is hard to understand.

    If your of that mind, then you've probably never heard coach Dungy talk about what he focused on in scrimmages and pre-season games.

    Quick question for you two. What are pre-season games for, especially the first two?
    Man you are all over the place on this one. First you are talking scrimmages, then preseason games, then back to scrimmages and back to preseason games again. Step away from the keayboard, focus, and then get back to me with a single coherent question.:P
    LOL. My apologies......

    The scrimmages and first 2 preseason games are treated as one in the same by most of the coaches who don't take them as anything other than opportunities for their team to work on things.

    Go back to my points I've repeatedly made about how little importance/credence I put on TJ's preseason stats vs Sages preseason stats.

    In one game TJ ran 4 straight screen plays. What team does that s part of a gameplan? Answer, none. They just wanted to work on screen plays.
    There is a huge difference between not having a gameplan, and arranging with rival coaches to practice certain plays.

    Nobody is arguing that teams don't use a gamplan in preseason (well, they do plan for the game, but they plan on plays/situations they want to use and see, not necessarily to win)

    However, to claim that a HC would help out another team by calling specific plays is quite possibly the most ridiculous theory you've come up with yet. I'm not sure if you believe it, or it's just one of your ways to try and stir up some type of 'discussion'
    I didn't say specific plays. I said they discuss what they want to work on.

    Again, to help you get back on track with what I said (never ever ever once said plays)......

    Hell, I would go so far as to say that the coaches sometimes even trade some thoughts on what they are gonna do so that the other can work on his stuff that they will use to counter that.
    Quick question, have you ever been to a scrimmage? The coaches actually stand together behind the QB's, Defense and call a play. The teams do their thing, the coaches go out, make corrections and then, RUN IT AGAIN, is what you hear.

    The first two preseason games are nothing more than that stuff taken to the next level.

    Look, this isn't something new. Just because you never heard of it or thought of it doesn't make it as outlandish as you are trying to make it.
    I'm aware of how a football practice works, I've been to many. The thing is, the OFfense is playing against their own defense. it's in the coaches best interest to make sure their offense and defense are both playing well.

    Preseason games are against OTHER TEAMS. Coaches don't want to help other teams. Doing so is foolish. If they call 5 screens that go for 50 yards each because the other team called the wrong play, great! That's a well-executed screen by the offense. What do they gain by running a screen, telling the other team to key on it and watching their RB get smacked right as they catch the ball?

    Perhaps the knowledge that if the other team knows exactly what you're doing it's hard to do? I'd hope they already understand that concept.
    Actually he might be on something or onto something. looking back at chilly's 5 years it really did seem like it was common for him to call the opposing coach and tell them that we were going to run a 3 yard hook on 3rd and 7. They got us stopped darn near every time too. Hmmmmmmm Maybe marty knows what he is talking about.

  3. #113
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Posted by Marrdro
    Hell, I would go so far as to say that the coaches sometimes even trade some thoughts on what they are gonna do so that the other can work on his stuff that they will use to counter that.
    To this particular quote, I have no problem in believing this happens. Pre-season games are solely for making your team better for the regular season. You tend to see teams working on their weaknesses a lot in pre-season for this reason.

    If you want to challenge your passing offense, why not collaborate with the opposing coach to see if they want to use that opportunity to focus on their pass defense. Win-win kind of deal. No intent to make the other team better, just a by-product in making yourself better.

    If this is a divisional rival than probably less willing to do so, but depending on the teams, it seems pretty plausible to me.

  4. #114
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1089734
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1089729
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1089702
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1089692
    Not because the kids are dumber or the Colleges are lazy...but because the GAME is more complex.

    I would have thought you'd have figured that out with all your spreadsheets...

    Caine

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm...........

    And yet all of them are still doing it the old school way. All they are doing is adding more position coaching and teaching the kids the things they should have learned coming up.
    Sounds pretty close to that if you ask me.

    Besides, the game isn't getting that comlex. A 9 route is still a 9 route. A QB still has to read the defense and hand the ball off or take a 3, 5 or 7 step drop. The blocking is still head on left shoulder/head on right shoulder.

    What isn't the same is that a QB doesn't learn to read a defense from under center and then turn his back to the defense, hand off/take a 5 step drop, turn and re-read the defense. All he does is stand back there. Get the ball hiked to him, all the while not moving his feet much out of the proper stance, with his eyes continually on the defense and either hits a hot read or hands the ball off.

    I have figured something out and it sure has nothing to do with the complexity of the game my friend. I think what I've figured out is that you might not see the game the same way I do. :laugh:
    Now, again, that can be taken several ways...and one of those is not at all complimentary.

    Essentially, you just blew off my entire post, then tried to cover it with a superior sounding "we don't see the game the same way"....this followed - several posts later with - a self-congratulatory, "Not many spend as much time as I do studying the game".

    How typical. And how full of bullshit.

    Caine
    You have been around here long enough to know I don't blow posts off. I might throw some bullshit in there, but I don't blow them off.

    In this case, I just don't see the sense in carrying this discussion on, even though I love talking this stuff. You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you and there are alot more interesting things to talk about other than who wanted the Noodle back, the owner or the HC.

    Besides, I asked you for proof and you didn't give it to me. One could almost say you blew me off and loaded up your response with bullshit as well. I just choose not to do that.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
    I've also been around here long enough to know that instead of ever admitting to being wrong, you will instead either play the "agree to disagree" cared, or claim the conversation has lost it's point/interest...

    Fact is, I brought ALL of this back up because I was AGAIN countering assertions YOU made. You keep preaching the same stuff, and I keep refuting it.

    Funny part is, you demand to see MY proof (and I calmly point to EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE and INTERVIEW ever done on the topic), yet offer none of your own?

    I have backed up everything with all available evidence. Short of getting recording from Childress himself, I can't offer more. You ,on the other hand, have offered nothing other than your own opinion and a "feeling".

    Got anything more substantial?

    Caine

  5. #115
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1089806
    I've also been around here long enough to know that instead of ever admitting to being wrong, you will instead either play the "agree to disagree" cared, or claim the conversation has lost it's point/interest...

    Fact is, I brought ALL of this back up because I was AGAIN countering assertions YOU made. You keep preaching the same stuff, and I keep refuting it.

    Funny part is, you demand to see MY proof (and I calmly point to EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE and INTERVIEW ever done on the topic), yet offer none of your own?

    I have backed up everything with all available evidence. Short of getting recording from Childress himself, I can't offer more. You ,on the other hand, have offered nothing other than your own opinion and a "feeling".

    Got anything more substantial?

    Caine
    First, I think I admit I'm wrong aheck of alot more than most on here so that doesn't work.

    Second, you haven't provided one article that shows evidence that the Chiller sent those three down there. All you have posted (if you posted any at all) are articles from yutz reporters who speculated that the Chiller sent them.

    I on the other hand have given you several articles that specifically have quotes from the Chiller were he admits to nothing other than saying that he hid the truth with respect to were the players were that day. He never once said that he sent them there.

    I have also offered up several articles centered around the Chillers actual visit down there were he said that all he wanted was the same thing that TT wanted over there in PUKER land. A decision so the team could move on.

    Key words being, move on.

    Is it all speculation on my part? Of course, and I admit it. Why won't you? Again, you have no proof he sent those guys down there and wasn't ready to move on with TJ as his starter.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #116
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090092
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1089806
    I've also been around here long enough to know that instead of ever admitting to being wrong, you will instead either play the "agree to disagree" cared, or claim the conversation has lost it's point/interest...

    Fact is, I brought ALL of this back up because I was AGAIN countering assertions YOU made. You keep preaching the same stuff, and I keep refuting it.

    Funny part is, you demand to see MY proof (and I calmly point to EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE and INTERVIEW ever done on the topic), yet offer none of your own?

    I have backed up everything with all available evidence. Short of getting recording from Childress himself, I can't offer more. You ,on the other hand, have offered nothing other than your own opinion and a "feeling".

    Got anything more substantial?

    Caine
    First, I think I admit I'm wrong aheck of alot more than most on here so that doesn't work.

    Second, you haven't provided one article that shows evidence that the Chiller sent those three down there. All you have posted (if you posted any at all) are articles from yutz reporters who speculated that the Chiller sent them.

    I on the other hand have given you several articles that specifically have quotes from the Chiller were he admits to nothing other than saying that he hid the truth with respect to were the players were that day. He never once said that he sent them there.

    I have also offered up several articles centered around the Chillers actual visit down there were he said that all he wanted was the same thing that TT wanted over there in PUKER land. A decision so the team could move on.

    Key words being, move on.

    Is it all speculation on my part? Of course, and I admit it. Why won't you? Again, you have no proof he sent those guys down there and wasn't ready to move on with TJ as his starter.
    There is a lot more evidense that he did send the players than that he didn't send the players.

    Quick question:

    If we are wrong and somebody else sent the players then who was that person and do you have even a crumb of evidence to support it?

  7. #117
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090092
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1089806
    I've also been around here long enough to know that instead of ever admitting to being wrong, you will instead either play the "agree to disagree" cared, or claim the conversation has lost it's point/interest...

    Fact is, I brought ALL of this back up because I was AGAIN countering assertions YOU made. You keep preaching the same stuff, and I keep refuting it.

    Funny part is, you demand to see MY proof (and I calmly point to EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE and INTERVIEW ever done on the topic), yet offer none of your own?

    I have backed up everything with all available evidence. Short of getting recording from Childress himself, I can't offer more. You ,on the other hand, have offered nothing other than your own opinion and a "feeling".

    Got anything more substantial?

    Caine
    First, I think I admit I'm wrong aheck of alot more than most on here so that doesn't work.

    Second, you haven't provided one article that shows evidence that the Chiller sent those three down there. All you have posted (if you posted any at all) are articles from yutz reporters who speculated that the Chiller sent them.

    I on the other hand have given you several articles that specifically have quotes from the Chiller were he admits to nothing other than saying that he hid the truth with respect to were the players were that day. He never once said that he sent them there.

    I have also offered up several articles centered around the Chillers actual visit down there were he said that all he wanted was the same thing that TT wanted over there in PUKER land. A decision so the team could move on.

    Key words being, move on.

    Is it all speculation on my part? Of course, and I admit it. Why won't you? Again, you have no proof he sent those guys down there and wasn't ready to move on with TJ as his starter.
    Source: http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/101042309.html

    Quote: "Vikings coach Brad Childress was asked Wednesday if he expected Brett Favre to return if he hadn't sent players Steve Hutchinson, Jared Allen and Ryan Longwell to the Hattiesburg, Miss., home of the quarterback, where they were able to convince the veteran quarterback to rejoin the Vikings.

    "He might have come back, but we wanted him to return sooner," Childress said.
    "

    Notice the key phrase here... "...if HE hadn't SENT players..."

    Sounds pretty direct...and Chiller doesn't deny the implication in his reply.

    How about THIS tidbit:

    "Childress himself making a trip to Mississippi to beseech Favre in July wasn't enough."

    Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/08/19/vikings/index.html?xid=cnnbin

    And it goes on to say, "In other words, whatever it took in the way of a spectacle, as Childress even gave voice to. Even if that meant having a couple of his assistants in Darrell Bevell and Brian Murphy stand up in front of the media on Tuesday and embarrassingly try to cover up the fact that Allen, Hutchinson and Longwell weren't at practice.
    "That's what that took,' said Childress on Wednesday, after first issuing an apology to Bevell, Murphy and the Minnesota media for the subterfuge. "You look and see what a situation calls for and you do it. Now, it may have never been done before, but you do what you need to do, or you feel like you need to do, in a given situation. I thought it was common sense with what needed to happen.'
    "

    What part of that DOESN'T smack of Chiller calling the shots?

    Oh...sorry....those two sources (Which I found in 3 minutes) are probably "yutz reporters", right?

    I found MULTIPLE mentions of "Vikings send players" and "Viking staff sends players"...

    I found ZERO mentions of "Wilf sends players" or "Wilf tells Chiller to send players".

    But spin away....

    Finally, you stated, "First, I think I admit I'm wrong aheck of alot more than most on here so that doesn't work." I disagree. In multiple cases where you are clearly wrong, I see you bending the truth and twisting facts in order to prevent admission of any kind. I have yet to see you come out and say, "On issue (insert Favre, Childress, or Jackson related issue here), I, Marrdro, am wrong".

    Although now would be a good time to start.

    Caine

  8. #118
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    I stick to the theory that Childress wasn't unreasonable in hoping for a natural progression from Tavaris Jackson. Jackson had shown enough to at least take that sort of risk, especially in the context of some other moves the Vikings made.

    I see one real "miss" in the last 3 years at QB by the Vikings, and that is with the pure benefit of hindsight on my part.

    Go back to 2008 and that year's draft. I would argue that you totally handcuffed yourselves in the draft that year by acquiring Jared Allen from KC by giving up your 1st and both 3rd round picks. I didn't hear anyone bitching about that decision around here.

    Who could you have got with your 2nd?

    Brian friggin' Brohm. Pack took him. Pre-draft analysis? "Probably MOST NFL-ready QB in draft." He was and is a COMPLETE bust, even in friggin' Buffalo.

    In 2009 you took Percy Harvin in the 1st and Phil Loadholt in the 2nd.
    I submit that those are some pretty outstanding picks, (I hope that kid can eliminate those migraines-he's a great player) In between those picks you would have taken Pat White out of WV at QB...(Dolphins took him)

    He's a wonderful minor-league baseball player for the KC Royals these days...

    If you HAD a miss, I guess it would be last year by not taking Colt McCoy-
    He was taken with the 85th pick,but even THAT "miss" isn't fair, imo-
    Pre-draft take on McCoy- "Lacks NFL size..small hands, injured in last game of his career at Texas..."

    The reality remains that QB is such a hit/miss proposition, and there is COST involved in pulling the trigger in taking one. I mean really, even when the Pack made what seemed like a "no-brainer" in taking Rodgers at 24, my bet would be that Viking fan draftniks were saying to themselves (at the time) "Whew, lucky for us those idiots in GB are wasiting a 1st rd pick on a QB they don't need, instead of taking [insert player of need here]"

    TJ has apparently not worked out. That is NOT Chilly's "fault", imo--

    There was enough evidence to make the inductive leap that he would, and to say otherwise is just playing the blame game with the extraordinary (and unfair) advantage of both hindsight and a semi-failure to fully appreciate context. IMO


    ...As to the acquisition and retention of one Brett Lorenzo Favre, a/k/a the "purple dinosaur" by yours truly.

    The only way anyone is ever going to know the complete "truth" of the how and why regarding having Brett on your team is by (for example) waterboarding Zygi. No one knows how much weight was placed on the "business" side of that decision, 4 jerseys, asses in seats, TV ratings, etc.

    As an example, Dan Snyder in D.C. has made an extraordinary income from making just such "splash" moves, and he doesn't even need a new stadium...just sayin'...

  9. #119
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1090131
    I stick to the theory that Childress wasn't unreasonable in hoping for a natural progression from Tavaris Jackson. Jackson had shown enough to at least take that sort of risk, especially in the context of some other moves the Vikings made.

    I see one real "miss" in the last 3 years at QB by the Vikings, and that is with the pure benefit of hindsight on my part.

    Go back to 2008 and that year's draft. I would argue that you totally handcuffed yourselves in the draft that year by acquiring Jared Allen from KC by giving up your 1st and both 3rd round picks. I didn't hear anyone bitching about that decision around here.

    Who could you have got with your 2nd?

    Brian friggin' Brohm. Pack took him. Pre-draft analysis? "Probably MOST NFL-ready QB in draft." He was and is a COMPLETE bust, even in friggin' Buffalo.

    In 2009 you took Percy Harvin in the 1st and Phil Loadholt in the 2nd.
    I submit that those are some pretty outstanding picks, (I hope that kid can eliminate those migraines-he's a great player) In between those picks you would have taken Pat White out of WV at QB...(Dolphins took him)

    He's a wonderful minor-league baseball player for the KC Royals these days...

    If you HAD a miss, I guess it would be last year by not taking Colt McCoy-
    He was taken with the 85th pick,but even THAT "miss" isn't fair, imo-
    Pre-draft take on McCoy- "Lacks NFL size..small hands, injured in last game of his career at Texas..."

    The reality remains that QB is such a hit/miss proposition, and there is COST involved in pulling the trigger in taking one. I mean really, even when the Pack made what seemed like a "no-brainer" in taking Rodgers at 24, my bet would be that Viking fan draftniks were saying to themselves (at the time) "Whew, lucky for us those idiots in GB are wasiting a 1st rd pick on a QB they don't need, instead of taking [insert player of need here]"

    TJ has apparently not worked out. That is NOT Chilly's "fault", imo--

    There was enough evidence to make the inductive leap that he would, and to say otherwise is just playing the blame game with the extraordinary (and unfair) advantage of both hindsight and a semi-failure to fully appreciate context. IMO
    Here's where the two sides part ways...

    Those that were in support of Jackson stated - as you have here - that there was "enough evidence to make the inductive leap that he would" improve (I'm guessing that you were implying improvement, and not tanking...)

    Those who opposed the continuation of the Jackson Experiment (Myself being one of those) stated that there was significantly MORE evidence pointing to the likelyhood of him NOT significantly improving.

    And each side engaged in producing "proof" after "proof" to support their position...but there was really only one "proof" needed. And that was, simply, that every element the Pro-Jackson contingent produced was based in conjecture, hope, and supposition. WE THINK he'll be better, he MUST HAVE improved, he SHOULD HAVE grown, etc, etc, etc.

    Yet, whenever he took the field, we saw a handful of decent performances surrounded by a plethora of crap and blagh. Sometimes, he mixed them all into a single performance, but he TYPICALLY folded in the end.

    For five years.

    It never really changed.

    And all the "potential" he would allegedly show in practice, never really manifested itself on the field on game day...when it's most important.

    So, again, those of us who recognized this pattern back in '08 were advocating pulling the plug and moving on. After all, we'd been told in '07 that Jackson was "ready to go"...and he wasn't. We were told in '08 that he was "ready to go"...and he wasn't. Jackson's teeter-totter performances always seemed to teeter between terrible and "ok, I guess"...but we needed more than "ok, I guess". And Jackson never really seemed to show that.

    So, again, those of us who wanted off the Jackson-go-round tend to believe that almost ANY option would have been better. Hell, I believe that Sage Rosenfels would have been better, and I never really liked Sage!!!

    But Childress is the guy who refused to back away from Jackson. He kept saying he was ready - even when he demonstrably wasn't - and kept ignoring other options (even if they were hindsight busts).

    So, in the end, there is no one else TO blame but Childress. And entering '10 with the 3 we did, knowing that only 1 of them was under contract, and THAT GUY was a 6th round WR draftpick that was converted back to QB THIS YEAR....well, that SCREAMS incompetence.

    At least, that's how I read it...

    Caine

  10. #120
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    Re: Mewelde Moore speaks out on Childress...

    Shoot. It happened again. I edited/added when an additional thought occurred, (regarding Favre), but you (Caine) were quoting and replying from my initial post.

    I would characterize T-Jack as "on a bubble". He kept showing far more than mere "flashes" of competence, but yet (far?) less than the guy you could rely on consistently.

    I personally do not subscribe to the idea that Jackson was a poor fit for your version of the WCO, but am not going to fight that argument with those that do believe it.. In other words, not the "problem".

    Everyone beats around the bush about this aspect, but my personal belief is that he is just barely too friggin' stupid to play the position.

    I also think that Chilly thought he could overcome that. I also think that saying it was a 5 year experiment is technically accurate, but not altogether fair.

    I'll go with 3 plus some bizarre circumstances for 2.

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