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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    If there is a drop off in season ticket owners, I suspect it will be back up in time for the new stadium. In fact, by 2016 I expect there to be a waiting list again, at least for the first couple of years.

    As far as the older fans... I actually don't think it will be as much of a problem. There will be some atrophy, but not enough to be a significant difference. I think the bigger issue will be corporate packages. Radio Stations that have a block of 100 tickets, and stuff like that. I wonder how SBLs factor into those.
    When was the last time there was a waiting list for Vikings season tickets or better yet, in what years were there waiting lists to buy Vikings season tickets.

    As far as older fans are concerned, I still see that as a problem. I can't envision an older couple forking out an additional $5,000 to $20,000 for a pair of season tickets they may hold onto for 5 years.

    They will easily lose all those potential buyers whose intent is to buy season tickets for a year or two. Those buying season tickets would have to be committed to buying season tickets for the long haul so that swallowing the huge PSL is more palatable over the duration they hold them.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    You can't roll SBLs into the ticket price, and you certainly were NOT doing it before when you were making your ridiculous claims.
    You might not be able to roll SBL's into the actually price of the tickets, but most people will figure them in to what it costs them to attend a game.

    For instance, if a family of 4 wants to buy season tickets for a year for average seats that are $50 now, they would pay approximately $200 per game for all 4 seats.

    For that same family of 4 who wants those same average seats in the new stadium, it will probably run them $60 each plus the 1/10th of the $10,000 PSL fees which would total $1,240 per game.

    There are a lot of people out there who could afford $200/game, $2,000/season for 4 tickets, but I'm willing to bet there aren't nearly as many who can afford to fork out $1,240/game, $12,400/season.

    Even if the kept the tickets for 5 years until their teenage kids leave the nest, it still equates to $460/game, $4,600/season which is more than twice what they are paying now. That would be a deal breaker for me.

    You may happen to have a household income in excess of $100,000, but most families do not.

    Sure, there's the possibility of buying the 25% of the seats that don't have PSL's attached to them, but my guess is most of those will get sucked up by brokers & scalpers.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    When was the last time there was a waiting list for Vikings season tickets or better yet, in what years were there waiting lists to buy Vikings season tickets.

    As far as older fans are concerned, I still see that as a problem. I can't envision an older couple forking out an additional $5,000 to $20,000 for a pair of season tickets they may hold onto for 5 years.

    They will easily lose all those potential buyers whose intent is to buy season tickets for a year or two. Those buying season tickets would have to be committed to buying season tickets for the long haul so that swallowing the huge PSL is more palatable over the duration they hold them.
    The last time was 2005. I know because I was on the waiting list until then.

    I agree with you - they will lose potential buyers who are looking for a short term ownership. That is part of the point of seat licenses - to attract more committed buyers. At least for the first couple of years. After that the SBL cap of $125 million will be hit and people can go back to a higher turnover.

    I will point out, however, that people looking for a short term ownership wont be buying tickets in the $10k range. Those tickets are the premium seats that haven't moved in a very long time. The turnover rate in the lower bowl is significantly lower than the upper bowl. So anyone that fits your example will be in the low range anyway.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    You might not be able to roll SBL's into the actually price of the tickets, but most people will figure them in to what it costs them to attend a game.

    For instance, if a family of 4 wants to buy season tickets for a year for average seats that are $50 now, they would pay approximately $200 per game for all 4 seats.

    For that same family of 4 who wants those same average seats in the new stadium, it will probably run them $60 each plus the 1/10th of the $10,000 PSL fees which would total $1,240 per game.

    There are a lot of people out there who could afford $200/game, $2,000/season for 4 tickets, but I'm willing to bet there aren't nearly as many who can afford to fork out $1,240/game, $12,400/season.

    Even if the kept the tickets for 5 years until their teenage kids leave the nest, it still equates to $460/game, $4,600/season which is more than twice what they are paying now. That would be a deal breaker for me.

    You may happen to have a household income in excess of $100,000, but most families do not.

    Sure, there's the possibility of buying the 25% of the seats that don't have PSL's attached to them, but my guess is most of those will get sucked up by brokers & scalpers.
    I hear what you are saying - I really do.

    Your math is a bit off though. Actually a lot off.

    You also assigned 1/10 of $10000 to each ticket. It should have been 1/10 of $2500 for each. That is a $7500 per ticket swing, and that affects the price more than a little bit.

    The average ticket price is not $50, and has not been for a very long time. In 2009, the average ticket price was $73.23. In 2011, the average ticket price was $75. I could not find last year's average, but I know they did not go down. This year, according to the Vikings, the average ticket price went up around 3% from last year. I think a conservative estimate would be that the average ticket price is $77.

    Your family of four who had tickets for $50 each are not the average - nor will they have the average SBL of $2500 per seat. They will have an SBL of anywhere from $0 - $1000. And the Vikings stated that season ticket owners will have the right to buy tickets in the new stadium in the same general location as their tickets in the 'dome, so they won't get stuck spending more.

    Assuming ticket prices go up 20% (as in your scenario), they will cost $60 plus 1/10 of the $1000 SBL fee per game, which is $160 per game. Spread out over 5 years, as in your example, this ends up being closer to $80 per seat per game. Much more manageable.

    So if we are going to talk about the average ticket owner, let's use average numbers and average prices:

    Current: $70 per ticket (including 10% season ticket owner discount).
    Price for 1 year with SBLs and 20% increase: $84 + $2500/10 = $334 per game.
    Price for 5 years with SBLs and 20% increase: $84 + $2500/10/5 = $134 per game.


    Is the overall cost higher for ticket owners? Of course. Is it their only option for tickets? Nope. They can always just buy single game tickets and avoid the SBL completely. Will a family of 4 who is used to spending $2000 for season tickets suddenly be on the hook for $49,600 as in your example. Not a chance in hell.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I hear what you are saying - I really do.

    Your math is a bit off though. Actually a lot off.

    You also assigned 1/10 of $10000 to each ticket. It should have been 1/10 of $2500 for each. That is a $7500 per ticket swing, and that affects the price more than a little bit.

    The average ticket price is not $50, and has not been for a very long time. In 2009, the average ticket price was $73.23. In 2011, the average ticket price was $75. I could not find last year's average, but I know they did not go down. This year, according to the Vikings, the average ticket price went up around 3% from last year. I think a conservative estimate would be that the average ticket price is $77.

    Your family of four who had tickets for $50 each are not the average - nor will they have the average SBL of $2500 per seat. They will have an SBL of anywhere from $0 - $1000. And the Vikings stated that season ticket owners will have the right to buy tickets in the new stadium in the same general location as their tickets in the 'dome, so they won't get stuck spending more.

    Assuming ticket prices go up 20% (as in your scenario), they will cost $60 plus 1/10 of the $1000 SBL fee per game, which is $160 per game. Spread out over 5 years, as in your example, this ends up being closer to $80 per seat per game. Much more manageable.

    So if we are going to talk about the average ticket owner, let's use average numbers and average prices:

    Current: $70 per ticket (including 10% season ticket owner discount).
    Price for 1 year with SBLs and 20% increase: $84 + $2500/10 = $334 per game.
    Price for 5 years with SBLs and 20% increase: $84 + $2500/10/5 = $134 per game.


    Is the overall cost higher for ticket owners? Of course. Is it their only option for tickets? Nope. They can always just buy single game tickets and avoid the SBL completely. Will a family of 4 who is used to spending $2000 for season tickets suddenly be on the hook for $49,600 as in your example. Not a chance in hell.
    My math is not off. Your assumptions are. I'm breaking it down for an average cost per week for a family of 4. The average PSL is $2,500 or $10,000 for those 4 tickets. Divide that by 10 games & a family of 4 would be paying $1,000 per week for the PSL's if they keep them for 1 year. Whether you add $70/seat or $84/seat doesn't matter much, it would still cost a family of 4 either $1,280/week or $1,336/week to watch the game instead of the $240 or $336/week.

    That's based on a family paying the average price/ticket that coincides with the average PSL cost of $2,500. You're stating that the average PSL cost is far less than what's being reported. At your $1,000 max., that's 2-1/2 times less than what's being reported as the average PSL.

    Using your last numbers it's basically identical to what I originally stated. The only thing you changes was the average price from $60 to $84.

    So, for that family of 4, it would cost them $1,334 for a Sunday game with a PSL if they had them for a year as opposed to $334 if there was no PSL.

    If they kept them for 5 years it would cost them $536 for a Sunday game with a PSL if they had them for a year as opposed to $334 if there was no PSL. $200 more each week. That's significant to a lot of people.

    No where in my example did I say a family of 4 would be on the hook for $49,600. I'm not sure how you even dreamed that up.

    I couldn't have been more clearer when I stated it would be $12,400 per season for 4 tickets if they kept the tickets 1 year.

    For that same family of 4 who wants those same average seats in the new stadium, it will probably run them $60 each plus the 1/10th of the $10,000 PSL fees which would total $1,240 per game.

    There are a lot of people out there who could afford $200/game, $2,000/season for 4 tickets, but I'm willing to bet there aren't nearly as many who can afford to fork out $1,240/game, $12,400/season.
    $60 each or $240 for 4, plus 1/10th of $10,00 ($2500 x 4) = $1,240/week, $12,400/season for a family of 4.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    The last time was 2005. I know because I was on the waiting list until then.
    So you were turned away and couldn't buy season tickets in 2004 and prior years?

    They put me on one of those "waiting lists" more than once, but they always called me back with several options a few weeks later.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    My math is not off. Your assumptions are. I'm breaking it down for an average cost per week for a family of 4. The average PSL is $2,500 or $10,000 for those 4 tickets. Divide that by 10 games & a family of 4 would be paying $1,000 per week for the PSL's if they keep them for 1 year. Whether you add $70/seat or $84/seat doesn't matter much, it would still cost a family of 4 either $1,280/week or $1,336/week to watch the game instead of the $240 or $336/week.

    That's based on a family paying the average price/ticket that coincides with the average PSL cost of $2,500. You're stating that the average PSL cost is far less than what's being reported. At your $1,000 max., that's 2-1/2 times less than what's being reported as the average PSL.

    Using your last numbers it's basically identical to what I originally stated. The only thing you changes was the average price from $60 to $84.

    So, for that family of 4, it would cost them $1,334 for a Sunday game with a PSL if they had them for a year as opposed to $334 if there was no PSL.

    If they kept them for 5 years it would cost them $536 for a Sunday game with a PSL if they had them for a year as opposed to $334 if there was no PSL. $200 more each week. That's significant to a lot of people.

    No where in my example did I say a family of 4 would be on the hook for $49,600. I'm not sure how you even dreamed that up.

    I couldn't have been more clearer when I stated it would be $12,400 per season for 4 tickets if they kept the tickets 1 year.



    $60 each or $240 for 4, plus 1/10th of $10,00 ($2500 x 4) = $1,240/week, $12,400/season for a family of 4.
    I see where we were mixed up. It wasn't clear to me that you were saying all four tickets. But I see what you were trying to say now.

    Regardless, my point is the same - it doesn't work to look at a single year and use that as a baseline for ticket cost. If they were only going to keep the tickets for a single year, then they would be idiots to do it through season tickets. Much cheaper to buy single game tickets for that year, and avoid both the SBL and the pre-season games.

    Nearly half of the seats have SBLs of $1000 or less, so your family of four will still be able to afford tickets. Plus there are a couple of payment options available. Even if they are in the $2500 range and didn't want to move, it won't be an extra $200 per week - it will be more like $50 per month to pay off $10k over 5 years. While still significant, the perspective changes more than a little when you realize that the SBLs are NOT part of the weekly ticket price.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #28
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    In any case, PSLs make going to NFL games much more difficult for the masses. Soon, the prime tickets will be only for the wealthy and corporations. Pay to play, or watch live, is where monopoly major league sports are heading. This is where our society is going.

    Yet, these monopolies do not often pay for the stadiums they charge these fees for. They take subsidies from the masses and then bar the masses from attending by using price segregation just to line the owners already deep pockets. These are sad times.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Nearly half of the seats have SBLs of $1000 or less, so your family of four will still be able to afford tickets. Plus there are a couple of payment options available. Even if they are in the $2500 range and didn't want to move, it won't be an extra $200 per week - it will be more like $50 per month to pay off $10k over 5 years. While still significant, the perspective changes more than a little when you realize that the SBLs are NOT part of the weekly ticket price.
    If the Vikings are giving out $10,000, 5 year payment plans that are only $50 month then people would be fools to pay the $10K PSL's up front.

    50 x 12 x 5 = 3,000

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    If the Vikings are giving out $10,000, 5 year payment plans that are only $50 month then people would be fools to pay the $10K PSL's up front.

    50 x 12 x 5 = 3,000
    Can I use the Vikings for my mortgage? That is a good deal!

    Actually, this is for up front stadium money and likely can be sold by the SBL's owner, so there is a price to get in and some sort of cash out. It is like a timeshare for seating. If someone has the money up front, it is no big deal. For many of us, other priorities like college for kids, automobiles, the mortgage, and home maintenance are a priority over and couple of SBLs.

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