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  1. #131
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1087414
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087410
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    Maybe he made the move because they have more productive receivers that can play instead of him. And the Pats didn't put a waiver claim in after we cut them, so that tells me they dumped him for more than just a draft pick.
    The Pats didn't make a claim for him because they didn't get the chance. The Titans were ahead of them in the claim process and picked them. That theory doesn't substantiate your point.
    Add in the question, "When do you ever have enough Receivers?"

    Look at what happened to us. Look at how depleted our receiver corps became...with just 1 or 2 significant injuries.

    And, as ejmat points out, New England never got the chance to claim him.

    That means that your opinion is colored by personal bias, not relevant facts or sustainable theory...

    ...time to reassess.

    Caine

  2. #132
    seaniemck7's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087418
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1087414
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087410
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    Maybe he made the move because they have more productive receivers that can play instead of him. And the Pats didn't put a waiver claim in after we cut them, so that tells me they dumped him for more than just a draft pick.
    The Pats didn't make a claim for him because they didn't get the chance. The Titans were ahead of them in the claim process and picked them. That theory doesn't substantiate your point.
    Add in the question, "When do you ever have enough Receivers?"

    Look at what happened to us. Look at how depleted our receiver corps became...with just 1 or 2 significant injuries.

    And, as ejmat points out, New England never got the chance to claim him.

    That means that your opinion is colored by personal bias, not relevant facts or sustainable theory...

    ...time to reassess.

    Caine
    More to the point is why would the Pats put a claim on him to have him in the same position as before which was no contract extension? They were not going to give him another contract. Their offensive passing philosophy has shifted from bombs down the field to a dink and dunk, run after the catch, hit open zones with their ultra-accurate QB. This philosophy aids their young defense because the offense trickles down the field now. They have long sustained drives protecting the defense from being on the field to long to make young mistakes.

    The Pat's decisions in this whole process is not an indictment on Moss' abilities IMHO.

  3. #133
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    But if BB just wanted the draft pick why did he wait until week 4 or whenever? Couldn't he have gotten the same pick or better earlier and not had the distraction?
    It is my opinion that something happened that got RM traded, similar to what happened here, except it stayed "in house". Also probably why he didn't see the field much in Tennessee.

  4. #134
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087425
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    But if BB just wanted the draft pick why did he wait until week 4 or whenever? Couldn't he have gotten the same pick or better earlier and not had the distraction?
    It is my opinion that something happened that got RM traded, similar to what happened here, except it stayed "in house". Also probably why he didn't see the field much in Tennessee.
    Personally, I can see this going either way. Randy is far from a saint, and his skills aren't SO great at this point that he can get away with a lot of shit. It's hard for me to defend a guy that plays when he wants to play. If that means that you have to have the perfect environment before this guy decides he wants to perform, then MN is not the place for him. We are not and were not a team that can foster that type of player.

    I'm disappointed that we lost a 3rd round pick to bring this guy in, but not so disappointed to see him go. I don't question his skill, I question his heart and his influence on fellow players. I also think Childress owned most of the responsibility on how the whole Randy thing played out.

    Frazier, just say no to Moss. You will have plenty of critics to dissect everything you are doing wrong, you don't need another one in the locker room.

  5. #135
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087435
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087425
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    But if BB just wanted the draft pick why did he wait until week 4 or whenever? Couldn't he have gotten the same pick or better earlier and not had the distraction?
    It is my opinion that something happened that got RM traded, similar to what happened here, except it stayed "in house". Also probably why he didn't see the field much in Tennessee.
    Personally, I can see this going either way. Randy is far from a saint, and his skills aren't SO great at this point that he can get away with a lot of shit. It's hard for me to defend a guy that plays when he wants to play. If that means that you have to have the perfect environment before this guy decides he wants to perform, then MN is not the place for him. We are not and were not a team that can foster that type of player.

    I'm disappointed that we lost a 3rd round pick to bring this guy in, but not so disappointed to see him go. I don't question his skill, I question his heart and his influence on fellow players. I also think Childress owned most of the responsibility on how the whole Randy thing played out.

    Frazier, just say no to Moss. You will have plenty of critics to dissect everything you are doing wrong, you don't need another one in the locker room.
    Gonna try and tackle two posts at once:

    Why would Bellichick wait until week 4? Probably looking to see who he could get to fill the hole. Remember, he signed Dieon Branch - a former Patriot star - almost immediately. So, follow the Bellichick logic:

    "I have an aging player (Moss) in the final year of his deal who wants a final big contract...I'm not going to giver it to him. I see that a former player at the same position (Branch) might be available. The former player pretty much knows the offense already, he's a solid player, and I can get him cheap. So, I can ride the season with BOTH guys, or - since we can already beat everyone in the NFL - I can parlay the aging guy (Moss) into a draft pick."

    Now, everything above is THEORY. I have no PROOF of any of it. But I do find it suspicious, to say the least, that Dieon Branch was signed almost IMMEDIATELY after Moss was traded. Branch had become redundant in Seattle, so Seattle moved him for a 4th rounder.

    So, in the end, Bellichick wound up with a receiver that fit his scheme better, and a better draft pick, Seattle wound up with a draft pick, and Minnesota got rid of an idiot coach.

    Finally, addressing the "Play when I want to play" issue...Randy has taken plays off. No one disputes that. But so has Berrian. So has Rice. So has Harvin....


    ..well...maybe not Harvin.

    Bottom line is Receivers don't go 100% on 100% of the plays. If a play is a quick hit to the opposite side, the Receiver might put in token effort KNOWING that the ball is going to the opposite side, and that he's effectively out of the play.

    Blaming Randy for "giving up on plays" is another accusation that most NFL receivers can be hit with. How many times have we seen our guys fail to get open and sort of float through the space their route ended...not even trying to make anything happen? I see that a lot.

    So, does Randy REALLY "quit"? No more so than anyone else. Not really.

    But what does Randy bring to the table?

    From all reports, he's the perfect team mate. He practices hard. He wants to win. He's not a prima-donna "I need the ball" receiver unless the team is losing...and then it's more of a "I'll take the game on MY shoulders" type of thing.

    Further, he demands coverage. Despite what Marrdro says, Moss extended the field for us....IMMEDIATELY. Without knowing Chiller's KAO. He forced Defenses to account for him. He created opportunities for our passing game. He also allowed our receivers to fall back into their more natural positions (Harvin in the slot, Berrian on the bench).

    And the ONLY times that Moss has EVER spoken out against his team is in toxic situations (In Oakland during it's decline, and here when Chiller was killing us).

    So I say "Bring in Moss". Give us a legitimate receiver corps for our next QB to work with. Give us time to find some O-line help, and get our team back on track.

    Moss can do that.

    Caine

  6. #136
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    I think the Moss press conference on September 12, where he infered he wasn't appreciated by ownership sealed his fate with New England.

    Moss went public which isn't well received by any team; but especially in New England.

    I think it was a case where the Vikings called and New England couldn't pass up the deal, since they weren't likely to sign Moss again anyway.

    I doubt Moss is as good as he once was, but to say he is washed up based upon his brief stay in Minnesota, with a coaching staff that didn't know how to use him, can only leave us wondering.

    We have a very thin receiver corps. Randy surely would be an upgrade.
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  7. #137
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087463
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087435
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087425
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    But if BB just wanted the draft pick why did he wait until week 4 or whenever? Couldn't he have gotten the same pick or better earlier and not had the distraction?
    It is my opinion that something happened that got RM traded, similar to what happened here, except it stayed "in house". Also probably why he didn't see the field much in Tennessee.
    Personally, I can see this going either way. Randy is far from a saint, and his skills aren't SO great at this point that he can get away with a lot of shit. It's hard for me to defend a guy that plays when he wants to play. If that means that you have to have the perfect environment before this guy decides he wants to perform, then MN is not the place for him. We are not and were not a team that can foster that type of player.

    I'm disappointed that we lost a 3rd round pick to bring this guy in, but not so disappointed to see him go. I don't question his skill, I question his heart and his influence on fellow players. I also think Childress owned most of the responsibility on how the whole Randy thing played out.

    Frazier, just say no to Moss. You will have plenty of critics to dissect everything you are doing wrong, you don't need another one in the locker room.
    Gonna try and tackle two posts at once:

    Why would Bellichick wait until week 4? Probably looking to see who he could get to fill the hole. Remember, he signed Dieon Branch - a former Patriot star - almost immediately. So, follow the Bellichick logic:

    "I have an aging player (Moss) in the final year of his deal who wants a final big contract...I'm not going to giver it to him. I see that a former player at the same position (Branch) might be available. The former player pretty much knows the offense already, he's a solid player, and I can get him cheap. So, I can ride the season with BOTH guys, or - since we can already beat everyone in the NFL - I can parlay the aging guy (Moss) into a draft pick."

    Now, everything above is THEORY. I have no PROOF of any of it. But I do find it suspicious, to say the least, that Dieon Branch was signed almost IMMEDIATELY after Moss was traded. Branch had become redundant in Seattle, so Seattle moved him for a 4th rounder.

    So, in the end, Bellichick wound up with a receiver that fit his scheme better, and a better draft pick, Seattle wound up with a draft pick, and Minnesota got rid of an idiot coach.

    Finally, addressing the "Play when I want to play" issue...Randy has taken plays off. No one disputes that. But so has Berrian. So has Rice. So has Harvin....


    ..well...maybe not Harvin.

    Bottom line is Receivers don't go 100% on 100% of the plays. If a play is a quick hit to the opposite side, the Receiver might put in token effort KNOWING that the ball is going to the opposite side, and that he's effectively out of the play.

    Blaming Randy for "giving up on plays" is another accusation that most NFL receivers can be hit with. How many times have we seen our guys fail to get open and sort of float through the space their route ended...not even trying to make anything happen? I see that a lot.

    So, does Randy REALLY "quit"? No more so than anyone else. Not really.

    But what does Randy bring to the table?

    From all reports, he's the perfect team mate. He practices hard. He wants to win. He's not a prima-donna "I need the ball" receiver unless the team is losing...and then it's more of a "I'll take the game on MY shoulders" type of thing.

    Further, he demands coverage. Despite what Marrdro says, Moss extended the field for us....IMMEDIATELY. Without knowing Chiller's KAO. He forced Defenses to account for him. He created opportunities for our passing game. He also allowed our receivers to fall back into their more natural positions (Harvin in the slot, Berrian on the bench).

    And the ONLY times that Moss has EVER spoken out against his team is in toxic situations (In Oakland during it's decline, and here when Chiller was killing us).

    So I say "Bring in Moss". Give us a legitimate receiver corps for our next QB to work with. Give us time to find some O-line help, and get our team back on track.

    Moss can do that.

    Caine
    I just don't put Randy's character anywhere near as high as you do. I don't question his skill even at his age. The guy has great hands/balls skills, great height and still has enough speed to demand a lot of respect. However, if that means that this cheetah is only good for about 7 deep routes in a game to conserve his energy, then you better take advantage of them.

    IMO, he takes off way more plays than the average receiver. I think this guy needs to be on a well established franchise where players don't have the luxury of second guessing their coaches or ownership. I don't think Frazier and the Vikings is that team for this guy.

    He can help somebody out, but not the Vikings right now, he needs a huge dose of humility similar to what TO received recently or he will not help this team improve.

    I am always a sucker for great talent and athletic ability that Randy clearly has, but I think he needs a huge case of humility which includes lower compensation for him to see things a little clearer. He is getting a good dose of it this year, so maybe he will learn that he isn't all that anymore.

  8. #138
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087468
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087463
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087435
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087425
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    But if BB just wanted the draft pick why did he wait until week 4 or whenever? Couldn't he have gotten the same pick or better earlier and not had the distraction?
    It is my opinion that something happened that got RM traded, similar to what happened here, except it stayed "in house". Also probably why he didn't see the field much in Tennessee.
    Personally, I can see this going either way. Randy is far from a saint, and his skills aren't SO great at this point that he can get away with a lot of shit. It's hard for me to defend a guy that plays when he wants to play. If that means that you have to have the perfect environment before this guy decides he wants to perform, then MN is not the place for him. We are not and were not a team that can foster that type of player.

    I'm disappointed that we lost a 3rd round pick to bring this guy in, but not so disappointed to see him go. I don't question his skill, I question his heart and his influence on fellow players. I also think Childress owned most of the responsibility on how the whole Randy thing played out.

    Frazier, just say no to Moss. You will have plenty of critics to dissect everything you are doing wrong, you don't need another one in the locker room.
    Gonna try and tackle two posts at once:

    Why would Bellichick wait until week 4? Probably looking to see who he could get to fill the hole. Remember, he signed Dieon Branch - a former Patriot star - almost immediately. So, follow the Bellichick logic:

    "I have an aging player (Moss) in the final year of his deal who wants a final big contract...I'm not going to giver it to him. I see that a former player at the same position (Branch) might be available. The former player pretty much knows the offense already, he's a solid player, and I can get him cheap. So, I can ride the season with BOTH guys, or - since we can already beat everyone in the NFL - I can parlay the aging guy (Moss) into a draft pick."

    Now, everything above is THEORY. I have no PROOF of any of it. But I do find it suspicious, to say the least, that Dieon Branch was signed almost IMMEDIATELY after Moss was traded. Branch had become redundant in Seattle, so Seattle moved him for a 4th rounder.

    So, in the end, Bellichick wound up with a receiver that fit his scheme better, and a better draft pick, Seattle wound up with a draft pick, and Minnesota got rid of an idiot coach.

    Finally, addressing the "Play when I want to play" issue...Randy has taken plays off. No one disputes that. But so has Berrian. So has Rice. So has Harvin....


    ..well...maybe not Harvin.

    Bottom line is Receivers don't go 100% on 100% of the plays. If a play is a quick hit to the opposite side, the Receiver might put in token effort KNOWING that the ball is going to the opposite side, and that he's effectively out of the play.

    Blaming Randy for "giving up on plays" is another accusation that most NFL receivers can be hit with. How many times have we seen our guys fail to get open and sort of float through the space their route ended...not even trying to make anything happen? I see that a lot.

    So, does Randy REALLY "quit"? No more so than anyone else. Not really.

    But what does Randy bring to the table?

    From all reports, he's the perfect team mate. He practices hard. He wants to win. He's not a prima-donna "I need the ball" receiver unless the team is losing...and then it's more of a "I'll take the game on MY shoulders" type of thing.

    Further, he demands coverage. Despite what Marrdro says, Moss extended the field for us....IMMEDIATELY. Without knowing Chiller's KAO. He forced Defenses to account for him. He created opportunities for our passing game. He also allowed our receivers to fall back into their more natural positions (Harvin in the slot, Berrian on the bench).

    And the ONLY times that Moss has EVER spoken out against his team is in toxic situations (In Oakland during it's decline, and here when Chiller was killing us).

    So I say "Bring in Moss". Give us a legitimate receiver corps for our next QB to work with. Give us time to find some O-line help, and get our team back on track.

    Moss can do that.

    Caine
    I just don't put Randy's character anywhere near as high as you do. I don't question his skill even at his age. The guy has great hands/balls skills, great height and still has enough speed to demand a lot of respect. However, if that means that this cheetah is only good for about 7 deep routes in a game to conserve his energy, then you better take advantage of them.

    IMO, he takes off way more plays than the average receiver. I think this guy needs to be on a well established franchise where players don't have the luxury of second guessing their coaches or ownership. I don't think Frazier and the Vikings is that team for this guy.

    He can help somebody out, but not the Vikings right now, he needs a huge dose of humility similar to what TO received recently or he will not help this team improve.

    I am always a sucker for great talent and athletic ability that Randy clearly has, but I think he needs a huge case of humility which includes lower compensation for him to see things a little clearer. He is getting a good dose of it this year, so maybe he will learn that he isn't all that anymore.
    You are probably right, but when I see the names Baskett,Lewis,Camarillo, and Berrian on our roster, it seems Moss would be an upgrade.
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  9. #139
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1087469
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087468
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087463
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087435
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087425
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Are Viking fans the only NFL fans that haven't figured out that Moss just flat out isn't good anymore? The Patriots two rookie tight ends both had more receiving yards than him.
    That's a short sighted comparison model to attempt to use. As seaniemck7 pointed out,. Moss has had to learn two new offenses, and had a beat up Favre to throw to him, then went to Tennessee where they had a completely dysfunctional offense.

    Explain to me how that is Randy's fault?

    How many players - especially at skill positions - simply step in to a new scheme and immediately "Light it up"? The answer is, almost none.

    Meanwhile, those Rookies had the benefit of practicing the scheme they were in during the preseason, and staying in it all season long...and having Tom Brady to throw to them.

    But feel free to write off Moss. I sincerely hope that the rest of the NFL blindly follows your lead and we can sign him back. Remember what they said about him when he left Oakland? They said he was washed up and had lost a step...


    ...and he went to New England and set the single season TD record.

    Is Randy approaching the end of his career? No one doubts that. He's 33 years old. But to say he isn't good anymore is flat out ridiculous. I'm betting he'll surprise you next season.

    Caine
    You make a good argument.
    I think Moss likely still has the talent to be a productive receiver in the NFL. He needs to get his head on right first though.
    If Bill Bellichick can't coach you, you are uncoachable.
    I'd rather take a shot at Vincent Jackson.
    Then consider this, was Randy really "uncoachable", or did Bellichick get something for a player he knew he wasn't going to resign?

    Everyone knew that Randy wanted a new contract in New England. He LIKED it there. He liked everything about it...except that they wouldn't pay him. And he said so - clearly and honestly. Was that a sign that Randy wanted out of New England? Hell no!!

    So, Bellichick knew Randy wasn't going to get his deal - no one in New England gets a payday other than Brady. So what was the better option, to carry Moss on the roster and ride him through the rest of the season, or to take a stab at getting a draft pick for him?

    It is my THEORY that Bellichick made the move for the pick, not to "dump Moss".

    And it worked. New England now has our 3rd round pick...and we have.....ummm.... well ...... errrr........What do we have again? Oh yeah, a fired retarded ex-coach.

    So, again, I think it was simply as numbers move for New England. They're all about taking value guys and plugging them into the system and winning championships...our 3rd rounder fits that style a lot more than Randy Moss does.

    (And I hope Frazier brings Moss back too...we need help with our Receivers, and Moss would add quite add bit to that group).

    Caine
    But if BB just wanted the draft pick why did he wait until week 4 or whenever? Couldn't he have gotten the same pick or better earlier and not had the distraction?
    It is my opinion that something happened that got RM traded, similar to what happened here, except it stayed "in house". Also probably why he didn't see the field much in Tennessee.
    Personally, I can see this going either way. Randy is far from a saint, and his skills aren't SO great at this point that he can get away with a lot of shit. It's hard for me to defend a guy that plays when he wants to play. If that means that you have to have the perfect environment before this guy decides he wants to perform, then MN is not the place for him. We are not and were not a team that can foster that type of player.

    I'm disappointed that we lost a 3rd round pick to bring this guy in, but not so disappointed to see him go. I don't question his skill, I question his heart and his influence on fellow players. I also think Childress owned most of the responsibility on how the whole Randy thing played out.

    Frazier, just say no to Moss. You will have plenty of critics to dissect everything you are doing wrong, you don't need another one in the locker room.
    Gonna try and tackle two posts at once:

    Why would Bellichick wait until week 4? Probably looking to see who he could get to fill the hole. Remember, he signed Dieon Branch - a former Patriot star - almost immediately. So, follow the Bellichick logic:

    "I have an aging player (Moss) in the final year of his deal who wants a final big contract...I'm not going to giver it to him. I see that a former player at the same position (Branch) might be available. The former player pretty much knows the offense already, he's a solid player, and I can get him cheap. So, I can ride the season with BOTH guys, or - since we can already beat everyone in the NFL - I can parlay the aging guy (Moss) into a draft pick."

    Now, everything above is THEORY. I have no PROOF of any of it. But I do find it suspicious, to say the least, that Dieon Branch was signed almost IMMEDIATELY after Moss was traded. Branch had become redundant in Seattle, so Seattle moved him for a 4th rounder.

    So, in the end, Bellichick wound up with a receiver that fit his scheme better, and a better draft pick, Seattle wound up with a draft pick, and Minnesota got rid of an idiot coach.

    Finally, addressing the "Play when I want to play" issue...Randy has taken plays off. No one disputes that. But so has Berrian. So has Rice. So has Harvin....


    ..well...maybe not Harvin.

    Bottom line is Receivers don't go 100% on 100% of the plays. If a play is a quick hit to the opposite side, the Receiver might put in token effort KNOWING that the ball is going to the opposite side, and that he's effectively out of the play.

    Blaming Randy for "giving up on plays" is another accusation that most NFL receivers can be hit with. How many times have we seen our guys fail to get open and sort of float through the space their route ended...not even trying to make anything happen? I see that a lot.

    So, does Randy REALLY "quit"? No more so than anyone else. Not really.

    But what does Randy bring to the table?

    From all reports, he's the perfect team mate. He practices hard. He wants to win. He's not a prima-donna "I need the ball" receiver unless the team is losing...and then it's more of a "I'll take the game on MY shoulders" type of thing.

    Further, he demands coverage. Despite what Marrdro says, Moss extended the field for us....IMMEDIATELY. Without knowing Chiller's KAO. He forced Defenses to account for him. He created opportunities for our passing game. He also allowed our receivers to fall back into their more natural positions (Harvin in the slot, Berrian on the bench).

    And the ONLY times that Moss has EVER spoken out against his team is in toxic situations (In Oakland during it's decline, and here when Chiller was killing us).

    So I say "Bring in Moss". Give us a legitimate receiver corps for our next QB to work with. Give us time to find some O-line help, and get our team back on track.

    Moss can do that.

    Caine
    I just don't put Randy's character anywhere near as high as you do. I don't question his skill even at his age. The guy has great hands/balls skills, great height and still has enough speed to demand a lot of respect. However, if that means that this cheetah is only good for about 7 deep routes in a game to conserve his energy, then you better take advantage of them.

    IMO, he takes off way more plays than the average receiver. I think this guy needs to be on a well established franchise where players don't have the luxury of second guessing their coaches or ownership. I don't think Frazier and the Vikings is that team for this guy.

    He can help somebody out, but not the Vikings right now, he needs a huge dose of humility similar to what TO received recently or he will not help this team improve.

    I am always a sucker for great talent and athletic ability that Randy clearly has, but I think he needs a huge case of humility which includes lower compensation for him to see things a little clearer. He is getting a good dose of it this year, so maybe he will learn that he isn't all that anymore.
    You are probably right, but when I see the names Baskett,Lewis,Camarillo, and Berrian on our roster, it seems Moss would be an upgrade.
    No doubt, we could use an upgrade, from a talent perspective, Randy is a huge upgrade...but I think there are other ways to make greater improvement. Berrian needs to go, Rice needs to stay healthy and sign, Harvin needs to stay healthy and stay the animal that he is, I like Camarillo as a 4, 5 guy. We need another solid WR which probaly means FA. The draft is not out of the question, just don't expect a ton of production out of the blocks.

    We also need to hire an OC (unless I missed a signing here) and identify what type of offense we plan on running next year, before signing any key guys.

  10. #140
    Caine's Avatar
    Caine is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Leslie Frazier fulltime head coach

    [quote="tastywaves" #1087472]
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1087469
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087468
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087463
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1087435
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087425
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087344
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1087334
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087329
    Quote Originally Posted by "DiehardVikesFan" #1087324
    Blah, blah, blah
    Pearls of Wisdom...
    Blah, blah, blah
    More pearls of wisdom...
    Blah, blah, blah
    Gonna try and tackle two posts at once:

    Why would Bellichick wait until week 4? Probably looking to see who he could get to fill the hole. Remember, he signed Dieon Branch - a former Patriot star - almost immediately. So, follow the Bellichick logic:

    "I have an aging player (Moss) in the final year of his deal who wants a final big contract...I'm not going to giver it to him. I see that a former player at the same position (Branch) might be available. The former player pretty much knows the offense already, he's a solid player, and I can get him cheap. So, I can ride the season with BOTH guys, or - since we can already beat everyone in the NFL - I can parlay the aging guy (Moss) into a draft pick."

    Now, everything above is THEORY. I have no PROOF of any of it. But I do find it suspicious, to say the least, that Dieon Branch was signed almost IMMEDIATELY after Moss was traded. Branch had become redundant in Seattle, so Seattle moved him for a 4th rounder.

    So, in the end, Bellichick wound up with a receiver that fit his scheme better, and a better draft pick, Seattle wound up with a draft pick, and Minnesota got rid of an idiot coach.

    Finally, addressing the "Play when I want to play" issue...Randy has taken plays off. No one disputes that. But so has Berrian. So has Rice. So has Harvin....


    ..well...maybe not Harvin.

    Bottom line is Receivers don't go 100% on 100% of the plays. If a play is a quick hit to the opposite side, the Receiver might put in token effort KNOWING that the ball is going to the opposite side, and that he's effectively out of the play.

    Blaming Randy for "giving up on plays" is another accusation that most NFL receivers can be hit with. How many times have we seen our guys fail to get open and sort of float through the space their route ended...not even trying to make anything happen? I see that a lot.

    So, does Randy REALLY "quit"? No more so than anyone else. Not really.

    But what does Randy bring to the table?

    From all reports, he's the perfect team mate. He practices hard. He wants to win. He's not a prima-donna "I need the ball" receiver unless the team is losing...and then it's more of a "I'll take the game on MY shoulders" type of thing.

    Further, he demands coverage. Despite what Marrdro says, Moss extended the field for us....IMMEDIATELY. Without knowing Chiller's KAO. He forced Defenses to account for him. He created opportunities for our passing game. He also allowed our receivers to fall back into their more natural positions (Harvin in the slot, Berrian on the bench).

    And the ONLY times that Moss has EVER spoken out against his team is in toxic situations (In Oakland during it's decline, and here when Chiller was killing us).

    So I say "Bring in Moss". Give us a legitimate receiver corps for our next QB to work with. Give us time to find some O-line help, and get our team back on track.

    Moss can do that.

    Caine
    I just don't put Randy's character anywhere near as high as you do. I don't question his skill even at his age. The guy has great hands/balls skills, great height and still has enough speed to demand a lot of respect. However, if that means that this cheetah is only good for about 7 deep routes in a game to conserve his energy, then you better take advantage of them.

    IMO, he takes off way more plays than the average receiver. I think this guy needs to be on a well established franchise where players don't have the luxury of second guessing their coaches or ownership. I don't think Frazier and the Vikings is that team for this guy.

    He can help somebody out, but not the Vikings right now, he needs a huge dose of humility similar to what TO received recently or he will not help this team improve.

    I am always a sucker for great talent and athletic ability that Randy clearly has, but I think he needs a huge case of humility which includes lower compensation for him to see things a little clearer. He is getting a good dose of it this year, so maybe he will learn that he isn't all that anymore.
    You are probably right, but when I see the names Baskett,Lewis,Camarillo, and Berrian on our roster, it seems Moss would be an upgrade.
    No doubt, we could use an upgrade, from a talent perspective, Randy is a huge upgrade...but I think there are other ways to make greater improvement. Berrian needs to go, Rice needs to stay healthy and sign, Harvin needs to stay healthy and stay the animal that he is, I like Camarillo as a 4, 5 guy. We need another solid WR which probaly means FA. The draft is not out of the question, just don't expect a ton of production out of the blocks.

    We also need to hire an OC (unless I missed a signing here) and identify what type of offense we plan on running next year, before signing any key guys.
    Here's what I feel about it...

    Randy has taken a lot of heat in the media...some of it justified.

    On the other side of that statement is the point that some of it - in my opinion, "Much of it" - was undeserved.

    No matter where he went, he was the focus of attention. Due to his incredible talent, he was a media target...and at first he complied. Then, when the media started misquoting him and started taking his statements out of context, he shut up.

    Of course, that just fueled the media fire and they started nit-picking him. Everything he did was micro-analysed. Everything was rehashed, over and over, and the press just ripped him up.

    Ever since then, it's been a teeter-totter between Randy and the press.

    What issues did Moss have in Oakland?

    How about in New England?

    Truth is, many of the alleged "issues" Moss has had over the years have been grossly overblown by the media. Like "Running over the cop"...which was actually him trying to get a meter maid, who had NO AUTHORITY to block his car in traffic, to move out of his way. Or the faux-moon...Joe Buck thought it was "disgusting"...I laughed hysterically.

    Randy has told off an owner twice (Told off Red *blows goats* McCombs and Al Davis) - and was right both times. Randy has blasted a Head Coach once - and was correct again. He has never been the one to START the problem, but he has always been completely HONEST when asked what he thought about it.

    Randy has never gone to the Media to solve problems or self-promote. He's never been a locker room cancer like Owens. He's almost always been described as the "perfect team mate".

    Oh...he yelled at a caterer once. Of course, I chewed out the drive through window clerk at McDonalds once...

    My point is that Randy isn't what the headlines portray him as. Trouble is, no one is writing THAT story. Instead, they drag up every overblown story from the past and try and prove how he's a distraction, or of low character, or selfish, or something else that the FACTS simply don't show.

    So I DO have a great deal of faith in Randy's "character". Randy wants a strong Head Coach...so do WE. Randy wants to work with and for people he respects...so do WE. Truth is, if Randy is a Viking again and is HAPPY about it, we KNOW we're on the right path.

    He's never been wrong yet.

    Caine

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