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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Moss View Post
    Thoughts one the game:

    The starting defense looked good until the 49ers started to abuse Josh Robinson. Watch their scoring drive again. Every single pass was to Josh Robinson's guy. He's looking like he could be a huge liability in coverage this year. Both Cook and Rhodes looked solid, but it today's NFL, you need three solid corners. We're going to miss Winfield. Also, Sanford needs to catch the ball.

    What is wrong with Kalil? 3rd and inches and he let his guy blow right through him. Later we finally get a drive going and have 40 yards in penalties, 30 on Kalil. Ugly.

    Ponder was okay, I guess, but could have been a lot better.

    Cassel was/is awful. Are people still going to be clamoring for him now?

    Burton has looked good this preseason, but what the heck was he doing on the pick? That was 100% on him. He'll make the team again, but he needs to do something this year and he can't make mistakes like that and needs to be better than he was last season.

    Desmond Bishop made a few decent plays. He'll be our starter week 1.

    Honestly, this game wasn't as bad as the score makes it look. A few miscues here and there had a huge effect on the outcome. (Sanford dropped int - 7pts, Kalil crapping pants - at least 3 points, kick return TD - 7pts, Burton causing a pick, etc.)
    Against a team like SF, if we make that many mistakes we will lose 100% of the time. If we can eliminate these errors, we will be in a lot of games, if not, we may be picking the top 10 next year.
    Robinson did have a bad night and was targeted over and over again. For a guy with all his speed, he always seemed a step behind. He also struggled in making tackles. Maybe the hardest he's been worked (or worked over) since he came into the NFL, so maybe that helps him. Either way he will be getting a lot of playing time, especially if Cook keeps up his track record of missing games. As of right now, Robinson is the starting corner in our base defense. Rhodes comes in on nickle defense and Robinson slides inside.

    I thought Bishop looked good. He needs to be on the field. The biggest concern was his speed coming off the injury, but I thought he was moving well. He knows what he's doing out there. The combination of Greenway, Bishop and Henderson could actually be a solid group for us.

    The DL underwhelmed me, but this is one area that doesn't get me too excited in pre-season one way or the other. It's more about physical play (effort) than technique and we know what we have here, providing injuries don't become a problem.

  2. #32
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    Saw the game from start to end. Left with a disgusting feeling in my stomach. Is this really how the Vikings will play in the regular season?

    The starters were in the game for a long period, but so many things looked bad. The quarterbacks looked awful. Kaepernick is awesome and the 49'ers are lucky to have him, wish the Vikings had him. Imagine Kaepernick and Adrian Peterson work the option-read together. Vikings should utilize Joe Webb in this way, it's obviously effective (see last playoff game against Packers).

    I was not very impressed by the defense, but I saw some nice plays and I liked the goal-line stand by the backups at the end of the game. Minnesota has had one of the best goal-line defenses in the league for many years if you ask me. That reminds me, I'm getting more impressed by Bishop and Mauti. The linebackers were our weakest link by many people's opinion, but it's not. We even have good depth.

    The secondary can be good if some players (*cough* Chris Cook) stays healthy. Jamarca Sanford keeps looking better and Mistral Raymond provides nice depth.

    There's Still Hope!

    I know last night's game looked terrible, but Vikings can still win games and the recipe is simple: feed the ball to Adrian! The offense is build to run... and alot! We have no good quarterbacks. The offensive line is build to run block, passing blocking: not so much. We even have good run blocking receivers. Teams knew we were going to rely on the run game, but still couldn't stop us. Let's just continue from where we finished last year.

    AD2,5K!!!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    No buts, Cassell just looked bad. I thought when we signed him that he would be a guy that could step in for Ponder and give us respectable play at the position. However, his play seems to get a little worse each time I see him. I don't really care who they put behind center, I doubt we will see much of a difference. Chances are we will see them both, so we can continue to debate throughout the season which turd we prefer.

    Maybe a more systematic problem than just the QB. Unless of course you put a guy like Favre/Peyton/Brady in who pretty much takes over and completely change the identity of our team.

    Frazier summed it up pretty well when being interviewed. We are not going to change who we are...a running team that runs their offense through Peterson. If we have a 3rd and long situation, then we expect the QB to make that play (yea right). We will not be a team that features the passing game. I think this is the hardest point for a lot of fans. If your a team that focuses on a physical style of offense featuring the running game, don't expect a lot of success in passing. Maybe counter intuitive, but I think it has proven itself over and over again. Same thing in reverse, if you focus on having a top passing offense, you will probably struggle in the running game.

    It is pre-season and very few teams come out looking real sharp, but for those expecting a much different team this year from last, I think you will be sorely disappointed. The approach this team is taking is very clear. They are focused on physical play, ball control offense, special teams and limiting mistakes. None of which by the way is highlighted much in pre-season. Last year, we won every game where we won the turnover battle. Not real exciting in today's fantasy driven NFL, but that appears to be the identity they are going after. If the team fails to be competitive this year, then Frazier's job will be in jeopardy and changes could be coming, until then, I think this is who we are.
    Your explination is a bunch of crock. Personally I love your post but that is BS. I can name plenty of teams that featured a brusing offense but also had a passing game. A good example was the 2nd Pats championship. Corey Dillon soften them up as a feature back and brady picked up the rest. Its also what you are going to see from Atlanta this season. Punsishing running game but can air it out. Saints had it with Deuce getting 25+ carries and the passing game picking you apart. You can have a focus the running game all day.... I don't care. I care that if our QB is asked to throw 13 times a game that he complete 10 of the 13 throws. I ask that he doesn't look lost out there any time he is asked to pass. Every time he drops back you expect a sack or an errant throw. that has nothing to do with running the ball. You can draft and build a good QB to pair with our running attack. I don't care if he throws for 150 yards a game. I ask that he looks like a PRO QB doing it.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Your explination is a bunch of crock. Personally I love your post but that is BS. I can name plenty of teams that featured a brusing offense but also had a passing game. A good example was the 2nd Pats championship. Corey Dillon soften them up as a feature back and brady picked up the rest. Its also what you are going to see from Atlanta this season. Punsishing running game but can air it out. Saints had it with Deuce getting 25+ carries and the passing game picking you apart. You can have a focus the running game all day.... I don't care. I care that if our QB is asked to throw 13 times a game that he complete 10 of the 13 throws. I ask that he doesn't look lost out there any time he is asked to pass. Every time he drops back you expect a sack or an errant throw. that has nothing to do with running the ball. You can draft and build a good QB to pair with our running attack. I don't care if he throws for 150 yards a game. I ask that he looks like a PRO QB doing it.
    That is what they are asking of him and he hasn't performed to date. If he continues, then he will no doubt be replaced.

    I'm just saying don't expect to see the Vikings feature the passing game anytime soon or you will continue to get overly frustrated.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Frazier summed it up pretty well when being interviewed. We are not going to change who we are...a running team that runs their offense through Peterson. If we have a 3rd and long situation, then we expect the QB to make that play (yea right). We will not be a team that features the passing game.
    The two greatest running backs of the modern era are Eric Dickerson and Barry Sanders. Neither has a Super Bowl ring. Teams need a balanced threat on offense.

    I think this is the hardest point for a lot of fans. If your a team that focuses on a physical style of offense featuring the running game, don't expect a lot of success in passing. Maybe counter intuitive, but I think it has proven itself over and over again. Same thing in reverse, if you focus on having a top passing offense, you will probably struggle in the running game.
    That is faulty logic. The greatness of one area of offense does not diminish the other. The Greatest Show on Turf and the Cowboys dynasty both had the ability to run and pass.

    Stats like Adrian Peterson had last season would likely not have been earned if the Vikings had a better passing game, but stats and ability are not one and the same. The ability to rush 2000 yards is not the same as actually rushing 2000 yards because the team cannot pass. Peterson had the ability to rush 2000 yards when Favre was here, but AP did not need to do so.

    I do not believe people understand how poorly Ponder played last season. He was at a record pace for futility in passing over 15 yards. He was ranked 33 in a 32 team league for passing over 15 yards, with a QB rating far worse than any starting QB at that range, and he is getting close to the record for passes with no TD over 20 yards. He has trouble making reads, going through progressions, getting the ball out, leading receivers, and hitting the numbers on target. What more could we not ask for?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    The two greatest running backs of the modern era are Eric Dickerson and Barry Sanders. Neither has a Super Bowl ring. Teams need a balanced threat on offense.


    That is faulty logic. The greatness of one area of offense does not diminish the other. The Greatest Show on Turf and the Cowboys dynasty both had the ability to run and pass.

    Stats like Adrian Peterson had last season would likely not have been earned if the Vikings had a better passing game, but stats and ability are not one and the same. The ability to rush 2000 yards is not the same as actually rushing 2000 yards because the team cannot pass. Peterson had the ability to rush 2000 yards when Favre was here, but AP did not need to do so.

    I do not believe people understand how poorly Ponder played last season. He was at a record pace for futility in passing over 15 yards. He was ranked 33 in a 32 team league for passing over 15 yards, with a QB rating far worse than any starting QB at that range, and he is getting close to the record for passes with no TD over 20 yards. He has trouble making reads, going through progressions, getting the ball out, leading receivers, and hitting the numbers on target. What more could we not ask for?
    No argument on Ponder and his performance last year. However, even with this poor performance, we were able to make the playoffs by over emphasizing on the running game and physical play. Our worst passing year on record (ypa) was countered by our best rushing year on record (ypc), ok didn't look those up, but has to be close at least in the modern era.

    Do you remember the worst season Peterson had in terms of yards per carry (4.4)? It was when Favre was lighting up the league in his last hurrah. We got better at passing, but worse at rushing. We were a better team, but I think you can put most of that on Favre. An elite QB trumps an elite RB, we would all like to have both.

    That is all I'm saying. Yes you can be good or above average at both, but very hard to be elite at both. If you can be elite at just one aspect, then there is a good argument that you can have success. Another argument can be made that in a league that is focused on shutting down high flying passing offenses, a physical run oriented team can have it's advantages on lighter faster defenses.

  7. #37
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    Ponder and his style end up being his and our own worst enemy. What I mean by that is we have a terrific running game that causes the defense to crowd the line of scrimmage and the best way for us to take advantage of that is with a QB that can hit the deep pass and capitalize on the compact nature of the defense. It can also be done by hitting the mid depth sideline routes too but in the end it requires Ponder to make the throws he is not good at and the ones that he is good at ( close to the LOS, behind the LOS etc are tough to make because the defense is already occupying those areas so it also plays right into their strength.

    I think Brett in his first year here displayed how to take the top off a defense with the mid to deep passes and that is really what is mandatory for us at the QB position. Maybe a guy that is like Big Ben, Rivers etc who have the arm strength to strike down the field. I have also said for a long time that with AP back there we would be better suited with the TD to checkdown progressions than with the LOS to deep progressions we see from this scheme.

    Then again WTF, I guess this way is somehow a KAO if it is executed properly.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    The two greatest running backs of the modern era are Eric Dickerson and Barry Sanders. Neither has a Super Bowl ring. Teams need a balanced threat on offense.
    What about Walter Payton?

    I think the Vikings can win games without a good passing game. We all saw how well it worked last season when Frazier finally said: "heck, let's just give it to AD" so why not continuing doing something that won games?

    In addition, there are almost no teams in the NFL that are "balanced". Even if you are extremely lucky to have an elite running back, quarterback, and receivers. The offensive-line needs to be great at both pass and run blocking which is very rare to find as they demand almost completely opposite skills.

    It also seems like offensive lines are either good pass blockers or good run blockers based on what plays the team runs. Minnesota had a great run-blocking line last year, but when Favre came to Minnesota our line suddenly looked much better pass blocking. I think this is influenced by the different mindsets of pass/run blocking and a simple thing called "practice makes perfect".

    I also think that Minnesota committing to the run can be smart move in today's NFL. Most teams can only consistently win through the air and defenses today are not build to stop the run as they were before. This is an advantage for the Vikings.

    By relying heavily on the run, one needs a good defense that can prevent the opponent from reaching the end-zone. Like the Bears with Walter Peyton and the feared defense. We did good in that department last year and can continue and even improve this year.
    Last edited by HEY; 08-26-2013 at 04:25 PM.

  9. #39
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Challenging to find the positives in this pre-season.
    Last night I saw a Vikings defense that could be pretty good. They should consider starting Rhodes and looking for a better nickel corner than Robinson. Bishop looked pretty good for the most part. I would start him.
    I did see defensive effort over all, so that was positive.

    The offense was consistently inept and didn't really get anything going until they were playing against third stringers.
    I saw a shot of Ponder before the game started and he had a look of fear on his face !
    Sadly, Ponder is already in mid season form! Cassel can read defenses better than Ponder, but is no better because he can't execute.
    The offense without Peterson is one of the worst in the NFL.

    I just have this feeling that Frazier feels AD can carry the team again this year. I never doubt Adrian, but I recall the Packers managed to contain him pretty well in the playoff game by not letting him run outside.

    This year's team has enough talent to be very good, but also has the appearance of a team that could enter a tailspin. Ponder will have to pull up his britches and get the job done, starting day one. So far there is little sign of improvement from him and the excuses are beginning to wear thin.
    Bust or NFL QB ? We shall soon find out.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Moss View Post
    Both Cook and Rhodes looked solid, but it today's NFL, you need three solid corners.
    I don't think Rhodes even played, did he? I thought he was hurt.

    If he did play, he didn't record a single tackle or assist.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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