Thread: Karl Dunbar first to fall

Originally Posted by Caine

Another element left out is that Ray played when we had the Wall intact, Robison stepped in when the Wall was broken. In short, Ray played on a better line.

Robison had a "breakout" season from the standpoint that he didn't drop off production at the position. Is he a 1st Tier DE? No. He's a quality guy - like Ray was - who benefits from playing on a line with Kevin and Jared.

But the debate for the past 2 years has been about whether or not Ray was an "Elite" DE. His 33 combined tackles and 3.5 sacks are a far cry from his 2008 and 2009 numbers....when he played with the Wall. You know, that elite D-Line that Ray's supporters claimed did NOT influence his numbers or his impact.

Obviously, playing in Atlanta, with Babineaux, Peters, and Abraham, has allowed Ray to step up and......


...well....



I guess he sort of dropped off. Hmmm. Who saw THAT coming?

(Most of us)

So, is Robison "Elite"? No. But he maintained the production of the position in his first year as a STARTER...and THAT is significant.

Caine

Lets not forget Robison played on the DL during the year when JA almost set the NFL sack record.

You may want to dismiss that as insignificant & claim the DL was much better last year, but with JA getting a lot more attention, Robison should have had a better year.

And unless Robison plays in Atlanta next to with Babineaux, Peters, and Abraham, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, Robison maintained the production of the position, but we didn't pay that kind of ching to simply maintain the same level of production.

We got similar results from two different players. The difference being one was labeled as a POS/mediocre & the other was heralded as having a breakout season & being significantly better.

Originally Posted by singersp

Lets not forget Robison played on the DL during the year when JA almost set the NFL sack record.

You may want to dismiss that as insignificant & claim the DL was much better last year, but with JA getting a lot more attention, Robison should have had a better year.

And unless Robison plays in Atlanta next to with Babineaux, Peters, and Abraham, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, Robison maintained the production of the position, but we didn't pay that kind of ching to simply maintain the same level of production.

We got similar results from two different players. The difference being one was labeled as a POS/mediocre & the other was heralded as having a breakout season & being significantly better.

I think you're exaggerating a bit there.

Ray was labeled a POS when he stated he wouldn't play in Minnesota. Ray made his own bed with the fans. No one said his PLAY was crap - we all (with a few exceptions) stated he was a GOOD DE playing on a great line. Nothing untrue about that statement.

Robison is considered to have had a "breakout" season because he started for the first time, and his production was at the same level as Ray's was. Doesn't make Brian an "Elite" DE....but compared to his previous years, this IS a break out season for him...he's "broken out of the reliever's role".

As for the Allen individual effort effect - I don't dismiss it as much as I think it's simply that, Allen having a great INDIVIDUAL season, despite the failings of our collective D-line. Let's face it, without the Wall, our Line was far less intimidating. Teams were able to run on us this season - and straight up the middle. Something we haven't seen in awhile. That speaks to our DT play.

In the end, BR stepped up. And, given the opportunity in Atlanta, RE did not. Sort of supports the accolades on the one hand, and the criticisms on the other...

Caine

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

We don't have the LB corps to run the T2. One way or the other the group has to be re tooled. Staying with this scheme and those LB's just keeps us with a terrible defense.





We also don't have a WarPig DT for the T2. That is a wash.




.

There is a challenge no matter what defense they run. The real question is, when facing GB and Detroit and Chicago 2x a year, would you rather have a flexible defense that can challenge their WR's, mask where the pressure is coming from, and have the athletic personnel on the field who can go toe to toe with the elite offenses or a passive zone coverage that the opposing QB's pick apart at will no matter how many great players you have on the front 4.

If you prefer the latter then I guess we have different philosophies.




But getting torched by the high powered offenses that are a product of the rule changes does?

Getting torched is not what i am asking for from our D. Green Bay runs a 3-4 and their pass D was the worst D in the league in terms of yardage given up. Masking coverages and zone pressure is not soley owned by 3-4 schemes. The Saints play an aggressive 4-3 D. We can do the same with the right coordinator.

What I am against is blowing up our best defensive unit: the D-Line. We led the league in sacks. Our D line with Jared Allen is freaking good. I don't doubt that we lack talent on our defense. I would rather play a more traditional 4-3 with mixes of zone and man pressures, but we should build on Dline's success not dismantle it. We should move Greenway back to the Will position and get some help at CB, LB and Safety in the offseason.

I agree that our D can't hold up against GB's 5 receiver sets. But it is not because we have 4 down lineman instead of 3 in our base defense. The reason is because we dont have the DBs to cover hardly anyone. Shit, half the time we are running nickel and dime defenses against them because of their spread sets anyway.

I can agree the T2 scheme is not working for us. But I can't get on board with the 3-4 alignment to be our defensive savior.

Originally Posted by seaniemck7

Getting torched is not what i am asking for from our D. Green Bay runs a 3-4 and their pass D was the worst D in the league in terms of yardage given up. Masking coverages and zone pressure is not soley owned by 3-4 schemes. The Saints play an aggressive 4-3 D. We can do the same with the right coordinator.

You make fair points and to be honest with you I would not be opposed to us having a 4-3 as you describe but it looks to me like Fred was attempting to do just that and Frazier pulled the plug on him.

What I am against is blowing up our best defensive unit: the D-Line. We led the league in sacks.

Really what you are saying is JA is our best player. He accounted for nearly 50% of those sacks but as far as the rest of the unit goes they are far from elite. Truthfully I am really liking what I am seeing from Griffin and I think in the 3-4 he might just be a devastating player. Whether he coud do as well in the 4-3 I would like to find out. That being said we still have no NT of any quality, Robison is nice but nothing fancy and KW is in decline.

Our D line with Jared Allen is freaking good

.

And after him the talent level drops off significantly.

I don't doubt that we lack talent on our defense. I would rather play a more traditional 4-3 with mixes of zone and man pressures, but we should build on Dline's success not dismantle it. We should move Greenway back to the Will position and get some help at CB, LB and Safety in the offseason.

To be honest with you, at his salary we need a hell of a lot more from Greenway than being a Will LB. They are paying him MLB money and if he can't play that role we overpaid. EJ is pretty much done, especially if we run the zone clusterfuck and Erin should just be Paul Allens 9-noon sidekick permanently. There isn't a one in that group that is made to play the 4-3 at a high level.

I agree that our D can't hold up against GB's 5 receiver sets. But it is not because we have 4 down lineman instead of 3 in our base defense. The reason is because we dont have the DBs to cover hardly anyone.

We don't have the DB's, We don't have the LB's and we don't have 50% of the D line actually.

Shit, half the time we are running nickel and dime defenses against them because of their spread sets anyway.

Which is where having more athletic LB's and the DB's already on the field instead of switching personnel is an advantage.

can agree the T2 scheme is not working for us. But I can't get on board with the 3-4 alignment to be our defensive savior.

Well, if it isn't going to be a 3-4 then you just need to be content with the same T2 that we have been getting torched with because those are the realistic choices. Frazier has already made the statement that an aggressive, man to man 4-3 is not going to happen with him in charge.

Well, if it isn't going to be a 3-4 then you just need to be content with the same T2 that we have been getting torched with because those are the realistic choices. Frazier has already made the statement that an aggressive, man to man 4-3 is not going to happen with him in charge

.

i think i just threw up in my mouth a little...

@michaelombardi

Jets interviewing former Vikings DL Coach Karl Dunbar for a un-named position. Changes happening at Florham Park

Originally Posted by skum

@michaelombardi

Jets interviewing former Vikings DL Coach Karl Dunbar for a un-named position. Changes happening at Florham Park

I would not be surprised to see Peyton Manning with the Jets next year either.

Originally Posted by singersp

Lets not forget Robison played on the DL during the year when JA almost set the NFL sack record.

You may want to dismiss that as insignificant & claim the DL was much better last year, but with JA getting a lot more attention, Robison should have had a better year.
And unless Robison plays in Atlanta next to with Babineaux, Peters, and Abraham, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, Robison maintained the production of the position, but we didn't pay that kind of ching to simply maintain the same level of production.

We got similar results from two different players. The difference being one was labeled as a POS/mediocre & the other was heralded as having a breakout season & being significantly better.

Or you could say Jared almost set the sack record because Ray was replaced by Robison

Originally Posted by marshallvike

Or you could say Jared almost set the sack record because Ray was replaced by Robison

+1

Wow, it's really starting to look like Wilf is trying to tank this team. The only guy that did his job in this organization is the only guy to get fired so far? Everyone else was moved to a new position or was just given a different title? Amazing! 3-13 but no significant changes? Where's the official fire Zygi Wilf thread?