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  1. #101
    PurpleTommyGun9's Avatar
    PurpleTommyGun9 is offline Training Camp
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    I say give him one more year. We were in every game but 2 this year. The team really wasn't that bad this year.
    The very BIGGEST PROBLEM we had, and I blame the whole team both players and coaches, was the PENALTIES. We were first in the league in that category, and it literally cost us the playoff spot that the Giants ended up with.
    We had 2 games that the winning points were taken off the board, giving victory away.
    If the coaching staff can't stop the penalties, maybe the owners should start fining players for each penalty that they get in a game.

  2. #102
    patistheman's Avatar
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "Del" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    I don't see this as a Witch Hunt, I see this more as shell shock.
    We were 9-7 under a coach that many considered incompetant, we added talent in the off season, and with the softest schedule we're likely to see in many years, we went 6-10 and were HUMILIATED versus teams that we should have hammered.

    The thing is, there is no one thing to point at and say, "That's where we went wrong".
    Instead, there are so many that prioritizing them is a nightmare.
    The obvious conclusion?
    Blame the Head Coach...after all, that's what he's there for.

    This compounds when you consider the fact that Mike McCarthy, a guy with a worse resume and a far worse talent pool, went 8-8 in HIS first HC season...and swept us.

    Personally, I think that we are very talent poor on offense...especially at QB and WR.
    We're soft on the right side of the line, and McKinney is a big question mark.
    Childress didn't make things easier by calling his own plays - and failing to make progress throughout the season.


    Maybe next season it all magically comes together, but when I look at our upcomming opponents, I can only shake my head and dream of days gone by when that would have been an interesting set of match ups...not a slaughter in the making.
    After all, we can only estimate our "next season" performance on our "last season" performance...if that holds true, we're screwed.

    Add in the fact that we are exiting an era of dynamic offenses in Minnesota.
    An era of high flying passing games and clock eating running games that combined to score copious quantities of points...something we saw very little of this season.

    Sure, we can all point at our run defense and say, "well at least THAT was good", but when held up next to the pass defense - which wasn't so good - even that loses it's luster.


    The long and the short of it is that we watched our team fail to score against most teams, then watched those same teams score on us...repeatedly.
    Not a lot to cheer about there.

    So, since there are no fans in the world who actively choose to hope their team sucks, we seek solutions.
    And, in an era of immediate gratification, we want them NOW.


    The biggest single difference between last season (9-7) and this season (6-10) is the Head Coach.
    Doesn't it make sense that Childress will draw a lot of fire and criticism for failing to improve upon the record of a guy that many fans were convinced was incompetant?
    Especially since HE was granted an almost wide open check book by our owner...something the "incompetant" guy NEVER had the luxury of?
    Makes sense to me.

    Is it all REALLY Brad Childress' fault?
    Nope.
    Our Players failed to perform...PERIOD.
    It was a 16 week campaign of incompetance and ineptitude, the likes of which I hope I never witness again.

    So, we head into the off season with more than a small amount of trepidation.
    Can our team put the right players on the field NEXT season, or will we again be humiliated for 4 months?
    Will our Coaches validate and vindicate themselves next season by performing up to the standards we have come to expect in Minnesota, or will it be another excersize in futility?


    I'm not going to call for Childress' head this season...I'm not a big believer in him or his system right now, but I'm willing to give him a chance.
    We'll see.

    Caine
    Humiliated? How is losing the majority of our games by less then one score a humiliation?

    The players did not perform.

    I really fail to see the connection that is being made time and time again of all this new talent we added and how we should be better by deafault from last year. Mike Tice was running an offense that we have been running for 9+ years. You bring in a new coaching staff a totally new offense and tons of new faces and people are upset that we had a worse record?

    Yes Mcarthy managed to win 3 more games then us, two of which were against us. His offense is not the WCO, his offense is nearly the same offense that has been built around Brett Farve for years. They have a HOF QB, he has a go to Pro Bowl WR, they have a solid running game, a very dominant MLB.................

    Apples and Oranges.

    I agree he is the biggest difference, so what? The changes we went through and magnitude of those changes are huge. Face the facts new owner, new players, new coaching staff........this is rebuilding mode. Always has been and the best part is it was well understood by most fans that this year would be rough, but what happened? We won early.

    So how much sense does it make that Childress gets blasted for trying to bring it together? How much sense does it make to blame him for running zone blocking 1 out of 4 plays when your lineman obviously are not picking it up fast enough? Not much at all IMO. You guys are basically bitching about him giving you some hope and something to cheer about. Had he come in and lost early most people may still be sticking my the intelligent things they said in pre-season instead of pulling things out of their jiggly butt to make the coach look bad.
    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every new head coach brings in new systems or at least adjustments to a system that is already in place.
    Yes McCarthy is running pretty much the same offense that they have always run, and it is a WCO.
    But Mangini and Payton completely changed their rosters around, the Jets not so much, but the Saints had more new players than any other team in the NFL by far.
    Both coaches also brought in competely different systems.
    Both made the playoffs, one the NFC championship, and hopefully the Super Bowl.
    When Childress took over it was NOT supposed to be rebuilding, so do not give him a break and say it was a rebuilding year because it was not supposed to be a rebuilding year, if it was there should have been far more changes to the roster than what was made.

    Childress did worse than any other new head coach this year besides Miranelli, hell we are drafting even higher than the Texans, same record yes, but we get to draft higher because they had a tougher schedule.
    When you lose so many games by 1 score or less like we did, it is not because of players underachieving, it is from the coaching moves made throughout the game, I do some coaching for the school year and i have been to a few coaching clinics, and they all say the same thing, players win games and coaches lose them.
    Yes hopefully things are turned around next year, but Childress does not get a free pass for this being his first year, and it is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes and what players did the saints add to an already solid foundation? Drew Brees....Reggie Bush....

    Yes it is Apples and Oranges.

    I do coaching as well I have been doing it for 4 years 2 years HS and 2 years defensive assistant DIV 1 A, and I feel confident in saying he absolutely gets a free pass and I expect to see great strides in our improvement next year and when that happens it will only validate my stance even more.

    I don't know where you are from but where I am from, a new owner, new coach, new system, the trading of your pro bowl QB, a new full time RB, a new defense, a new QB, a loss of your #1 WR, sounds a whole hell of alot like rebuilding to me. Wether it was intended or not it is the facts of the matter, so stop trying to project the season as not being a rebuilding mode. Look at the new faces the loss of personel and tell me what about this season was not rebuilding.

    Lets recap.

    Green Owner
    First time HC with new staff
    New systems offensively and defensively
    New QB, the trading of DC
    New RB
    New Kicker
    New Offensive Lineman only one was starting last season BM
    Loss of Koren Robinson our #1 WR
    Loss of a LB our #1 Draft Pick
    Loss of Nate Burleson


    Sorry people he gets a pass from me. I could care less what anger, what fallacy, or what dissapointment you all are bringing your heat from. Faced with this diversity with this set of situational obstacles I think comparing him to the GB coach and even Sean Payton who inherited a team with a solid defense, a star WR, and a Star Rb (Deuce) is laughable at best.

    What about this season would make you think it wasn't a chinease fire drill? AND FOR EXTRA CREDIT answer this.

    What other new head coach dealt with as much change as ours?
    I hope he does turn everything around and that you are right.
    But your point that the Saints added Drew Brees does not make sense, we had the same chance to sign him as they did but we didn't.
    We already knew that we were trying to trade Culpepper so there is no reason they shouldn't have.
    Yes they took a chance and it turned out well for them. The only thing we could not have done that the Saints did was draft Reggie Bush

    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every head coach has the same opportunities, it is what they do with them that matters.
    All the new head coaches brought in new systems this year, except McCarthy, that I know of anyway, I may be wrong, so don't blame it on that he needs time to implement his system.
    However for the benifit of your argument Del it does still take time and for whatever reason those other teams learned it faster, could be the player, could be the coaches, I dont know.

    No he does not get a free pass, you can't give him a break because it was his first year, other first year coaches improved their teams, ours did not.

    I am not saying fire the guy, I am not saying he won't turn out to be the best coach in Vikings history, it is very possilbe that he could, and I hope he will be, but the man does not get a free pass.

  3. #103
    Prophet's Avatar
    Prophet is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "patistheman" wrote:
    ...but the man does not get a free pass.
    Yes he does, ask Zygi.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  4. #104
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    I don't see this as a Witch Hunt, I see this more as shell shock.
    We were 9-7 under a coach that many considered incompetant, we added talent in the off season, and with the softest schedule we're likely to see in many years, we went 6-10 and were HUMILIATED versus teams that we should have hammered.

    The thing is, there is no one thing to point at and say, "That's where we went wrong".
    Instead, there are so many that prioritizing them is a nightmare.
    The obvious conclusion?
    Blame the Head Coach...after all, that's what he's there for.

    This compounds when you consider the fact that Mike McCarthy, a guy with a worse resume and a far worse talent pool, went 8-8 in HIS first HC season...and swept us.

    Personally, I think that we are very talent poor on offense...especially at QB and WR.
    We're soft on the right side of the line, and McKinney is a big question mark.
    Childress didn't make things easier by calling his own plays - and failing to make progress throughout the season.


    Maybe next season it all magically comes together, but when I look at our upcomming opponents, I can only shake my head and dream of days gone by when that would have been an interesting set of match ups...not a slaughter in the making.
    After all, we can only estimate our "next season" performance on our "last season" performance...if that holds true, we're screwed.

    Add in the fact that we are exiting an era of dynamic offenses in Minnesota.
    An era of high flying passing games and clock eating running games that combined to score copious quantities of points...something we saw very little of this season.

    Sure, we can all point at our run defense and say, "well at least THAT was good", but when held up next to the pass defense - which wasn't so good - even that loses it's luster.


    The long and the short of it is that we watched our team fail to score against most teams, then watched those same teams score on us...repeatedly.
    Not a lot to cheer about there.

    So, since there are no fans in the world who actively choose to hope their team sucks, we seek solutions.
    And, in an era of immediate gratification, we want them NOW.


    The biggest single difference between last season (9-7) and this season (6-10) is the Head Coach.
    Doesn't it make sense that Childress will draw a lot of fire and criticism for failing to improve upon the record of a guy that many fans were convinced was incompetant?
    Especially since HE was granted an almost wide open check book by our owner...something the "incompetant" guy NEVER had the luxury of?
    Makes sense to me.

    Is it all REALLY Brad Childress' fault?
    Nope.
    Our Players failed to perform...PERIOD.
    It was a 16 week campaign of incompetance and ineptitude, the likes of which I hope I never witness again.

    So, we head into the off season with more than a small amount of trepidation.
    Can our team put the right players on the field NEXT season, or will we again be humiliated for 4 months?
    Will our Coaches validate and vindicate themselves next season by performing up to the standards we have come to expect in Minnesota, or will it be another excersize in futility?


    I'm not going to call for Childress' head this season...I'm not a big believer in him or his system right now, but I'm willing to give him a chance.
    We'll see.

    Caine
    Humiliated? How is losing the majority of our games by less then one score a humiliation?

    The players did not perform.

    I really fail to see the connection that is being made time and time again of all this new talent we added and how we should be better by deafault from last year. Mike Tice was running an offense that we have been running for 9+ years. You bring in a new coaching staff a totally new offense and tons of new faces and people are upset that we had a worse record?

    Yes Mcarthy managed to win 3 more games then us, two of which were against us. His offense is not the WCO, his offense is nearly the same offense that has been built around Brett Farve for years. They have a HOF QB, he has a go to Pro Bowl WR, they have a solid running game, a very dominant MLB.................

    Apples and Oranges.

    I agree he is the biggest difference, so what? The changes we went through and magnitude of those changes are huge. Face the facts new owner, new players, new coaching staff........this is rebuilding mode. Always has been and the best part is it was well understood by most fans that this year would be rough, but what happened? We won early.

    So how much sense does it make that Childress gets blasted for trying to bring it together? How much sense does it make to blame him for running zone blocking 1 out of 4 plays when your lineman obviously are not picking it up fast enough? Not much at all IMO. You guys are basically bitching about him giving you some hope and something to cheer about. Had he come in and lost early most people may still be sticking my the intelligent things they said in pre-season instead of pulling things out of their jiggly butt to make the coach look bad.
    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every new head coach brings in new systems or at least adjustments to a system that is already in place.
    Yes McCarthy is running pretty much the same offense that they have always run, and it is a WCO.
    But Mangini and Payton completely changed their rosters around, the Jets not so much, but the Saints had more new players than any other team in the NFL by far.
    Both coaches also brought in competely different systems.
    Both made the playoffs, one the NFC championship, and hopefully the Super Bowl.
    When Childress took over it was NOT supposed to be rebuilding, so do not give him a break and say it was a rebuilding year because it was not supposed to be a rebuilding year, if it was there should have been far more changes to the roster than what was made.

    Childress did worse than any other new head coach this year besides Miranelli, hell we are drafting even higher than the Texans, same record yes, but we get to draft higher because they had a tougher schedule.
    When you lose so many games by 1 score or less like we did, it is not because of players underachieving, it is from the coaching moves made throughout the game, I do some coaching for the school year and i have been to a few coaching clinics, and they all say the same thing, players win games and coaches lose them.
    Yes hopefully things are turned around next year, but Childress does not get a free pass for this being his first year, and it is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes and what players did the saints add to an already solid foundation? Drew Brees....Reggie Bush....

    Yes it is Apples and Oranges.

    I do coaching as well I have been doing it for 4 years 2 years HS and 2 years defensive assistant DIV 1 A, and I feel confident in saying he absolutely gets a free pass and I expect to see great strides in our improvement next year and when that happens it will only validate my stance even more.

    I don't know where you are from but where I am from, a new owner, new coach, new system, the trading of your pro bowl QB, a new full time RB, a new defense, a new QB, a loss of your #1 WR, sounds a whole hell of alot like rebuilding to me. Wether it was intended or not it is the facts of the matter, so stop trying to project the season as not being a rebuilding mode. Look at the new faces the loss of personel and tell me what about this season was not rebuilding.

    Lets recap.

    Green Owner
    First time HC with new staff
    New systems offensively and defensively
    New QB, the trading of DC
    New RB
    New Kicker
    New Offensive Lineman only one was starting last season BM
    Loss of Koren Robinson our #1 WR
    Loss of a LB our #1 Draft Pick
    Loss of Nate Burleson


    Sorry people he gets a pass from me. I could care less what anger, what fallacy, or what dissapointment you all are bringing your heat from. Faced with this diversity with this set of situational obstacles I think comparing him to the GB coach and even Sean Payton who inherited a team with a solid defense, a star WR, and a Star Rb (Deuce) is laughable at best.

    What about this season would make you think it wasn't a chinease fire drill? AND FOR EXTRA CREDIT answer this.

    What other new head coach dealt with as much change as ours?
    I hope he does turn everything around and that you are right.
    But your point that the Saints added Drew Brees does not make sense, we had the same chance to sign him as they did but we didn't.
    We already knew that we were trying to trade Culpepper so there is no reason they shouldn't have.
    Yes they took a chance and it turned out well for them. The only thing we could not have done that the Saints did was draft Reggie Bush

    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every head coach has the same opportunities, it is what they do with them that matters.
    All the new head coaches brought in new systems this year, except McCarthy, that I know of anyway, I may be wrong, so don't blame it on that he needs time to implement his system.
    However for the benifit of your argument Del it does still take time and for whatever reason those other teams learned it faster, could be the player, could be the coaches, I dont know.

    No he does not get a free pass, you can't give him a break because it was his first year, other first year coaches improved their teams, ours did not.

    I am not saying fire the guy, I am not saying he won't turn out to be the best coach in Vikings history, it is very possilbe that he could, and I hope he will be, but the man does not get a free pass.
    No other new head coach faced the personel changes that we did not one.

    We did not have a shot a Drew Brees. Why do people assume if he is available he is attainable. Early on it came down to the Dolphins and the Saints in a bid war. We had too many holes to fill, Hutch cost money, Richardson cost money, C. taylor cost money. We never had a chance to get Brees.

    We will have to agree to disagree because to me it is absolutely apples and oranges you are trying to compare coaching staffs that made little to no change in ther schemes, inherited teams with potential HOF players at skill positions and had at least one go to guy at WR and RB to a coaching staff that had a banged up O-line from the get go, had a first round draft pick go down, had no kicker, had no full time RB, had their two best WR's not available to play, loss of a pro-bowl QB.

    I don't buy it. I don't buy that a 300 pound lineman cannot occassionaly zone block because they do not for Denver because Denver utilizes it all game long.

    It's just reaching at straws IMO. Does he have to improve? Yes he does, does he need to take this offseason and make huge strides in personel and performance all around yes he does.

    Should his record be held against Tices last season NOPE, Should he be compared to these other teams who didnt go through near the same change as we did his first year? NOPE.

    So at this point I agree to disagree an leave it at that.

  5. #105
    patistheman's Avatar
    patistheman is offline Starter
    Join Date
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "Del" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    [quote author=Caine link=topic=30304.msg524903#msg524903 date=1169069669]
    I don't see this as a Witch Hunt, I see this more as shell shock.
    We were 9-7 under a coach that many considered incompetant, we added talent in the off season, and with the softest schedule we're likely to see in many years, we went 6-10 and were HUMILIATED versus teams that we should have hammered.

    The thing is, there is no one thing to point at and say, "That's where we went wrong".
    Instead, there are so many that prioritizing them is a nightmare.
    The obvious conclusion?
    Blame the Head Coach...after all, that's what he's there for.

    This compounds when you consider the fact that Mike McCarthy, a guy with a worse resume and a far worse talent pool, went 8-8 in HIS first HC season...and swept us.

    Personally, I think that we are very talent poor on offense...especially at QB and WR.
    We're soft on the right side of the line, and McKinney is a big question mark.
    Childress didn't make things easier by calling his own plays - and failing to make progress throughout the season.


    Maybe next season it all magically comes together, but when I look at our upcomming opponents, I can only shake my head and dream of days gone by when that would have been an interesting set of match ups...not a slaughter in the making.
    After all, we can only estimate our "next season" performance on our "last season" performance...if that holds true, we're screwed.

    Add in the fact that we are exiting an era of dynamic offenses in Minnesota.
    An era of high flying passing games and clock eating running games that combined to score copious quantities of points...something we saw very little of this season.

    Sure, we can all point at our run defense and say, "well at least THAT was good", but when held up next to the pass defense - which wasn't so good - even that loses it's luster.


    The long and the short of it is that we watched our team fail to score against most teams, then watched those same teams score on us...repeatedly.
    Not a lot to cheer about there.

    So, since there are no fans in the world who actively choose to hope their team sucks, we seek solutions.
    And, in an era of immediate gratification, we want them NOW.


    The biggest single difference between last season (9-7) and this season (6-10) is the Head Coach.
    Doesn't it make sense that Childress will draw a lot of fire and criticism for failing to improve upon the record of a guy that many fans were convinced was incompetant?
    Especially since HE was granted an almost wide open check book by our owner...something the "incompetant" guy NEVER had the luxury of?
    Makes sense to me.

    Is it all REALLY Brad Childress' fault?
    Nope.
    Our Players failed to perform...PERIOD.
    It was a 16 week campaign of incompetance and ineptitude, the likes of which I hope I never witness again.

    So, we head into the off season with more than a small amount of trepidation.
    Can our team put the right players on the field NEXT season, or will we again be humiliated for 4 months?
    Will our Coaches validate and vindicate themselves next season by performing up to the standards we have come to expect in Minnesota, or will it be another excersize in futility?


    I'm not going to call for Childress' head this season...I'm not a big believer in him or his system right now, but I'm willing to give him a chance.
    We'll see.

    Caine
    Humiliated? How is losing the majority of our games by less then one score a humiliation?

    The players did not perform.

    I really fail to see the connection that is being made time and time again of all this new talent we added and how we should be better by deafault from last year. Mike Tice was running an offense that we have been running for 9+ years. You bring in a new coaching staff a totally new offense and tons of new faces and people are upset that we had a worse record?

    Yes Mcarthy managed to win 3 more games then us, two of which were against us. His offense is not the WCO, his offense is nearly the same offense that has been built around Brett Farve for years. They have a HOF QB, he has a go to Pro Bowl WR, they have a solid running game, a very dominant MLB.................

    Apples and Oranges.

    I agree he is the biggest difference, so what? The changes we went through and magnitude of those changes are huge. Face the facts new owner, new players, new coaching staff........this is rebuilding mode. Always has been and the best part is it was well understood by most fans that this year would be rough, but what happened? We won early.

    So how much sense does it make that Childress gets blasted for trying to bring it together? How much sense does it make to blame him for running zone blocking 1 out of 4 plays when your lineman obviously are not picking it up fast enough? Not much at all IMO. You guys are basically bitching about him giving you some hope and something to cheer about. Had he come in and lost early most people may still be sticking my the intelligent things they said in pre-season instead of pulling things out of their jiggly butt to make the coach look bad.
    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every new head coach brings in new systems or at least adjustments to a system that is already in place.
    Yes McCarthy is running pretty much the same offense that they have always run, and it is a WCO.
    But Mangini and Payton completely changed their rosters around, the Jets not so much, but the Saints had more new players than any other team in the NFL by far.
    Both coaches also brought in competely different systems.
    Both made the playoffs, one the NFC championship, and hopefully the Super Bowl.
    When Childress took over it was NOT supposed to be rebuilding, so do not give him a break and say it was a rebuilding year because it was not supposed to be a rebuilding year, if it was there should have been far more changes to the roster than what was made.

    Childress did worse than any other new head coach this year besides Miranelli, hell we are drafting even higher than the Texans, same record yes, but we get to draft higher because they had a tougher schedule.
    When you lose so many games by 1 score or less like we did, it is not because of players underachieving, it is from the coaching moves made throughout the game, I do some coaching for the school year and i have been to a few coaching clinics, and they all say the same thing, players win games and coaches lose them.
    Yes hopefully things are turned around next year, but Childress does not get a free pass for this being his first year, and it is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes and what players did the saints add to an already solid foundation? Drew Brees....Reggie Bush....

    Yes it is Apples and Oranges.

    I do coaching as well I have been doing it for 4 years 2 years HS and 2 years defensive assistant DIV 1 A, and I feel confident in saying he absolutely gets a free pass and I expect to see great strides in our improvement next year and when that happens it will only validate my stance even more.

    I don't know where you are from but where I am from, a new owner, new coach, new system, the trading of your pro bowl QB, a new full time RB, a new defense, a new QB, a loss of your #1 WR, sounds a whole hell of alot like rebuilding to me. Wether it was intended or not it is the facts of the matter, so stop trying to project the season as not being a rebuilding mode. Look at the new faces the loss of personel and tell me what about this season was not rebuilding.

    Lets recap.

    Green Owner
    First time HC with new staff
    New systems offensively and defensively
    New QB, the trading of DC
    New RB
    New Kicker
    New Offensive Lineman only one was starting last season BM
    Loss of Koren Robinson our #1 WR
    Loss of a LB our #1 Draft Pick
    Loss of Nate Burleson


    Sorry people he gets a pass from me. I could care less what anger, what fallacy, or what dissapointment you all are bringing your heat from. Faced with this diversity with this set of situational obstacles I think comparing him to the GB coach and even Sean Payton who inherited a team with a solid defense, a star WR, and a Star Rb (Deuce) is laughable at best.

    What about this season would make you think it wasn't a chinease fire drill? AND FOR EXTRA CREDIT answer this.

    What other new head coach dealt with as much change as ours?
    I hope he does turn everything around and that you are right.
    But your point that the Saints added Drew Brees does not make sense, we had the same chance to sign him as they did but we didn't.
    We already knew that we were trying to trade Culpepper so there is no reason they shouldn't have.
    Yes they took a chance and it turned out well for them. The only thing we could not have done that the Saints did was draft Reggie Bush

    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every head coach has the same opportunities, it is what they do with them that matters.
    All the new head coaches brought in new systems this year, except McCarthy, that I know of anyway, I may be wrong, so don't blame it on that he needs time to implement his system.
    However for the benifit of your argument Del it does still take time and for whatever reason those other teams learned it faster, could be the player, could be the coaches, I dont know.

    No he does not get a free pass, you can't give him a break because it was his first year, other first year coaches improved their teams, ours did not.

    I am not saying fire the guy, I am not saying he won't turn out to be the best coach in Vikings history, it is very possilbe that he could, and I hope he will be, but the man does not get a free pass.
    No other new head coach faced the personel changes that we did not one.

    We did not have a shot a Drew Brees. Why do people assume if he is available he is attainable. Early on it came down to the Dolphins and the Saints in a bid war. We had too many holes to fill, Hutch cost money, Richardson cost money, C. taylor cost money. We never had a chance to get Brees.

    We will have to agree to disagree because to me it is absolutely apples and oranges you are trying to compare coaching staffs that made little to no change in ther schemes, inherited teams with potential HOF players at skill positions and had at least one go to guy at WR and RB to a coaching staff that had a banged up O-line from the get go, had a first round draft pick go down, had no kicker, had no full time RB, had their two best WR's not available to play, loss of a pro-bowl QB.

    I don't buy it. I don't buy that a 300 pound lineman cannot occassionaly zone block because they do not for Denver because Denver utilizes it all game long.

    It's just reaching at straws IMO. Does he have to improve? Yes he does, does he need to take this offseason and make huge strides in personel and performance all around yes he does.

    Should his record be held against Tices last season NOPE, Should he be compared to these other teams who didnt go through near the same change as we did his first year? NOPE.

    So at this point I agree to disagree an leave it at that.
    [/quote]

    Thats fine with me.
    You do have some great points, and its mostly because of some of your points im not so mad with him anymore.

  6. #106
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "patistheman" wrote:
    Thats fine with me.
    You do have some great points, and its mostly because of some of your points im not so mad with him anymore.
    Dear God, is it really necessary to quote 200 lines of text to add "That's fine with me."?????

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  7. #107
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    [quote author=patistheman link=topic=30304.msg525632#msg525632 date=1169221130]
    [quote author=Del Rio link=topic=30304.msg525578#msg525578 date=1169212993]
    [quote author=Caine link=topic=30304.msg524903#msg524903 date=1169069669]
    I don't see this as a Witch Hunt, I see this more as shell shock.
    We were 9-7 under a coach that many considered incompetant, we added talent in the off season, and with the softest schedule we're likely to see in many years, we went 6-10 and were HUMILIATED versus teams that we should have hammered.

    The thing is, there is no one thing to point at and say, "That's where we went wrong".
    Instead, there are so many that prioritizing them is a nightmare.
    The obvious conclusion?
    Blame the Head Coach...after all, that's what he's there for.

    This compounds when you consider the fact that Mike McCarthy, a guy with a worse resume and a far worse talent pool, went 8-8 in HIS first HC season...and swept us.

    Personally, I think that we are very talent poor on offense...especially at QB and WR.
    We're soft on the right side of the line, and McKinney is a big question mark.
    Childress didn't make things easier by calling his own plays - and failing to make progress throughout the season.


    Maybe next season it all magically comes together, but when I look at our upcomming opponents, I can only shake my head and dream of days gone by when that would have been an interesting set of match ups...not a slaughter in the making.
    After all, we can only estimate our "next season" performance on our "last season" performance...if that holds true, we're screwed.

    Add in the fact that we are exiting an era of dynamic offenses in Minnesota.
    An era of high flying passing games and clock eating running games that combined to score copious quantities of points...something we saw very little of this season.

    Sure, we can all point at our run defense and say, "well at least THAT was good", but when held up next to the pass defense - which wasn't so good - even that loses it's luster.


    The long and the short of it is that we watched our team fail to score against most teams, then watched those same teams score on us...repeatedly.
    Not a lot to cheer about there.

    So, since there are no fans in the world who actively choose to hope their team sucks, we seek solutions.
    And, in an era of immediate gratification, we want them NOW.


    The biggest single difference between last season (9-7) and this season (6-10) is the Head Coach.
    Doesn't it make sense that Childress will draw a lot of fire and criticism for failing to improve upon the record of a guy that many fans were convinced was incompetant?
    Especially since HE was granted an almost wide open check book by our owner...something the "incompetant" guy NEVER had the luxury of?
    Makes sense to me.

    Is it all REALLY Brad Childress' fault?
    Nope.
    Our Players failed to perform...PERIOD.
    It was a 16 week campaign of incompetance and ineptitude, the likes of which I hope I never witness again.

    So, we head into the off season with more than a small amount of trepidation.
    Can our team put the right players on the field NEXT season, or will we again be humiliated for 4 months?
    Will our Coaches validate and vindicate themselves next season by performing up to the standards we have come to expect in Minnesota, or will it be another excersize in futility?


    I'm not going to call for Childress' head this season...I'm not a big believer in him or his system right now, but I'm willing to give him a chance.
    We'll see.

    Caine
    Humiliated? How is losing the majority of our games by less then one score a humiliation?

    The players did not perform.

    I really fail to see the connection that is being made time and time again of all this new talent we added and how we should be better by deafault from last year. Mike Tice was running an offense that we have been running for 9+ years. You bring in a new coaching staff a totally new offense and tons of new faces and people are upset that we had a worse record?

    Yes Mcarthy managed to win 3 more games then us, two of which were against us. His offense is not the WCO, his offense is nearly the same offense that has been built around Brett Farve for years. They have a HOF QB, he has a go to Pro Bowl WR, they have a solid running game, a very dominant MLB.................

    Apples and Oranges.

    I agree he is the biggest difference, so what? The changes we went through and magnitude of those changes are huge. Face the facts new owner, new players, new coaching staff........this is rebuilding mode. Always has been and the best part is it was well understood by most fans that this year would be rough, but what happened? We won early.

    So how much sense does it make that Childress gets blasted for trying to bring it together? How much sense does it make to blame him for running zone blocking 1 out of 4 plays when your lineman obviously are not picking it up fast enough? Not much at all IMO. You guys are basically bitching about him giving you some hope and something to cheer about. Had he come in and lost early most people may still be sticking my the intelligent things they said in pre-season instead of pulling things out of their jiggly butt to make the coach look bad.
    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every new head coach brings in new systems or at least adjustments to a system that is already in place.
    Yes McCarthy is running pretty much the same offense that they have always run, and it is a WCO.
    But Mangini and Payton completely changed their rosters around, the Jets not so much, but the Saints had more new players than any other team in the NFL by far.
    Both coaches also brought in competely different systems.
    Both made the playoffs, one the NFC championship, and hopefully the Super Bowl.
    When Childress took over it was NOT supposed to be rebuilding, so do not give him a break and say it was a rebuilding year because it was not supposed to be a rebuilding year, if it was there should have been far more changes to the roster than what was made.

    Childress did worse than any other new head coach this year besides Miranelli, hell we are drafting even higher than the Texans, same record yes, but we get to draft higher because they had a tougher schedule.
    When you lose so many games by 1 score or less like we did, it is not because of players underachieving, it is from the coaching moves made throughout the game, I do some coaching for the school year and i have been to a few coaching clinics, and they all say the same thing, players win games and coaches lose them.
    Yes hopefully things are turned around next year, but Childress does not get a free pass for this being his first year, and it is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes and what players did the saints add to an already solid foundation? Drew Brees....Reggie Bush....

    Yes it is Apples and Oranges.

    I do coaching as well I have been doing it for 4 years 2 years HS and 2 years defensive assistant DIV 1 A, and I feel confident in saying he absolutely gets a free pass and I expect to see great strides in our improvement next year and when that happens it will only validate my stance even more.

    I don't know where you are from but where I am from, a new owner, new coach, new system, the trading of your pro bowl QB, a new full time RB, a new defense, a new QB, a loss of your #1 WR, sounds a whole hell of alot like rebuilding to me. Wether it was intended or not it is the facts of the matter, so stop trying to project the season as not being a rebuilding mode. Look at the new faces the loss of personel and tell me what about this season was not rebuilding.

    Lets recap.

    Green Owner
    First time HC with new staff
    New systems offensively and defensively
    New QB, the trading of DC
    New RB
    New Kicker
    New Offensive Lineman only one was starting last season BM
    Loss of Koren Robinson our #1 WR
    Loss of a LB our #1 Draft Pick
    Loss of Nate Burleson


    Sorry people he gets a pass from me. I could care less what anger, what fallacy, or what dissapointment you all are bringing your heat from. Faced with this diversity with this set of situational obstacles I think comparing him to the GB coach and even Sean Payton who inherited a team with a solid defense, a star WR, and a Star Rb (Deuce) is laughable at best.

    What about this season would make you think it wasn't a chinease fire drill? AND FOR EXTRA CREDIT answer this.

    What other new head coach dealt with as much change as ours?
    I hope he does turn everything around and that you are right.
    But your point that the Saints added Drew Brees does not make sense, we had the same chance to sign him as they did but we didn't.
    We already knew that we were trying to trade Culpepper so there is no reason they shouldn't have.
    Yes they took a chance and it turned out well for them. The only thing we could not have done that the Saints did was draft Reggie Bush

    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every head coach has the same opportunities, it is what they do with them that matters.
    All the new head coaches brought in new systems this year, except McCarthy, that I know of anyway, I may be wrong, so don't blame it on that he needs time to implement his system.
    However for the benifit of your argument Del it does still take time and for whatever reason those other teams learned it faster, could be the player, could be the coaches, I dont know.

    No he does not get a free pass, you can't give him a break because it was his first year, other first year coaches improved their teams, ours did not.

    I am not saying fire the guy, I am not saying he won't turn out to be the best coach in Vikings history, it is very possilbe that he could, and I hope he will be, but the man does not get a free pass.
    No other new head coach faced the personel changes that we did not one.

    We did not have a shot a Drew Brees. Why do people assume if he is available he is attainable. Early on it came down to the Dolphins and the Saints in a bid war. We had too many holes to fill, Hutch cost money, Richardson cost money, C. taylor cost money. We never had a chance to get Brees.

    We will have to agree to disagree because to me it is absolutely apples and oranges you are trying to compare coaching staffs that made little to no change in ther schemes, inherited teams with potential HOF players at skill positions and had at least one go to guy at WR and RB to a coaching staff that had a banged up O-line from the get go, had a first round draft pick go down, had no kicker, had no full time RB, had their two best WR's not available to play, loss of a pro-bowl QB.

    I don't buy it. I don't buy that a 300 pound lineman cannot occassionaly zone block because they do not for Denver because Denver utilizes it all game long.

    It's just reaching at straws IMO. Does he have to improve? Yes he does, does he need to take this offseason and make huge strides in personel and performance all around yes he does.

    Should his record be held against Tices last season NOPE, Should he be compared to these other teams who didnt go through near the same change as we did his first year? NOPE.

    So at this point I agree to disagree an leave it at that.
    [/quote]

    Thats fine with me.
    You do have some great points, and its mostly because of some of your points im not so mad with him anymore.
    [/quote]

    Dear God, is it really necessary to quote 200 lines of text to add "That's fine with me."?????

    =Z=
    [/quote]

    Yes.
    ;D:P

  8. #108
    Prophet's Avatar
    Prophet is offline Jersey Retired
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    17,388

    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "josdin00" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "patistheman" wrote:
    [quote author=Del Rio link=topic=30304.msg525633#msg525633 date=1169221386]
    [quote author=patistheman link=topic=30304.msg525632#msg525632 date=1169221130]
    [quote author=Del Rio link=topic=30304.msg525578#msg525578 date=1169212993]
    [quote author=Caine link=topic=30304.msg524903#msg524903 date=1169069669]
    I don't see this as a Witch Hunt, I see this more as shell shock.
    We were 9-7 under a coach that many considered incompetant, we added talent in the off season, and with the softest schedule we're likely to see in many years, we went 6-10 and were HUMILIATED versus teams that we should have hammered.

    The thing is, there is no one thing to point at and say, "That's where we went wrong".
    Instead, there are so many that prioritizing them is a nightmare.
    The obvious conclusion?
    Blame the Head Coach...after all, that's what he's there for.

    This compounds when you consider the fact that Mike McCarthy, a guy with a worse resume and a far worse talent pool, went 8-8 in HIS first HC season...and swept us.

    Personally, I think that we are very talent poor on offense...especially at QB and WR.
    We're soft on the right side of the line, and McKinney is a big question mark.
    Childress didn't make things easier by calling his own plays - and failing to make progress throughout the season.


    Maybe next season it all magically comes together, but when I look at our upcomming opponents, I can only shake my head and dream of days gone by when that would have been an interesting set of match ups...not a slaughter in the making.
    After all, we can only estimate our "next season" performance on our "last season" performance...if that holds true, we're screwed.

    Add in the fact that we are exiting an era of dynamic offenses in Minnesota.
    An era of high flying passing games and clock eating running games that combined to score copious quantities of points...something we saw very little of this season.

    Sure, we can all point at our run defense and say, "well at least THAT was good", but when held up next to the pass defense - which wasn't so good - even that loses it's luster.


    The long and the short of it is that we watched our team fail to score against most teams, then watched those same teams score on us...repeatedly.
    Not a lot to cheer about there.

    So, since there are no fans in the world who actively choose to hope their team sucks, we seek solutions.
    And, in an era of immediate gratification, we want them NOW.


    The biggest single difference between last season (9-7) and this season (6-10) is the Head Coach.
    Doesn't it make sense that Childress will draw a lot of fire and criticism for failing to improve upon the record of a guy that many fans were convinced was incompetant?
    Especially since HE was granted an almost wide open check book by our owner...something the "incompetant" guy NEVER had the luxury of?
    Makes sense to me.

    Is it all REALLY Brad Childress' fault?
    Nope.
    Our Players failed to perform...PERIOD.
    It was a 16 week campaign of incompetance and ineptitude, the likes of which I hope I never witness again.

    So, we head into the off season with more than a small amount of trepidation.
    Can our team put the right players on the field NEXT season, or will we again be humiliated for 4 months?
    Will our Coaches validate and vindicate themselves next season by performing up to the standards we have come to expect in Minnesota, or will it be another excersize in futility?


    I'm not going to call for Childress' head this season...I'm not a big believer in him or his system right now, but I'm willing to give him a chance.
    We'll see.

    Caine
    Humiliated? How is losing the majority of our games by less then one score a humiliation?

    The players did not perform.

    I really fail to see the connection that is being made time and time again of all this new talent we added and how we should be better by deafault from last year. Mike Tice was running an offense that we have been running for 9+ years. You bring in a new coaching staff a totally new offense and tons of new faces and people are upset that we had a worse record?

    Yes Mcarthy managed to win 3 more games then us, two of which were against us. His offense is not the WCO, his offense is nearly the same offense that has been built around Brett Farve for years. They have a HOF QB, he has a go to Pro Bowl WR, they have a solid running game, a very dominant MLB.................

    Apples and Oranges.

    I agree he is the biggest difference, so what? The changes we went through and magnitude of those changes are huge. Face the facts new owner, new players, new coaching staff........this is rebuilding mode. Always has been and the best part is it was well understood by most fans that this year would be rough, but what happened? We won early.

    So how much sense does it make that Childress gets blasted for trying to bring it together? How much sense does it make to blame him for running zone blocking 1 out of 4 plays when your lineman obviously are not picking it up fast enough? Not much at all IMO. You guys are basically bitching about him giving you some hope and something to cheer about. Had he come in and lost early most people may still be sticking my the intelligent things they said in pre-season instead of pulling things out of their jiggly butt to make the coach look bad.
    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every new head coach brings in new systems or at least adjustments to a system that is already in place.
    Yes McCarthy is running pretty much the same offense that they have always run, and it is a WCO.
    But Mangini and Payton completely changed their rosters around, the Jets not so much, but the Saints had more new players than any other team in the NFL by far.
    Both coaches also brought in competely different systems.
    Both made the playoffs, one the NFC championship, and hopefully the Super Bowl.
    When Childress took over it was NOT supposed to be rebuilding, so do not give him a break and say it was a rebuilding year because it was not supposed to be a rebuilding year, if it was there should have been far more changes to the roster than what was made.

    Childress did worse than any other new head coach this year besides Miranelli, hell we are drafting even higher than the Texans, same record yes, but we get to draft higher because they had a tougher schedule.
    When you lose so many games by 1 score or less like we did, it is not because of players underachieving, it is from the coaching moves made throughout the game, I do some coaching for the school year and i have been to a few coaching clinics, and they all say the same thing, players win games and coaches lose them.
    Yes hopefully things are turned around next year, but Childress does not get a free pass for this being his first year, and it is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes and what players did the saints add to an already solid foundation? Drew Brees....Reggie Bush....

    Yes it is Apples and Oranges.

    I do coaching as well I have been doing it for 4 years 2 years HS and 2 years defensive assistant DIV 1 A, and I feel confident in saying he absolutely gets a free pass and I expect to see great strides in our improvement next year and when that happens it will only validate my stance even more.

    I don't know where you are from but where I am from, a new owner, new coach, new system, the trading of your pro bowl QB, a new full time RB, a new defense, a new QB, a loss of your #1 WR, sounds a whole hell of alot like rebuilding to me. Wether it was intended or not it is the facts of the matter, so stop trying to project the season as not being a rebuilding mode. Look at the new faces the loss of personel and tell me what about this season was not rebuilding.

    Lets recap.

    Green Owner
    First time HC with new staff
    New systems offensively and defensively
    New QB, the trading of DC
    New RB
    New Kicker
    New Offensive Lineman only one was starting last season BM
    Loss of Koren Robinson our #1 WR
    Loss of a LB our #1 Draft Pick
    Loss of Nate Burleson


    Sorry people he gets a pass from me. I could care less what anger, what fallacy, or what dissapointment you all are bringing your heat from. Faced with this diversity with this set of situational obstacles I think comparing him to the GB coach and even Sean Payton who inherited a team with a solid defense, a star WR, and a Star Rb (Deuce) is laughable at best.

    What about this season would make you think it wasn't a chinease fire drill? AND FOR EXTRA CREDIT answer this.

    What other new head coach dealt with as much change as ours?
    I hope he does turn everything around and that you are right.
    But your point that the Saints added Drew Brees does not make sense, we had the same chance to sign him as they did but we didn't.
    We already knew that we were trying to trade Culpepper so there is no reason they shouldn't have.
    Yes they took a chance and it turned out well for them. The only thing we could not have done that the Saints did was draft Reggie Bush

    It is not like comparing apples and oranges.
    Every head coach has the same opportunities, it is what they do with them that matters.
    All the new head coaches brought in new systems this year, except McCarthy, that I know of anyway, I may be wrong, so don't blame it on that he needs time to implement his system.
    However for the benifit of your argument Del it does still take time and for whatever reason those other teams learned it faster, could be the player, could be the coaches, I dont know.

    No he does not get a free pass, you can't give him a break because it was his first year, other first year coaches improved their teams, ours did not.

    I am not saying fire the guy, I am not saying he won't turn out to be the best coach in Vikings history, it is very possilbe that he could, and I hope he will be, but the man does not get a free pass.
    No other new head coach faced the personel changes that we did not one.

    We did not have a shot a Drew Brees. Why do people assume if he is available he is attainable. Early on it came down to the Dolphins and the Saints in a bid war. We had too many holes to fill, Hutch cost money, Richardson cost money, C. taylor cost money. We never had a chance to get Brees.

    We will have to agree to disagree because to me it is absolutely apples and oranges you are trying to compare coaching staffs that made little to no change in ther schemes, inherited teams with potential HOF players at skill positions and had at least one go to guy at WR and RB to a coaching staff that had a banged up O-line from the get go, had a first round draft pick go down, had no kicker, had no full time RB, had their two best WR's not available to play, loss of a pro-bowl QB.

    I don't buy it. I don't buy that a 300 pound lineman cannot occassionaly zone block because they do not for Denver because Denver utilizes it all game long.

    It's just reaching at straws IMO. Does he have to improve? Yes he does, does he need to take this offseason and make huge strides in personel and performance all around yes he does.

    Should his record be held against Tices last season NOPE, Should he be compared to these other teams who didnt go through near the same change as we did his first year? NOPE.

    So at this point I agree to disagree an leave it at that.
    [/quote]

    Thats fine with me.
    You do have some great points, and its mostly because of some of your points im not so mad with him anymore.
    [/quote]

    Dear God, is it really necessary to quote 200 lines of text to add "That's fine with me."?????

    =Z=
    [/quote]

    Yes.

    ;D:P
    [/quote]
    I never really understood that either.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  9. #109
    vikes2456's Avatar
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    How come this team has been "rebuilding" for around 5 years now

  10. #110
    BigMoInAZ's Avatar
    BigMoInAZ is offline Pro-Bowler
    Join Date
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    Re: Making the case for Childress

    "vikes2456" wrote:
    How come this team has been "rebuilding" for around 5 years now
    Because we're all on a "Witch Hunt!" :
    I really think Brad Childress is a MEDIOCRE coach and that's just based on my humble opinion of coaching evaluation honed over 30+ years of playing and coaching this sport.
    Now does that make my opinion any more or less valued?
    Of course frigging not!
    I'll gladly eat some Crow if this douche bag of a person can work his magic and get his "kick ass" offense to work, but I'm not holding my breath!

    Lo there, do I see the line of my People...Back to the Beginning.
    Lo do They call to me...They bid me take my Place among Them...in the Halls of VALHALLA where t

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