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  1. #71
    tarkenton10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    I hear ya.....

    This type of drivel is what makes me worry about the fan base old friend. Its like no one that is a Vikings fan understands what the heck it takes to develop a QB.

    If he doesn't run out there from day one and perform at a HOF level they want his butt gone. I blame the yutz sports hacks who also don't have a clue.
    The problem with today's QBs is they do have to perform now because of the money they receive. Bradford signed for what 90 million dollars;you can't leave that kind of money on the bench. In the 60', 70's, 80's and even into the 90's the system was to draft an heir apparent let him learn under the veteran and then give him the reins in approximately three years. So if we drafted Ponder back in 1981, let's say to replace Fran "the man" he would have gotten valuable information and grooming by one of the best of all time. And he would be starting his first year right now, big difference and a big reason why great QB's in college flame out sometimes and people scratch their heads.
    Last edited by tarkenton10; 05-06-2013 at 09:16 AM.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  2. #72
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    The problem with today's QBs are they do have to perform now because of the money they receive. Bradford signed for what 90 million dollars;you can't leave that kind of money on the bench. In the 60', 70's,80's and even into the 90's the system was to draft an heir apparent let him learn under the veteran and then give him the reins in approximately three years. So if we drafted Ponder back in 1981, let's say to replace Fran "the man" he waould have gotten valuable information and grooming by one of the best of all time. And he would be strating his first year right now, big difference and a big reason why great QB's in coolege flame out and people scratch their heads.
    But see, that isn't the case anymore......

    Ponder
    7/31/2011: Signed a four-year, $10.15 million contract. The deal is fully guaranteed, including a $5,888,144 signing bonus. 2013: $1,298,518, 2014: $1,760,277, 2015: Free Agent

    Kaep
    7/28/2011: Signed a four-year, $5.22 million contract. The deal contains $3.8 million guaranteed, including a $2.26 million signing bonus. 2013: $740,844, 2014: $973,766, 2015: Free Agent

    Dalton
    7/29/2011: Signed a four-year, $5.214 million contract. The deal included a $2.292 million signing bonus. 2013: $749,018 (+ $100,000 reporting bonus), 2014: $986,027 (+ $100,000 reporting bonus), 2015: Free Agent

    The madness is over. You can take a kid in the first round, and take him high, and let him grow the way he is supposed to, on the bench, making mistakes in practice instead of on the field.

    The only reason why teams are still doing it is because it does quicken the development process and it helps staff figure out if they have the right guy quicker. Believe it or not, a guy making mistakes on the field doesn't mean that he isn't their guy. He is just a kid making mistakes like all players do.

    Problem is, its at the position most fans watch or even think they understand.

    For instance, most fans think Smitty had a great year last year when the truth of the matter is he really struggled at times. If he wouldn't have graded out so well in the pass coverage area, they would have really picked up on his penalties (graded out as 78th worse out of 88) and run support (graded out as 71rst worse out of 88).

    Again, fans love the INT but don't have a clue what a S does or doesn't do right in run support.
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  3. #73
    tarkenton10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    But see, that isn't the case anymore......

    Ponder
    7/31/2011: Signed a four-year, $10.15 million contract. The deal is fully guaranteed, including a $5,888,144 signing bonus. 2013: $1,298,518, 2014: $1,760,277, 2015: Free Agent

    Kaep
    7/28/2011: Signed a four-year, $5.22 million contract. The deal contains $3.8 million guaranteed, including a $2.26 million signing bonus. 2013: $740,844, 2014: $973,766, 2015: Free Agent

    Dalton
    7/29/2011: Signed a four-year, $5.214 million contract. The deal included a $2.292 million signing bonus. 2013: $749,018 (+ $100,000 reporting bonus), 2014: $986,027 (+ $100,000 reporting bonus), 2015: Free Agent

    The madness is over. You can take a kid in the first round, and take him high, and let him grow the way he is supposed to, on the bench, making mistakes in practice instead of on the field.

    The only reason why teams are still doing it is because it does quicken the development process and it helps staff figure out if they have the right guy quicker. Believe it or not, a guy making mistakes on the field doesn't mean that he isn't their guy. He is just a kid making mistakes like all players do.

    Problem is, its at the position most fans watch or even think they understand.

    For instance, most fans think Smitty had a great year last year when the truth of the matter is he really struggled at times. If he wouldn't have graded out so well in the pass coverage area, they would have really picked up on his penalties (graded out as 78th worse out of 88) and run support (graded out as 71rst worse out of 88).

    Again, fans love the INT but don't have a clue what a S does or doesn't do right in run support.
    I think you are starting to see it go back to the way it was now that the collective bargaining agreement has passed. The pats took a young guy to replace Brady, as did the Giants this year. They may never need them but teams are taking risks again because they don't have 90 million in one position that is a rookie. As did the Steelers.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    I think you are starting to see it go back to the way it was now that the collective bargaining agreement has passed. The pats took a young guy to replace Brady, as did the Giants this year. They may never need them but teams are taking risks again because they don't have 90 million in one position that is a rookie. As did the Steelers.
    Exactly.
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  5. #75
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Doesn't matter were he was drafted by the team. He was projected as a 2 or 3 year project.
    I don't remember that at all. I remember reading he was the most NFL ready QB and such and possibly that he needed a year to get up to speed but what was said was that he was extremely intelligent and would pick up the game very quickly.


    This is not going to be a case where he is first thought to be ready in year two, then pushed to a 2-3 year project like TJ and then a 5-10 year developmental guy.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    I don't remember that at all. I remember reading he was the most NFL ready QB and such and possibly that he needed a year to get up to speed but what was said was that he was extremely intelligent and would pick up the game very quickly.


    This is not going to be a case where he is first thought to be ready in year two, then pushed to a 2-3 year project like TJ and then a 5-10 year developmental guy.
    I read that as well, just like I read numerous ones that said he had significant issues he ad to work through to be a NFL QB. In the end, at that point I thought he was the most NFL ready (based on some of those) next to Locker. Doesn't mean they weren't considered projects. Just meant they weren't as much of a project.

    Besides, you know me, I dont' think any rookie QB is NFL ready. Some come in and catch the league by surprise because of things the do that is new, but in the end, they all wind up faltering.


    Here are the ones I had bookmarked....

    Christian Ponder*|*Florida State,*QB*:*2011 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

    Christian Ponder, Florida State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
    2011 Tennessee Titans QB Draft Prospect: Christian Ponder

    Scouting Report: Christian Ponder | Draft Breakdown

    2011 NFL Draft: Is Christian Ponder a Better QB Prospect Than Jake Locker? | Bleacher Report
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  7. #77
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Musgrave is not making it easy for fans to trust in Ponder. Those short passes that depend on YAC for a first down on third down just make me want to puke up my Grape Nehi soda.

    Ponder still makes a lot of young QB errors like staring down a receiver and throwing into coverage. He tucks a bit too quickly as well, and that will get him injured.

    Quarterbacks like Brady, Favre, and Peyton Manning look off defenders, run quickly through progressions, and get the ball out quickly to the hot receiver if the play breaks down. Favre almost toyed with defenders because Brett knew the game, the playbook, and the defenses so well. That is where we want to be with Ponder.

  8. #78
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    Musgrave is not making it easy for fans to trust in Ponder. Those short passes that depend on YAC for a first down on third down just make me want to puke up my Grape Nehi soda.
    I completely disagree that Musgrave is making it hard on anyone. Musgrave deserves a helluva lot of credit for coming up with a passing gameplan that actually worked (somewhat) given the talent he had to work with at QB and WR.

    If we had a QB who was capable of getting the ball downfield fast enough to catch defenders out of position, or if we had a WR who was able to go up and get the ball in heavy traffic, we would have seen more downfield passes last season.

    We may see more now that we have a stronger WR corps, but I expect to see a lot of short game still since our QB situation is the same... or at least it will be at the start of the season. Who knows what the entire season may bring.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  9. #79
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I completely disagree that Musgrave is making it hard on anyone. Musgrave deserves a helluva lot of credit for coming up with a passing gameplan that actually worked (somewhat) given the talent he had to work with at QB and WR.

    If we had a QB who was capable of getting the ball downfield fast enough to catch defenders out of position, or if we had a WR who was able to go up and get the ball in heavy traffic, we would have seen more downfield passes last season.

    We may see more now that we have a stronger WR corps, but I expect to see a lot of short game still since our QB situation is the same... or at least it will be at the start of the season. Who knows what the entire season may bring.
    The dink/dunk will always be here, at least as long as we run the Walsh variant of the WCO and continue to look at the way the Pats have morphed the multi TE sets into that concept.

    A little something I did for another site.....

    How Important Is the Split End (X) Reciever in the WCO? – Vikings Authority

    It breaks down every game for the Vikes, Pats and PUKERS by how many times each team completed a pass deep or short.
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I completely disagree that Musgrave is making it hard on anyone. Musgrave deserves a helluva lot of credit for coming up with a passing gameplan that actually worked (somewhat) given the talent he had to work with at QB and WR.

    If we had a QB who was capable of getting the ball downfield fast enough to catch defenders out of position, or if we had a WR who was able to go up and get the ball in heavy traffic, we would have seen more downfield passes last season.

    We may see more now that we have a stronger WR corps, but I expect to see a lot of short game still since our QB situation is the same... or at least it will be at the start of the season. Who knows what the entire season may bring.

    I'm not sure what to make of Musgrave yet, but I'm starting to come to your opinion that he's gotten something out of not much. I pretty much always think that it goes both ways like the chicken and the egg. One would have to assume that not only the lack of talent at WR, but the type we did have in Harvin and the experience/talent level of the QB, obviously dictates what kind of routes/plays we're calling.

    And, now that we've added Patterson to replace Harvin's role, Jennings looks like one hell of an upgrade opposite him. IF Simpson is and can stay healthy, we might have 2 upgrades and a bit of a sidestep, specially if Patterson's size and attitude are a better match, and partially make up for his inexperience.

    The OL could very well improve in their second year on the field together and the continutiy has got to help a QB's confidence...In Ponder's first year he took 30 sacks in 10 starts, in 2012 he took 32 sacks in 17 starts. That is a big improvement and we've got some young guys who could be even better. Maybe, Peterson's lofty rushing yardage goals aren't so far-fetched!???

    Last but far from least, our questionable QB is still very young. He did improve his completion % by 8%, his QB rating by 11.1, and his TD/INT ratio by 50% from his first year to his 2nd. IF the OL and WRs are better, he won't have any excuses to improve more, and one way or the other, we'll know what we have. I think there's a real good chance that he is better, and that we'll surprise more teams this year than last, and maybe even make some playoff noise.

    Personally, I love that they've made us the under dog in ten games to start the season! Cuz the Vikings are coming to town, and we're going to punch you right in the mouth on the first play and every one that follows and we'll see who's still standing afterward!!
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

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