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  1. #11
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital420 View Post

    PH/Rudy are his top weapons.. with teams focusing on them and AP.. why are the other WR's not getting wide wide open? ponder has spread the ball around, we've seen 3 other wr's catch passes, important passes. seen even our top targets drop balls....

    DiGiTaL
    Without shots of the entire field showing all receivers, where there at & how much separation they have, we can't say for sure they're not open. Is he not seeing them, not making his reads & locking down main;y on his primary targets only or are they truly not open? Is he hesitant to throw to a receiver with minimal separation?

    I think play calling is a factor in it. With Ponder throwing an average of a little over of 5 yards per throw in the air & play calling catering to that & not sending WR's deeper on plays, you end up with 20 to 22 guys occupying a 10 to 15 yard piece of the field without a lot of extra open space for receivers to get open.

    Our 1 deep threat receiver isn't showing much of his deep threat abilities. The majority of the time he's sent deep, he's blanketed by a defender, not getting much if any separation & the majority of the yards we are getting from him are off PI calls.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Take your pick. I don't believe there's one derogatory or ridiculing comment towards Ponder in the last game thread. Most were very "polite" with their comments. He had a bad game. He'll get better. He's still young. It's only his 2nd year.

    You won't find too many polite comments like that in the 2007 threads. He was ridiculed & lambasted week in & week out by the majority, not the minority of the posters. You won't find too many comments that AD, Harvin, Walsh, ST or the defense carried Ponder in any of this years game threads. It didn't matter then that it was only his 2nd year, Childress named him the starter & that meant he had to lead the team.

    I've always been a proponent of giving a QB a couple of years worth of consecutive starts as the starter & I don't mean a handful of consecutive starts sprinkled here & there over a course of several years either.

    I'm glad they're sticking with Ponder. The Childress Administration would have had him on & off the bench last year & probably riding the pine this week. It doesn't do a young QB any good to knee-jerk him back & fourth.

    While it might be true that you may be able to judge a QB fairly in less than 2 years, especially if he turns out to be a basket case, I don't think it can be done fairly after 6 starts & certainly not after 3 starts, but we have seen it here.
    If you are talking about Webb, then that conversation is well past. At some point a player must be able to at least be in consideration for the starting job. Webb is not, despite being a favorite of some.

    And there were several complaints and ridicule about Ponder last year all the way through the first couple of game this year. Then something happened that didn't happen with TJack - we started winning. We are 5-2 right now, and the people who are just waiting for Ponder to screw up (you know who you are) simply don't have the ammunition to bitch and moan. Believe me, if we start losing, they will be out in force, and to be fair, I think you will be one of them.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #13
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    Elite and very good QB's aren't taking long to figure things out these days so he'll probably never be that. I'm just hoping Ponder can be good and consistent. He's certainly better than any realistic replacement opportunities that will be out there any time soon.

    ESPN Stats & Info ‏@ESPNStatsInfo

    Christian Ponder's average pass has traveled 5.4 yards downfield this season, 1.8 yards shorter than the next lowest QB.
    Skol Vikings! Go Cubs!

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  4. #14
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    He just plain looks awful.I don't care how many starts you have, if you can't recognize there is a guy in front of you with the same jersey, throw them the ball, don't try to throw it to the guy with the other jersey.

  5. #15
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    If you are talking about Webb, then that conversation is well past. At some point a player must be able to at least be in consideration for the starting job. Webb is not, despite being a favorite of some.

    And there were several complaints and ridicule about Ponder last year all the way through the first couple of game this year. Then something happened that didn't happen with TJack - we started winning. We are 5-2 right now, and the people who are just waiting for Ponder to screw up (you know who you are) simply don't have the ammunition to bitch and moan. Believe me, if we start losing, they will be out in force, and to be fair, I think you will be one of them.
    Just to refresh you're memory, we were winning with Jackson in his second year. In fact, he was 8-2 in his first 10 starts that year, so to say it didn't happen with Jackson, is a false statement.

    Trust me, there is enough ammunition for people to bitch & moan about and they may come out, but don't confuse legitimate concerns with bitching & moaning. I expect there will be a fair share of Ponder apologists as well.

    No matter how many upcoming losses we will have, my stance will still be to keep Ponder in there the rest of the season to see how he pans out & take it from there afterwards. It would be fool-hardy to knee-jerk & bench him mid-season & play the QB carousel game again for the next 3 years before making a decision. We've been there, done that & it only drags things out.

    I still believe Spielman, Frazier & Musgrave need to do something to get Ponder into a better position to succeed, which will help build confidence. There's got to be some happy medium between the 5 yard dumps & deep sideline passes & a better mixture of the 3. Doing the same thing over & over again expecting better results isn't working.

    They need to get the TE's involved more, especially K-Rud. I don't know if there's any WR worth a shit unemployed at the moment, but perhaps there's someone that's an improvement over what we have. Perhaps give Jarius Wright a shot. I'm sure they miss having a great blocking TE like Jimmy K. to help protect Ponder & they need a coach who can actually teach AD to pick up blitzes & pass block better.
    Last edited by singersp; 10-26-2012 at 07:51 PM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reignman View Post
    Some of those guys (Favre, Peyton Manning) were from different era's, so those aren't fair comparisons. Rodgers didn't start until his 4th year in the league, so again I don't think that's a fair comparison. Ponder will never be in the same category as any of those QB's. Those are all gun slingers and Ponder doesn't have the arm strength.

    I could see him being a Gannon type player though, smart, mobile, accurate. The only problem with that is it took Gannon 12 years and 4 teams before he became a Gannon type player lol. I don't think we have the patience for that around here.

    Get him some better WR's and things could change quickly. All those other guys had some pretty good targets to throw to most of their careers.
    I agree. Get the kid some weapons and fix the O line and I think the kid can be very good. No time and no one to throw to is a bad combination for for any QB.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Just to refresh you're memory, we were winning with Jackson in his second year. In fact, he was 8-2 in his first 10 starts that year, so to say it didn't happen with Jackson, is a false statement.

    Trust me, there is enough ammunition for people to bitch & moan about and they may come out, but don't confuse legitimate concerns with bitching & moaning. I expect there will be a fair share of Ponder apologists as well.

    No matter how many upcoming losses we will have, my stance will still be to keep Ponder in there the rest of the season to see how he pans out & take it from there afterwards. It would be fool-hardy to knee-jerk & bench him mid-season & play the QB carousel game again for the next 3 years before making a decision. We've been there, done that & it only drags things out.

    I still believe Spielman, Frazier & Musgrave need to do something to get Ponder into a better position to succeed, which will help build confidence. There's got to be some happy medium between the 5 yard dumps & deep sideline passes & a better mixture of the 3. Doing the same thing over & over again expecting better results isn't working.

    They need to get the TE's involved more, especially K-Rud. I don't know if there's any WR worth a shit unemployed at the moment, but perhaps there's someone that's an improvement over what we have. Perhaps give Jarius Wright a shot. I'm sure they miss having a great blocking TE like Jimmy K. to help protect Ponder & they need a coach who can actually teach AD to pick up blitzes & pass block better.
    nice post man. about as spot on as it could get. the work on Ponder will have to continue, and i'm sure it will. rustymusty needs to have his plays to include a much larger range of targets, or ponder needs to to learn to see the field better, see the open men, read the D? either way it's development. knee jerking him is not the way. webb won't be able to carry the team, though i'm not sure why they don't use him, MBT, well best thing for him would be to learn, learn, learn.. maybe get some garbage time next year to see how he reacts in game time situations.

    the quote about slickrick and crew to build the team with more talent in specific positions is coming, you can't build a team in 2 seasons, it takes 3-4 years. so we're far more advanced then we should be, it is still going to take time. Ponder and the caoching staff needs time, does that give them all a refrain from critisism of fans, anal-ytests.. no, we can bitch. moan. scream. and yell for their nutz on a chopping board.. but in the end, we will chear the success, boo the failures.. and write on PPO about the ups n downs..

    time will tell abou Ponder, RustyMusty, even Frazier.. So far, they've done a decent job, but like the rest of the team. need to improve to become an elite team.

    DiGiTaL

    "We tried to stick with it, but there was a point where we were beating our head against a wall," Seattle Coach Mora talking about running at the Williams Wall

  8. #18
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital420 View Post
    nice post man. about as spot on as it could get. the work on Ponder will have to continue, and i'm sure it will. rustymusty needs to have his plays to include a much larger range of targets, or ponder needs to to learn to see the field better, see the open men, read the D? either way it's development. knee jerking him is not the way. webb won't be able to carry the team, though i'm not sure why they don't use him, MBT, well best thing for him would be to learn, learn, learn.. maybe get some garbage time next year to see how he reacts in game time situations.

    the quote about slickrick and crew to build the team with more talent in specific positions is coming, you can't build a team in 2 seasons, it takes 3-4 years. so we're far more advanced then we should be, it is still going to take time. Ponder and the caoching staff needs time, does that give them all a refrain from critisism of fans, anal-ytests.. no, we can bitch. moan. scream. and yell for their nutz on a chopping board.. but in the end, we will chear the success, boo the failures.. and write on PPO about the ups n downs..

    time will tell abou Ponder, RustyMusty, even Frazier.. So far, they've done a decent job, but like the rest of the team. need to improve to become an elite team.

    DiGiTaL
    I'm aware that you can't build a team in a couple of seasons thru the draft. That's why there's free agency. If you want your QB to succeed you have to put the pieces around him to be able to succeed. IMO, those needs, be it the draft or FA need to be addressed 1st. We got the OL help with the Kalil pick, but screwed the pooch when it came to getting immediate help at the WR position with a deep threat WR. There was an immediate need there & since they weren't going to address that need by taking a starter early in the draft that could fill that role, the need was to address it in FA & target one in the draft next year.

    It was obvious to most here that Jenkins, Aromashodu or Arceneaux weren't capable of being "that guy" nor were they great at getting open on the short passes. Spielman elected to keep those guys anyway and sat idly by while the cream of the crop were taken. Finally, about 6 weeks into FA, they took a gamble on a WR with issues on & off the field. Taking a gamble on Simpson as well as Jenkins & Aromashodu is taking a gamble on Ponder's success as well.

    A more sure thing at WR to complement AD & Harvin, would have definitely improved Ponders chances.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I'm aware that you can't build a team in a couple of seasons thru the draft. That's why there's free agency. If you want your QB to succeed you have to put the pieces around him to be able to succeed. IMO, those needs, be it the draft or FA need to be addressed 1st. We got the OL help with the Kalil pick, but screwed the pooch when it came to getting immediate help at the WR position with a deep threat WR. There was an immediate need there & since they weren't going to address that need by taking a starter early in the draft that could fill that role, the need was to address it in FA & target one in the draft next year.

    It was obvious to most here that Jenkins, Aromashodu or Arceneaux weren't capable of being "that guy" nor were they great at getting open on the short passes. Spielman elected to keep those guys anyway and sat idly by while the cream of the crop were taken. Finally, about 6 weeks into FA, they took a gamble on a WR with issues on & off the field. Taking a gamble on Simpson as well as Jenkins & Aromashodu is taking a gamble on Ponder's success as well.

    A more sure thing at WR to complement AD & Harvin, would have definitely improved Ponders chances.
    To be fair they drafted the dynamic Duo in the draft and it is hard to know how different things might be if Batman (Childs) didn't blow out his kneecaps in training camp and Robin didn't end up a total bust without him.

    That aside I am not convinced jerry Rice in his prime would fix the problems ponder is having. He is apparently a smart guy but he is not showing it on the field. He is not recognizing coverages, he is not exploiting the stacked fronts and he is making very bad mental errors with where he is putting or trying to put the ball under pressure.

    I will concede that much of it can be directed back at the coaches not preparing the team and having them know what to do against certain looks, but it is appearing that Ponder may not have it in him even in that case.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    To be fair they drafted the dynamic Duo in the draft and it is hard to know how different things might be if Batman (Childs) didn't blow out his kneecaps in training camp and Robin didn't end up a total bust without him.
    I know they took a couple in the draft. They didn't draft Childs until their 6th pick though, which was in the 4th round, and he was a big drop off from the cream of the crop WR's much further up the chain. He was the 21st WR taken in the draft. He had the height, not sure of the speed, but the big knock on him was his inconsistency & that he was "gun shy" running routes in 2011 because of his 2010 torn Patella injury. Makes you wonder how afraid to run routes he's going to be next year after this years injuries.

    Wright was drafted 2 picks earlier, but at 5'10" wasn't going to be the deep threat, go up & get the ball type WR we needed. If height didn't matter, we'd be sending Harvin deep.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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