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  1. #141
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    For some reason our good friend Singersp struggles with that little fact about the offense we run.

    He absolutely hates plays from the LOS to the 15 yard line. All he wants to see is deep bombs and quick scoring.

    Like a good beer, a drive using the Walsh dink dunk attack is something to be enjoyed slowly, not just guzzled like a old nasty Beast.
    Again for the gazillionth time, I do not want to see them throw deep passes all day long. That's a bunch of BS you pulled out of your ass, & no matter how many times I tell you that, you just can't grasp it.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    LOL, when I'm in a guzzling, gonna drink alot of beer, I opt for the beast or the silver bullet. When I out for a steak dinner, something on tap that is like German Wheat, Scottish ale or a Marzen. If I'm doing Mexican, I like the usual stuff they have on tap, Tecate', Dos Equis.
    stay thirsy my friend.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    This guy breaks it down rather nicely.....

    he Vikings, sitting at 6-6, needed to win out for a chance at the playoffs. Ponder stepped up to the challenge. He completed 60.6 percent of his passes for 630 yards and four touchdowns to just one interception. He had help from Peterson of course, but Peterson proved during Ponder's rough stretch he couldn't do it alone. The final two games are especially impressive. In Week 16 against Houston, Peterson struggled compared to his usual self, managing just 86 yards on his 25 carries. Ponder picked up the slack, taking over with an inspiring performance against one of the AFC's best teams. Then in Week 17, in a do-or-die matchup against the rival Green Bay Packers, Ponder played his best game ever. And he needed to, as it became a shootout. He hit on many clutch third-down conversions, including a 3rd-and-11 on the final game-winning drive.
    Minnesota Vikings 2013: Why Do People Seem to Hate Christian Ponder? | Bleacher Report

    Granted , it isn't like he threw up 350 yards in those games, but what he did do was make plays when he needed to and didn't make mistakes.

    Its almost as if he was a 2nd year QB, on a predominantly run orientated offense that was asked to do his role, nothing more, nothing less.
    Again, another Bleacher Report article that you seem to hate if you don't like it, but refer to frequently when they fit your agenda.

    The "completed 60.6 percent of his passes for 630 yards and four touchdowns to just one interception" in the last 4 games looks somewhat good when put like that until you look at it realistcally.

    Like I said, the last game was his saving grace, not his last 4. 234 of those yards & 3 of those 4 TD's all came in that last game.

    In the 3 games prior to that, his total yards was 396 (132/game average) & he threw only 1 TD total over that 3 game span & had 1 INT. All this while averaging a mere 5.5 yards per pass & 15 completions per game avg.

    In those same 3 games AD had 452 yards, 3 TD's & averaged 5.7 yards/carry
    Last edited by singersp; 05-10-2013 at 02:43 PM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  4. #144
    Reignman is offline Asst. Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Reignman View Post
    What if we lost AD for the season?
    The offensive focus would shift back to what it was the first 8 weeks of last season. Lets not forget that Ponder had 6 games with over 200+ passing and one that was 2 yards shy during that timeframe and almost everyone was getting on the Ponder bandwagon.

    Or did you forget about that?
    Ha, I didn't forget anything, I just interpret it differently. AD was still on the field during that time frame and was playing well, we just had him on a touch limit. Defenses still had to account for him. While we eased AD back into things, Ponder relied heavily on Harvin. Did you forget Harvin was in the early running for MVP before he went down? WR's are rarely in any MVP talk and it didn't have much to do with who was throwing him the ball. And conveniently for Ponder, Harvin went down just as defenses were catching on to our 1 dimensional short game and just as AD was hitting his stride. Arguably Harvin got injured because of our 1 dimensional short game. He took a pounding early and often gaining all those yac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    But to the 1998 offense. Yes, the offense was not the cause but in order for Denny Green to get that offense it took him dismantling the best defense in the league that he inherited when he was hired as a coach. He sacrificed the defense in order to build the offense and then when the offense stalled in the NFCCG they were dead in the water. Had the defense been able to get a turnover in the second half or put the offense in better field position we could have won that game too.
    I don't think our defense was that bad in '98. I think some of you have the '98 Vikings confused with the '00 Rams "the greatest show on turf" who gave up 30 points a game. No, only 8 teams gave up fewer points than us in '98 despite how fast we were scoring. We were ranked 11th in run defense, 19th in pass defense, and 13th in overall defense. We had the 6th most takeaways and ranked 19th in sacks. Not too shabby for being on the field a lot.

    And I don't think the offense or defense played all that bad in the '98 NFCCG, we just got too conservative, or too careful if you will, especially in OT. Remember the kneel down just before half? The Cunningham fumble just before that that led to a quick Atlanta TD got them scared. I do blame the defense more for the loss though because Griffith dropped 2 potential INT's on the Falcons final game tying drive after the Anderson miss, but for whatever reason Anderson became the scapegoat.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    That is how it should be in our offense. Check Joe Montana's games and you'll find Jerry Rice caught a 10 yard quick slant that went for 60, 70, 80 yards. That's what is suppose to happen when you stretch the field horizontally. If you have a lot of YAC your QB is doing his job, he has to put the ball on the money so the WR can catch the ball in stride and make the YAC.
    Are you trying to compare Ponder to Montana lol? Ok I'll bite, the difference is Montana could read a defense, was on time with his passes, hit his receivers in stride, AND could hit the deep ball when needed. And how many comebacks did Montana engineer with his arm? Harvin got most of his yac because he made guys miss and carried would be tacklers for extra yards, not because Ponder was hitting him in stride. Ponder was good at one thing, throwing bubble screens.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    If Peterson goes down....playoffs are out the question....I aim to be like the Falcons...not because they pass deep but because they can run or pass on you. They can take what you give them. Right now we HAVE to run no matter what!!!!!
    Bingo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    I'm putting together a thing for the other site (I'll provide the link cause its to big for this site) that breaks down our WR's and if they fit our scheme.
    And I'll be sure to check it for fat finger errors xD haha j/k.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    For some reason our good friend Singersp struggles with that little fact about the offense we run.

    He absolutely hates plays from the LOS to the 15 yard line. All he wants to see is deep bombs and quick scoring.

    Like a good beer, a drive using the Walsh dink dunk attack is something to be enjoyed slowly, not just guzzled like a old nasty Beast.
    I think we want to see a healthier balance of short, middle, and even deep passes. Our offense is run heavy, and we throw a lot of short passes in large part because Ponder isn't very good. Yeah part of the equation is having a back like AD, but we weren't very run heavy when "the noodle" was here chucking the ball all over the yard. Because he could make all the throws. Ask yourself if we had a Brady or Rodgers right now, do you think we'd still be a dink-n-dunk and run heavy team? I doubt it. When you have a QB that's not very good past 10 yards you have to run more plays in the 0-10 yard range.

  5. #145
    Reignman is offline Asst. Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    The dink/dunk will always be here, at least as long as we run the Walsh variant of the WCO and continue to look at the way the Pats have morphed the multi TE sets into that concept.

    A little something I did for another site.....

    How Important Is the Split End (X) Reciever in the WCO? Vikings Authority

    It breaks down every game for the Vikes, Pats and PUKERS by how many times each team completed a pass deep or short.
    I had to throw together my own little chart of deep passes to get a better look at how Ponder compares to the rest of the league. I wanted to know more than just completions to paint a better picture, and here's what I've discovered ... Ponder is pretty horrible at throwing deep, but that only confirms what many have already known.

    As you can see Ponder ranks 33rd out of 33 QB's that have attempted at least 40 deep passes in 2012, and it's not even close. He's abysmal in every category. Although he does have more attempts than I would have guessed.



    All data is from the nfl.com play by play game logs and only includes passes described as "deep" (ball travels a minimum of 15 yards down field through the air). You used espn.com, but I believe they both define "deep" the same way.

  6. #146
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reignman View Post
    I had to throw together my own little chart of deep passes to get a better look at how Ponder compares to the rest of the league. I wanted to know more than just completions to paint a better picture, and here's what I've discovered ... Ponder is pretty horrible at throwing deep, but that only confirms what many have already known.

    As you can see Ponder ranks 33rd out of 33 QB's that have attempted at least 40 deep passes in 2012, and it's not even close. He's abysmal in every category. Although he does have more attempts than I would have guessed.

    This is statistical evidence of what we have seen in play. I was trying to remain positive about Ponder until I saw his complete lack of ability to consistently hit receivers on the move past 15 yards. He was not just bad, he was awful. Being the 33rd ranked QB in a 32 team league says a lot.

    The 15-20 yard pass is a "make or break" pass for a quarterback with a good arm. Having a good arm means making deep throws that are on target. Those passes open the box. The uber bomb looks good, but is not a good choice for coordinators who play high percentages.
    Last edited by Minniman; 05-10-2013 at 06:13 PM.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    The 98 offense was a good offense. I've never said there was anything wrong with it. Only issue with it I have now is that almost everyone still pines for that offense and tries to compare what we did then to what we do now.

    Until people come to grips that the 98 variant we ran was a more verticle (Air Coryell) version than what we run now (Walsh Dink/Dunk) there will always be comparisons. Right or wrong.

    By the way, if you remember, when Denny (A Walsh Pupil) took over he started out with the Dink/Dunk (With CC working as his Jerry Rice workhorse) and worked his way into the Air Coryell as the offense matured and he landed the freak called Randy. With Randy, Carter, and Reed, He had a true WCO WR corps that could exploit the field the way Walsh envisioned.
    If you remember that time what he actually did was blend the system he learned working for Walsh with the Gibbs offense that was run in Washington that relied more heavily on the TE and even with 2 TE sets. They pretty much ran that system from day 1 through guys like Gannon, Salisbury,Moon and Johnson.

    The addition of Moss was what led to the vertical attack and for good reason but that was still more of a Walsh offense and not a Coryell offense in that the fundamentals still had them passing to set up the run and not running to set up the pass. What was more Coryell-like (actually closer to what Dallas and Washington were doing) was that they changed the read progression so that rather than reading the short routes first and then going to the mid and deep routes, Moss allowed them to look deep first and then check down to the intermediate and short routes.



    In the end as always what you run is a product of the talent you have on the field and with Ponder on the field this is not going to be a quick strike chuck it deep offense. If we are lucky and if he can improve his timing and accuracy he might be able to be a really good Walsh type player and our offense can look like it did in the mid 90's and that is not necessarily a bad thing. If he craps out we have a young nucleus that will have enough talent to allow us to bring in a new guy and get him up to speed in a short amount of time. Hopefully while the team is throwing their support behind him, they are also looking for any players they can get who would upgrade the position.

  8. #148
    MossMems is offline Rookie
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    This Marrdro guy cracks me up. He must have loved our other game manager, Tjoke. The fact is, Ponder should see single coverage all day longer with 9+ in the box on every down to stop AD. But Mr happy feet panics if his first read isn't open. That's the problem with our 3rd year QB. Well one of many. Hopefully Spielmans's hand picked boy is gone if he doesn't show improvement with the new weapons he has.

  9. #149
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    This is statistical evidence of what we have seen in play. I was trying to remain positive about Ponder until I saw his complete lack of ability to consistently hit receivers on the move past 15 yards. He was not just bad, he was awful. Being the 33rd ranked QB in a 32 team league says a lot.

    The 15-20 yard pass is a "make or break" pass for a quarterback with a good arm. Having a good arm means making deep throws that are on target. Those passes open the box. The uber bomb looks good, but is not a good choice for coordinators who play high percentages.
    Good stuff

    The other key thing I like in that chart, which Marrdro seemed to leave out in his "Ponder is similar to Brady" analysis is the TD. The 1 TD he did have in 72 attempts (1.4%) doesn't even come close to Brady's 11 TD's in 118 attempts (9.3%).

    I may be wrong, but it looks like Brady is ranked 15th & Ponder 33rd. That doesn't scream close or similar to me.

    The other thing that really stands out to me is the QB rating. Ponder is at 39.6 which is a huge margin away from the next worse QB in the league (Weeden) who has a 61.2 rating.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossMems View Post
    This Marrdro guy cracks me up. He must have loved our other game manager, Tjoke. The fact is, Ponder should see single coverage all day longer with 9+ in the box on every down to stop AD. But Mr happy feet panics if his first read isn't open. That's the problem with our 3rd year QB. Well one of many. Hopefully Spielmans's hand picked boy is gone if he doesn't show improvement with the new weapons he has.
    How did you know?

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