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  1. #101
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "gagarr" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    Myself I'm all in favor of spiking the Cowboy's water at TC with a diuretic and see if Goodell is ready to suspend "America's team" for 4 games.
    I'll even put in micro small print on the water cooler "Contains bumetanide" so they have no excuses.
    Just kidding of course, not that I wouldn't LOL if someone else did it.

    But the point is that things aren't just cut and dry in all cases, reasonable discretion needs to be applied.
    Obviously Goodell doesn't want to seem lax, which I respect, but this case isn't normal.



    [size=1pt]"Contains bumetanide"[/size]

    Print it.

  2. #102
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    There is no question that the NFL acted poorly, but there are a couple of important things you are forgetting.

    1) The NFL offered Pat and Kevin a settlement that included a fine and NO SUSPENSION.
    The Williams's declined.
    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.

    If the NFL knew that Kevin's Cap'n Cruch was laced and they specifically told Kevin not to eat any cereals made by Quaker but Kevin did anyway, a good amount of blame lies with Kevin himself.

    The NFL should have informed both the FDA and the players WHY they were banning Balanced Health Products.
    But they were under no legal obligation to do so.
    The problem though, from what I've read, is that the NFL didn't tell Kevin specifically not to eat any cereals made by Quaker, even though they knew that Kevin's Cap'n Crunch was laced and cited it was Kevin's responsibility to check with the NFL every morning before he ate breakfast, to see if the cereal he has been eating legally every morning in the past, was now illegal this particular morning because the NFL discovered it had been illegally laced.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #103
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "Freya" wrote:
    The MINNESOTA Vikings do business in the state of MN. Simply put, they must abide by the laws of this state. The same goes for any other business as well, including internet businesses.
    Some business' are bound by Federal law when in comes to employees however, it is important to note that state law trumps federal laws under certain circumstances. One of those instances may be when a union is involved. STill.......As far as I know, it is impossible for a union, doing business in a state to make it's own laws under any circumstance, for any reason.
    The information I found regarding the collective bargaining agreement with the NFL was vague at best regarding the evidence of drugs in a players system.
    Which brings us back to the governing laws and again I say that the state wins. No contest.
    It may be different than the laws in other states, but that isn't the problem of the Vikings or their players.

    +1

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pat & Kevin signed contracts with the Minnesota Vikings & not the NFL.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  4. #104
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "snowinapril" wrote:
    "VikingMike" wrote:
    Now all of the leagues are interested in how this case plays out.

    [size=13pt]National eyes on Wall case[/size]

    If they can get to state court, even if they ultimately lose the case, the precedent could force sports leagues to change their policies to be in compliance with state laws in every state they have a team.
    I know we all want our players to come out of this without a suspension but isn't this going to keep the league from enforcing a drug policy that needs to be enforced to protect some of the players from themselves, ie casual drugs and real steroids.

    Loop Hole!

    I don't think that Pat and Kevin need to be suspended for 4 games.
    It is extreme for a weight loss item.
    The NFL is going to be hand cuffed if they win.
    The law is the law, it definetly supercedes the NFL. The NFL will have to adjust their practice if Pat and Kevin win. Just have to have a little faith in the courts to reach a fair conclusion. I don't understand exactly what the problem is.
    My take on this is if the NFL has that clause that you are responsible for everything you put in your body and that is what they can use to enforce the rule then the players can use any rule that can help them out too.


    Don't get me wrong I don't condone the use of drugs or enhancing supplements at all and the Williams' should be held to the same standard as everyone else. However just as they have their clauses in the contract they weren't detailed enough to check state laws and that is on them.
    There was also a disconnect somewhere in the communication process since 8 people tested positive at the same time.
    That is a red flag to me in which the NFL should take in consideration.
    I don't expect the NFL to drop the case because it will open up an even bigger can of worms later on.
    But if they can use their loop hole there is no reason why the players can't use theirs.

  5. #105
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    There is no question that the NFL acted poorly, but there are a couple of important things you are forgetting.

    1) The NFL offered Pat and Kevin a settlement that included a fine and NO SUSPENSION.
    The Williams's declined.
    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.

    If the NFL knew that Kevin's Cap'n Cruch was laced and they specifically told Kevin not to eat any cereals made by Quaker but Kevin did anyway, a good amount of blame lies with Kevin himself.

    The NFL should have informed both the FDA and the players WHY they were banning Balanced Health Products.
    But they were under no legal obligation to do so.
    The problem though, from what I've read, is that the NFL didn't tell Kevin specifically not to eat any cereals made by Quaker, even though they knew that Kevin's Cap'n Crunch was laced and cited it was Kevin's responsibility to check with the NFL every morning before he ate breakfast, to see if the cereal he has been eating legally every morning in the past, was now illegal this particular morning because the NFL discovered it had been illegally laced.
    Originally that is what I thought as well.
    But when the federal judge made his decision, it was disclosed that the NFL did tell the players not to use Balanced Health Products.

    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.)
    When I heard that, the Williams's lost my support.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  6. #106
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    There is no question that the NFL acted poorly, but there are a couple of important things you are forgetting.

    1) The NFL offered Pat and Kevin a settlement that included a fine and NO SUSPENSION.
    The Williams's declined.
    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.

    If the NFL knew that Kevin's Cap'n Cruch was laced and they specifically told Kevin not to eat any cereals made by Quaker but Kevin did anyway, a good amount of blame lies with Kevin himself.

    The NFL should have informed both the FDA and the players WHY they were banning Balanced Health Products.
    But they were under no legal obligation to do so.
    The problem though, from what I've read, is that the NFL didn't tell Kevin specifically not to eat any cereals made by Quaker, even though they knew that Kevin's Cap'n Crunch was laced and cited it was Kevin's responsibility to check with the NFL every morning before he ate breakfast, to see if the cereal he has been eating legally every morning in the past, was now illegal this particular morning because the NFL discovered it had been illegally laced.
    Originally that is what I thought as well.
    But when the federal judge made his decision, it was disclosed that the NFL did tell the players not to use Balanced Health Products.

    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.)
    When I heard that, the Williams's lost my support.
    I understood that to mean they informed the team, who in turn may or may not have informed the players. The NFL should have, IMO, informed the players directly, which they did not.

    "Well we told someone to tell the players....."

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #107
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    There is no question that the NFL acted poorly, but there are a couple of important things you are forgetting.

    1) The NFL offered Pat and Kevin a settlement that included a fine and NO SUSPENSION.
    The Williams's declined.
    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.

    If the NFL knew that Kevin's Cap'n Cruch was laced and they specifically told Kevin not to eat any cereals made by Quaker but Kevin did anyway, a good amount of blame lies with Kevin himself.

    The NFL should have informed both the FDA and the players WHY they were banning Balanced Health Products.
    But they were under no legal obligation to do so.
    The problem though, from what I've read, is that the NFL didn't tell Kevin specifically not to eat any cereals made by Quaker, even though they knew that Kevin's Cap'n Crunch was laced and cited it was Kevin's responsibility to check with the NFL every morning before he ate breakfast, to see if the cereal he has been eating legally every morning in the past, was now illegal this particular morning because the NFL discovered it had been illegally laced.
    Originally that is what I thought as well.
    But when the federal judge made his decision, it was disclosed that the NFL did tell the players not to use Balanced Health Products.

    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.)
    When I heard that, the Williams's lost my support.
    I understood that to mean they informed the team, who in turn may or may not have informed the players. The NFL should have, IMO, informed the players directly, which they did not.

    "Well we told someone to tell the players....."
    how would they do that?
    They're not going to call each player at home and say "Don't take starcaps, they may or may not have banned substances in them".
    They give the teams and NFLPA the message, who are supposed to forward the message on.

    Its like working at an office.
    If the CEO makes a decision that effects everyone, sometimes there will be a big general meeting to tell everyone, but if its a minor issue (this is) they'll tell the 3 or 4 people under them, who in turn will tell the department managers, etc... it will work its way down the heirarchy.

  8. #108
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    [quote author=Mr Anderson link=topic=52355.msg972535#msg972535 date=1248297562]
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    There is no question that the NFL acted poorly, but there are a couple of important things you are forgetting.

    1) The NFL offered Pat and Kevin a settlement that included a fine and NO SUSPENSION.
    The Williams's declined.
    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.

    If the NFL knew that Kevin's Cap'n Cruch was laced and they specifically told Kevin not to eat any cereals made by Quaker but Kevin did anyway, a good amount of blame lies with Kevin himself.

    The NFL should have informed both the FDA and the players WHY they were banning Balanced Health Products.
    But they were under no legal obligation to do so.
    The problem though, from what I've read, is that the NFL didn't tell Kevin specifically not to eat any cereals made by Quaker, even though they knew that Kevin's Cap'n Crunch was laced and cited it was Kevin's responsibility to check with the NFL every morning before he ate breakfast, to see if the cereal he has been eating legally every morning in the past, was now illegal this particular morning because the NFL discovered it had been illegally laced.
    Originally that is what I thought as well.
    But when the federal judge made his decision, it was disclosed that the NFL did tell the players not to use Balanced Health Products.

    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.)
    When I heard that, the Williams's lost my support.
    I understood that to mean they informed the team, who in turn may or may not have informed the players. The NFL should have, IMO, informed the players directly, which they did not.

    "Well we told someone to tell the players....."
    how would they do that?
    They're not going to call each player at home and say "Don't take starcaps, they may or may not have banned substances in them".
    They give the teams and NFLPA the message, who are supposed to forward the message on.

    Its like working at an office.
    If the CEO makes a decision that effects everyone, sometimes there will be a big general meeting to tell everyone, but if its a minor issue (this is) they'll tell the 3 or 4 people under them, who in turn will tell the department managers, etc... it will work its way down the heirarchy.
    [/quote]

    E-mail or general mail come to mind.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #109
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "singersp" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [quote author=NodakPaul link=topic=52355.msg972543#msg972543 date=1248298735]
    [quote author=Mr Anderson link=topic=52355.msg972535#msg972535 date=1248297562]
    This pooh is fricken Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.


    Seriously.


    Every punishment should be discretionary. Goodell is an donkey butt. It's dumb that this has come so far.


    The company added an ingredient to an NFL approved supplement. That ingredient made it illegal in the NFL. The label was not changed. The players had no way of knowing. The NFL did not know the drug was added. If the players and the organization thought they players were taking an approved drug, the only people that should be in question is the manufacturer.

    No discretion only causes problems. It's like mandatory minimum sentences for criminals, it gives way too much power to those doling out punishments.


    So if Pat Williams' uncle is angry that Pat didn't hook him up with some pro-bowl tickets and injected him with steroids in his sleep, Pat would be suspended? Or would Goodell be a good guy and realize they had no way of knowing?

    If Kevin Williams' sister in law was upset that Kevin wouldn't front her the money for her new business and sprinkled Kevin's Captain Crunch with cocaine, and he tested positive for it, he would be suspended? Or would Goodell take his head out of his jiggly butt and let him off?
    There is no question that the NFL acted poorly, but there are a couple of important things you are forgetting.

    1) The NFL offered Pat and Kevin a settlement that included a fine and NO SUSPENSION.
    The Williams's declined.
    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.

    If the NFL knew that Kevin's Cap'n Cruch was laced and they specifically told Kevin not to eat any cereals made by Quaker but Kevin did anyway, a good amount of blame lies with Kevin himself.

    The NFL should have informed both the FDA and the players WHY they were banning Balanced Health Products.
    But they were under no legal obligation to do so.
    The problem though, from what I've read, is that the NFL didn't tell Kevin specifically not to eat any cereals made by Quaker, even though they knew that Kevin's Cap'n Crunch was laced and cited it was Kevin's responsibility to check with the NFL every morning before he ate breakfast, to see if the cereal he has been eating legally every morning in the past, was now illegal this particular morning because the NFL discovered it had been illegally laced.
    Originally that is what I thought as well.
    But when the federal judge made his decision, it was disclosed that the NFL did tell the players not to use Balanced Health Products.

    2) The NFL told all of its players, through both the NFLPA and the clubs, NOT TO USE OR ENDORSE ANY PRODUCT made by Balanced Health Products (the manufacturer of StarCaps.)
    When I heard that, the Williams's lost my support.
    I understood that to mean they informed the team, who in turn may or may not have informed the players. The NFL should have, IMO, informed the players directly, which they did not.

    "Well we told someone to tell the players....."
    how would they do that?
    They're not going to call each player at home and say "Don't take starcaps, they may or may not have banned substances in them".
    They give the teams and NFLPA the message, who are supposed to forward the message on.

    Its like working at an office.
    If the CEO makes a decision that effects everyone, sometimes there will be a big general meeting to tell everyone, but if its a minor issue (this is) they'll tell the 3 or 4 people under them, who in turn will tell the department managers, etc... it will work its way down the heirarchy.
    [/quote]

    E-mail or general mail come to mind.
    [/quote]

    not everyone is on email.
    For example, I work for my cities Hydro utility.
    If something changes, the president will tell HR, HR will send out emails to everyone with email, and the department managers will be responsible for posting it for those without email.

    In the NFL, its impossible to have a general meeting with all employees(players), and the NFL isn't going to call each and every player.
    IMO, if anything, the Williams's should be suing the Vikings if they were indeed withholding information like that from the players.
    They'd never do that, since suing your boss isn't often a good idea if you want to keep your job

  10. #110
    Freya's Avatar
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    Re: KWILL AND PWILL SUSPENSIONS BLOCKED

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Freya" wrote:
    The MINNESOTA Vikings do business in the state of MN. Simply put, they must abide by the laws of this state. The same goes for any other business as well, including internet businesses.
    Some business' are bound by Federal law when in comes to employees however, it is important to note that state law trumps federal laws under certain circumstances. One of those instances may be when a union is involved. STill.......As far as I know, it is impossible for a union, doing business in a state to make it's own laws under any circumstance, for any reason.
    The information I found regarding the collective bargaining agreement with the NFL was vague at best regarding the evidence of drugs in a players system.
    Which brings us back to the governing laws and again I say that the state wins. No contest.
    It may be different than the laws in other states, but that isn't the problem of the Vikings or their players.

    +1

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pat & Kevin signed contracts with the Minnesota Vikings & not the NFL.
    Truth. And well said.


    Personally, I don't think there is intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be any different from this one?

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