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  1. #101
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    singersp wrote:
    That lack of pass protection didn't start rearing it's ugly head the day Brett Favre stepped on the field, like Infidel and some others want you to believe.

    That lack of pass prorection has been here since 2005 & while some improvements were made here & there, it was never rectified.

    It wasn't there for Culpepper. It wasn't there for Johnson. It wasn't there for Jackson, Bollinger or Frerotte either. It hasn't been there for Favre.

    But fans here kept saying the QB was the one at fault & if only we had a great QB we would for sure win a SB.

    Fans were so eager to cast Jackson under the bus & blame him solely for any of our loses instead of saying the OL was part of the problem. Instead they said our OL was great & anyone calling their play or the receiving corp (which consited of T-Will) suspect were merely making excuses.

    It wasn't until Favre experienced the wrath of the same lackluster OL output that people now accepted that as one of the valid reasons for our losses. Favre has to share in that blame for he has had some craptacular play despite the Oline.

    It never ceases to amaze me though how some (not you doc) expected TJ to thrive and perform well behind a poor Oline & cast him under the bus when he didn't, yet write Favre a free pass & blame the Oline & receivers for all the QB's woes.
    Singer Singer Singer........

    I thought I'd solved this for you. Obviously I haven't.

    Its not the OL my friend. Its what the defenses are doing to us since the Aints game, not since 2005.

    Is there a problem with pass protection? Yes, but if you watch the OL block, in almost all instance they are doing thier job. Sure there are a few gaffs with line calls and we just flat out miss the stunt or the delayed blitz, but it isn't half as bad as the last year with Birk in there.

    Our problem stems from the fact that we have a QB that isn't gonna get off his spot because he can't.

    As in the Ain't game, all you have to do is bring one more defender than we have a blocker for and the Noodle is gonna go down, especially when we don't have a big kid like El Syd out there on the edge that can get off the line.

    Pass protection yes. There is a problem, but it isn't the OL that is the problem. Its how we counter what the defense is dictating to us when we should be dictating to them.
    They say that when you believe a stereotype, you only see things that affirm your beliefs and subconsciously ignore things that refute it...

    ...you appear to do that.

    The O-line stinks. They can't pick up blitzes, and they often can't even stop 4 from getting home. Loadholt is either offsides or lost in space, and McKinney has looked good this season mostly because Loadholt has looked so terrible.

    Further, when Sullivan isn't in there the center position is a turnstile. Our two best lineman this season have been Hutch and - are you ready for this? - Herrera.

    But the line as a whole has been crap.

    That said, Singer is absolutely right, the line has been crap for a long time. Jackson, Frerotte, Johnson, Favre, they've all had to put up with it.

    But it also isn't Favre's immobility (which is an overused and inaccurate term) that is the problem...after all, Jackson is a much more "mobile" guy, yet he stunk. Opposing teams have simply learned to take away our marginal receivers. Once in awhile they get open, but not with any consistancy. And if they do, the pressure is usually in the QB's face by then.

    Bottom line, we need a better O-line and some upgrades at receiver...as well as a new QB (And it won't be Webb or Jackson).

    Caine
    Couple of thoughts.....

    TJ has never played behind this line especially our Center.

    I will give you Sully over Coop. I actually thought he had one good game, but since then he has struggled a bit.

    Watch our Ol play and then watch other OLs play. Very few of them play better than ours.

    One question........

    Who picks up the blitz?
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #102
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    singersp wrote:
    That lack of pass protection didn't start rearing it's ugly head the day Brett Favre stepped on the field, like Infidel and some others want you to believe.

    That lack of pass prorection has been here since 2005 & while some improvements were made here & there, it was never rectified.

    It wasn't there for Culpepper. It wasn't there for Johnson. It wasn't there for Jackson, Bollinger or Frerotte either. It hasn't been there for Favre.

    But fans here kept saying the QB was the one at fault & if only we had a great QB we would for sure win a SB.

    Fans were so eager to cast Jackson under the bus & blame him solely for any of our loses instead of saying the OL was part of the problem. Instead they said our OL was great & anyone calling their play or the receiving corp (which consited of T-Will) suspect were merely making excuses.

    It wasn't until Favre experienced the wrath of the same lackluster OL output that people now accepted that as one of the valid reasons for our losses. Favre has to share in that blame for he has had some craptacular play despite the Oline.

    It never ceases to amaze me though how some (not you doc) expected TJ to thrive and perform well behind a poor Oline & cast him under the bus when he didn't, yet write Favre a free pass & blame the Oline & receivers for all the QB's woes.
    Singer Singer Singer........

    I thought I'd solved this for you. Obviously I haven't.

    Its not the OL my friend. Its what the defenses are doing to us since the Aints game, not since 2005.

    Is there a problem with pass protection? Yes, but if you watch the OL block, in almost all instance they are doing thier job. Sure there are a few gaffs with line calls and we just flat out miss the stunt or the delayed blitz, but it isn't half as bad as the last year with Birk in there.

    Our problem stems from the fact that we have a QB that isn't gonna get off his spot because he can't.

    As in the Ain't game, all you have to do is bring one more defender than we have a blocker for and the Noodle is gonna go down, especially when we don't have a big kid like El Syd out there on the edge that can get off the line.

    Pass protection yes. There is a problem, but it isn't the OL that is the problem. Its how we counter what the defense is dictating to us when we should be dictating to them.
    They say that when you believe a stereotype, you only see things that affirm your beliefs and subconsciously ignore things that refute it...

    ...you appear to do that.

    The O-line stinks. They can't pick up blitzes, and they often can't even stop 4 from getting home. Loadholt is either offsides or lost in space, and McKinney has looked good this season mostly because Loadholt has looked so terrible.

    Further, when Sullivan isn't in there the center position is a turnstile. Our two best lineman this season have been Hutch and - are you ready for this? - Herrera.

    But the line as a whole has been crap.

    That said, Singer is absolutely right, the line has been crap for a long time. Jackson, Frerotte, Johnson, Favre, they've all had to put up with it.

    But it also isn't Favre's immobility (which is an overused and inaccurate term) that is the problem...after all, Jackson is a much more "mobile" guy, yet he stunk. Opposing teams have simply learned to take away our marginal receivers. Once in awhile they get open, but not with any consistancy. And if they do, the pressure is usually in the QB's face by then.

    Bottom line, we need a better O-line and some upgrades at receiver...as well as a new QB (And it won't be Webb or Jackson).

    Caine
    +1 to every paragraph!

  3. #103
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    ejmat wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    singersp wrote:
    That lack of pass protection didn't start rearing it's ugly head the day Brett Favre stepped on the field, like Infidel and some others want you to believe.

    That lack of pass prorection has been here since 2005 & while some improvements were made here & there, it was never rectified.

    It wasn't there for Culpepper. It wasn't there for Johnson. It wasn't there for Jackson, Bollinger or Frerotte either. It hasn't been there for Favre.

    But fans here kept saying the QB was the one at fault & if only we had a great QB we would for sure win a SB.

    Fans were so eager to cast Jackson under the bus & blame him solely for any of our loses instead of saying the OL was part of the problem. Instead they said our OL was great & anyone calling their play or the receiving corp (which consited of T-Will) suspect were merely making excuses.

    It wasn't until Favre experienced the wrath of the same lackluster OL output that people now accepted that as one of the valid reasons for our losses. Favre has to share in that blame for he has had some craptacular play despite the Oline.

    It never ceases to amaze me though how some (not you doc) expected TJ to thrive and perform well behind a poor Oline & cast him under the bus when he didn't, yet write Favre a free pass & blame the Oline & receivers for all the QB's woes.
    Singer Singer Singer........

    I thought I'd solved this for you. Obviously I haven't.

    Its not the OL my friend. Its what the defenses are doing to us since the Aints game, not since 2005.

    Is there a problem with pass protection? Yes, but if you watch the OL block, in almost all instance they are doing thier job. Sure there are a few gaffs with line calls and we just flat out miss the stunt or the delayed blitz, but it isn't half as bad as the last year with Birk in there.

    Our problem stems from the fact that we have a QB that isn't gonna get off his spot because he can't.

    As in the Ain't game, all you have to do is bring one more defender than we have a blocker for and the Noodle is gonna go down, especially when we don't have a big kid like El Syd out there on the edge that can get off the line.

    Pass protection yes. There is a problem, but it isn't the OL that is the problem. Its how we counter what the defense is dictating to us when we should be dictating to them.
    They say that when you believe a stereotype, you only see things that affirm your beliefs and subconsciously ignore things that refute it...

    ...you appear to do that.

    The O-line stinks. They can't pick up blitzes, and they often can't even stop 4 from getting home. Loadholt is either offsides or lost in space, and McKinney has looked good this season mostly because Loadholt has looked so terrible.

    Further, when Sullivan isn't in there the center position is a turnstile. Our two best lineman this season have been Hutch and - are you ready for this? - Herrera.

    But the line as a whole has been crap.

    That said, Singer is absolutely right, the line has been crap for a long time. Jackson, Frerotte, Johnson, Favre, they've all had to put up with it.

    But it also isn't Favre's immobility (which is an overused and inaccurate term) that is the problem...after all, Jackson is a much more "mobile" guy, yet he stunk. Opposing teams have simply learned to take away our marginal receivers. Once in awhile they get open, but not with any consistancy. And if they do, the pressure is usually in the QB's face by then.

    Bottom line, we need a better O-line and some upgrades at receiver...as well as a new QB (And it won't be Webb or Jackson).

    Caine
    +1 to every paragraph!
    Quit encouraging him. :P
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #104
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    singersp wrote:
    That lack of pass protection didn't start rearing it's ugly head the day Brett Favre stepped on the field, like Infidel and some others want you to believe.

    That lack of pass prorection has been here since 2005 & while some improvements were made here & there, it was never rectified.

    It wasn't there for Culpepper. It wasn't there for Johnson. It wasn't there for Jackson, Bollinger or Frerotte either. It hasn't been there for Favre.

    But fans here kept saying the QB was the one at fault & if only we had a great QB we would for sure win a SB.

    Fans were so eager to cast Jackson under the bus & blame him solely for any of our loses instead of saying the OL was part of the problem. Instead they said our OL was great & anyone calling their play or the receiving corp (which consited of T-Will) suspect were merely making excuses.

    It wasn't until Favre experienced the wrath of the same lackluster OL output that people now accepted that as one of the valid reasons for our losses. Favre has to share in that blame for he has had some craptacular play despite the Oline.

    It never ceases to amaze me though how some (not you doc) expected TJ to thrive and perform well behind a poor Oline & cast him under the bus when he didn't, yet write Favre a free pass & blame the Oline & receivers for all the QB's woes.
    Singer Singer Singer........

    I thought I'd solved this for you. Obviously I haven't.

    Its not the OL my friend. Its what the defenses are doing to us since the Aints game, not since 2005.

    Is there a problem with pass protection? Yes, but if you watch the OL block, in almost all instance they are doing thier job. Sure there are a few gaffs with line calls and we just flat out miss the stunt or the delayed blitz, but it isn't half as bad as the last year with Birk in there.

    Our problem stems from the fact that we have a QB that isn't gonna get off his spot because he can't.

    As in the Ain't game, all you have to do is bring one more defender than we have a blocker for and the Noodle is gonna go down, especially when we don't have a big kid like El Syd out there on the edge that can get off the line.

    Pass protection yes. There is a problem, but it isn't the OL that is the problem. Its how we counter what the defense is dictating to us when we should be dictating to them.
    They say that when you believe a stereotype, you only see things that affirm your beliefs and subconsciously ignore things that refute it...

    ...you appear to do that.

    The O-line stinks. They can't pick up blitzes, and they often can't even stop 4 from getting home. Loadholt is either offsides or lost in space, and McKinney has looked good this season mostly because Loadholt has looked so terrible.

    Further, when Sullivan isn't in there the center position is a turnstile. Our two best lineman this season have been Hutch and - are you ready for this? - Herrera.

    But the line as a whole has been crap.

    That said, Singer is absolutely right, the line has been crap for a long time. Jackson, Frerotte, Johnson, Favre, they've all had to put up with it.

    But it also isn't Favre's immobility (which is an overused and inaccurate term) that is the problem...after all, Jackson is a much more "mobile" guy, yet he stunk. Opposing teams have simply learned to take away our marginal receivers. Once in awhile they get open, but not with any consistancy. And if they do, the pressure is usually in the QB's face by then.

    Bottom line, we need a better O-line and some upgrades at receiver...as well as a new QB (And it won't be Webb or Jackson).

    Caine
    +1 to every paragraph!
    Quit encouraging him. :P
    LOL. I can't help what I agree with. It is what it is. Caine is very wise beyond his years. LOL. I like taking some of your phrases Marrdro. It's actually pretty fun :P

  5. #105
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    ejmat wrote:
    LOL. .......snip..... I like taking some of your phrases Marrdro. It's actually pretty fun :P
    We used to have alot of that around here, before the Noodle of course.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #106
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    Favre has held the ball too long several times leading to a breakdown in protection.
    But, if the O-line does its job in pass protection, the QB doesn't have to 'move off his spot', he just needs to step up in the pocket and throw.

    Favre has been pummeled and pressured most of the season.

    The O-line and the back responsible for picking up the blitz have been mediocre at best.

    Having receivers who can't get open, and a QB who tends to always try to make a play, only makes matters worse.

    It all adds up to impotence!
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  7. #107
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    jargomcfargo wrote:
    But, if the O-line does its job in pass protection, the QB doesn't have to 'move off his spot', he just needs to step up in the pocket and throw.
    So you think that in an alignment like this, the QB doesn't have the responsibility to move?
    ................S

    .....OLB...S......MLB...S.....OLB
    CB....DE......DT....DT.....DE.......CB
    WR.....LT....LG...C...RG....RT......WR
    ......TE.........QB...........TE

    .................RB
    .................FB

    You know he is supposed to read the stunt, possibly two of them and with that 22 package he should also change the TE, possibly both TE's blocking assignment when he adjusts the WR and Backs assignments right?

    In most instances that means some sort of movement by the QB to vacate the pocket that will be collapsed, no matter how well the OL picks it up.

    Long story short, we saw this in the NFFC game and have been seeing nothing but that since. The onus is on the QB to not only make the right line call, but to get out of the pocket if necessary if he elects to pass out of this look.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #108
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    Mardro, your desperate attempts at obfuscation can never hide the fact that Favre is the most beat-up, bruised and scarred QB in the league.

    The O-Line and some of the backs have simply failed to protect him.

    Your vacuous and continuing claims that it's all Favre's fault is like blaming the guy who got hit by the drunk driver for being in the way.

    You are SUCH a sad and broken record, my friend.

    Have you even CONSIDERED using all your great skills to give us an analysis of Sunday's opponent and how that game is likely to unfold?

    That would be interesting instead of pathetic.
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  9. #109
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    Marrdro wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    But, if the O-line does its job in pass protection, the QB doesn't have to 'move off his spot', he just needs to step up in the pocket and throw.
    So you think that in an alignment like this, the QB doesn't have the responsibility to move?
    ................S

    .....OLB...S......MLB...S.....OLB
    CB....DE......DT....DT.....DE.......CB
    WR.....LT....LG...C...RG....RT......WR
    ......TE.........QB...........TE

    .................RB
    .................FB

    You know he is supposed to read the stunt, possibly two of them and with that 22 package he should also change the TE, possibly both TE's blocking assignment when he adjusts the WR and Backs assignments right?

    In most instances that means some sort of movement by the QB to vacate the pocket that will be collapsed, no matter how well the OL picks it up.

    Long story short, we saw this in the NFFC game and have been seeing nothing but that since. The onus is on the QB to not only make the right line call, but to get out of the pocket if necessary if he elects to pass out of this look.
    I admit it, it would be difficult to protect against 12 men, even though we have 12 as well.

    Identifying and picking up the blitzer is a challenge but there is no reason to believe the pocket being collapsed is inevitable.Well maybe for the Vikings O-line.
    I agree that a more mobile QB would be an asset, but that doesn't excuse the poor play of this O-line.
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  10. #110
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: The legend of Brett Favre is dead

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Has anybody else noticed that Mardro is having a melt-down?

    :woohoo:
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

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