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  1. #111
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Here's the thing. There seemed to be only one team interested in Ray. It was the Eagles. However, at least to this point they didn't go near him with the 1st round tender. I've heard of no offers or any other interest. If there were more teams interested maybe the price goes up. Maybe his salary goes up. That is the way the NFL works. The more interest, the more money. If the money is still there then he would most likely be offered more.
    Truth of the matter is, there was very little interest paid by any team with respect to any of the first year contract guys. Its almost like some of our conspiracy cats on here should be chanting how all the owners got together and said, lets keep them all at this low scale so that we can get some reps out of them at a bargain basement discount.

    Trust me, if this was in the old agreement arena, Ray would have had several teams trying to sign him.


    I can't believe you are blaming players now. If the players are now at fault then why should Edwards (a player) be pissed? After all they all voted for the NFLPA to vouch for them. If they were too young to be a part of that vote they still signed the contract on the dotted line to be a part of that union. Now he needs to live with it or go seek other employment.
    Because this decision was made by a group of players long before he was part of the process.

    Truth of the matter is, there was very little interest paid by any team with respect to any of the first year contract guys. Its almost like some of our conspiracy cats on here should be chanting how all the owners got together and said, lets keep them all at this low scale so that we can get some reps out of them at a bargain basement discount.

    Trust me, if this was in the old agreement arena, Ray would have had several teams trying to sign him.
    That is the truth and again why I say the market is low right now. I couldn't have worded it better myself. I don't know about the conspiracy thing but maybe it's true. Whether it is or isn't the market for Ray is what it is and the salary he was offered is what it should be.

    Because this decision was made by a group of players long before he was part of the process
    It was and he still signed a contract knowing this. Again, no one held a gun to his head telling him to sign a contract with the NFL. He chose to play for the NFL and have the NFLPA represent him. Therefore, who's fault is it? NFLPA? Maybe. Who signed the contract? Ray. He wasn't complaining when he signed the contract. He needs to live with the rules or go elsewhere. What happened in previous years means nothing for what is happening now. He is still making damn good money. He still received a 127% raise from last year. I know you like to throw those unofficial stats out so go back and look at them. Are those stats from 2009 127% better than what he did in 2008?
    Interesting you ask that.

    Since he signed a 4 year deal, I don't think its fair to only look at the last year, look at all of them.

    First three seasons, he averaged:
    31 tackles
    4.3 sacks

    This season he got 48 tackles and 8.5 sacks, thats a 35% increase in tackles and a 97% increase in tackles based on his average over three years.

    However, they gave him the contract based on him being a rookie, and his success thus far, and on his rookie season he got, 10 tackles and 3 sacks in 15 games

    So yes, his production has increased over 127%
    Based upon his 3 year average, going from 31 to 48 tackles is only a 55% increase.

    Since his rookie contract was based upon a projection of what he would accomplish over his first four years, you can't simply quote rookie stats as the baseline and look at his 4th year in comparrison.

    Further, how much of the increase in stats is due to increased playing time? He was behind Udeze for awhile there.

    Does that mean we OVER PAID for him as a rookie, and that we should recoup our losses?

    No, it doesn't. It simply means that we made a quality signing 4 years ago. Both the team and the player benefitted from the deal.

    Now Ray wants to forget that HE benefitted as well, and play the "I want to get paid what I'm worth" game...the same one a LOT of players play in their "contract" year...right before they VANISH.

    Bottom line is that Ray has the misfortune of being FA eligible in an uncapped year - and through no fault of his own, he has an additional year as a RFA. Does this somehow give him license to whine and cry about how unfair life is? Is he somehow being cheated? Is he being unfairly taken advantage of?

    The answer is NO, he is NOT. He still stands to make a considerable sum of money. Sure it might be less than the MIGHT have made, but it's still a considerable sum. And, according to the RULES, that's how it worked out this time around.

    So, again, Ray can choose to pout and have a hissy...or he can man up and play football and PROVE he's worth more money. After all, he's put up solid numbers the past two season...does anyone think he WON'T get paid if he keeps improving?

    Caine

  2. #112
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Here's the thing. There seemed to be only one team interested in Ray. It was the Eagles. However, at least to this point they didn't go near him with the 1st round tender. I've heard of no offers or any other interest. If there were more teams interested maybe the price goes up. Maybe his salary goes up. That is the way the NFL works. The more interest, the more money. If the money is still there then he would most likely be offered more.
    Truth of the matter is, there was very little interest paid by any team with respect to any of the first year contract guys. Its almost like some of our conspiracy cats on here should be chanting how all the owners got together and said, lets keep them all at this low scale so that we can get some reps out of them at a bargain basement discount.

    Trust me, if this was in the old agreement arena, Ray would have had several teams trying to sign him.


    I can't believe you are blaming players now. If the players are now at fault then why should Edwards (a player) be pissed? After all they all voted for the NFLPA to vouch for them. If they were too young to be a part of that vote they still signed the contract on the dotted line to be a part of that union. Now he needs to live with it or go seek other employment.
    Because this decision was made by a group of players long before he was part of the process.

    Truth of the matter is, there was very little interest paid by any team with respect to any of the first year contract guys. Its almost like some of our conspiracy cats on here should be chanting how all the owners got together and said, lets keep them all at this low scale so that we can get some reps out of them at a bargain basement discount.

    Trust me, if this was in the old agreement arena, Ray would have had several teams trying to sign him.
    That is the truth and again why I say the market is low right now. I couldn't have worded it better myself. I don't know about the conspiracy thing but maybe it's true. Whether it is or isn't the market for Ray is what it is and the salary he was offered is what it should be.

    Because this decision was made by a group of players long before he was part of the process
    It was and he still signed a contract knowing this. Again, no one held a gun to his head telling him to sign a contract with the NFL. He chose to play for the NFL and have the NFLPA represent him. Therefore, who's fault is it? NFLPA? Maybe. Who signed the contract? Ray. He wasn't complaining when he signed the contract. He needs to live with the rules or go elsewhere. What happened in previous years means nothing for what is happening now. He is still making damn good money. He still received a 127% raise from last year. I know you like to throw those unofficial stats out so go back and look at them. Are those stats from 2009 127% better than what he did in 2008?
    Interesting you ask that.

    Since he signed a 4 year deal, I don't think its fair to only look at the last year, look at all of them.

    First three seasons, he averaged:
    31 tackles
    4.3 sacks

    This season he got 48 tackles and 8.5 sacks, thats a 35% increase in tackles and a 97% increase in tackles based on his average over three years.

    However, they gave him the contract based on him being a rookie, and his success thus far, and on his rookie season he got, 10 tackles and 3 sacks in 15 games

    So yes, his production has increased over 127%
    How so? I guess you don't think the fact he started only 2 games his rookie season, he started 11 games in 2007 (he was banned 4 games because of banned substance), he started 15 games in 2008 and 16 in 2009 has anything to do with those numbers his rookie year? All commensurate with his pay increasing. He received 127% increase from 2009 - 2010. That is what I am talking about.

    127% better? Give me a break. I don't think so. Are you to tell me he made the same amount every year from his first year? That is not usually how contracts work. It is perfectly fair to look at 2008 and compare it to 2009 since those were two full years of play. Did he start his rookie season? No he didn't. He played in 15 games but his playing time was extremely limited.

    If you want to skew numbers I can do the same. The fact is he did not do 127% better from 2008 - 2009 and you and Marrdro were saying he wasn't getting paid commensurate with his ability. Therefore, in order to prove that you would have to prove to me he did 127% better his two FULL seasons by comparison. It didn't happen.

    Bottom line - he signed a contract knowing the NFLPA was representing him. He is receiving a raise commensurate with his ability that he has shown thus far. He is complaining about it. He is making the money the market is calling for.

    I also want to point out the whole comparison to Taylor. Now that i think about it isn't JT a LBer? Again, has nothing to o with Edwards' situation.

  3. #113
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    Overlord wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Here's the thing. There seemed to be only one team interested in Ray. It was the Eagles. However, at least to this point they didn't go near him with the 1st round tender. I've heard of no offers or any other interest. If there were more teams interested maybe the price goes up. Maybe his salary goes up. That is the way the NFL works. The more interest, the more money. If the money is still there then he would most likely be offered more.
    Truth of the matter is, there was very little interest paid by any team with respect to any of the first year contract guys. Its almost like some of our conspiracy cats on here should be chanting how all the owners got together and said, lets keep them all at this low scale so that we can get some reps out of them at a bargain basement discount.

    Trust me, if this was in the old agreement arena, Ray would have had several teams trying to sign him.
    There's no conspiracy. It's just the way the system is set up.

    From any Teams' perspective, why would they extend these guys that are worth a lot of money if they don't have to? Make the player carry the risk of injury or drop in performance for another year while you pay them a relatively low amount.

    The fact is that no other team is going to want to pay a good but not elite player market value and give up a first round pick for him, so the tender is safe. Not because of some back room deal, but because it doesn't make sense for the organization. You might do it for a Jared Allen, because you don't have many chances to acquire a player that good.

    For Ray, being paid $2.5 million is low. His market value as an unrestricted free agent would probably be around $7 million/year based on some recent guys with not identical but similar production (Justin Smith (SF), Antwan Odom (CIN), and Chris Canty (NYG) are the guys I'm thinking of). Maybe more important for him, he would be looking at guaranteed money in the $10-20 million range. But what can he do about it? Nothing really.

    So the Vikings get a steal this year. They got a steal on Sidney Rice last year and will this year too. That's how young players not picked in the top 10 are paid.

    And Ray gets to sit out and wait to protest, but in the end he'll get paid less than his performance indicates this season and probably get an extension for big money sometime in the next year.
    A lot of the numbers you are coming up with are pure speculation so I won't argue or debate that. I do agree he would probably get more money if he was a UFA. The problem is he is not. He is a RFA. Plain and simple. It is how the agreement is.

    The NFL are the ones that devised the pay scale for the FA tenders. In other words per their assessment that is the MARKET VALUE. Ray will be getting paid a market value of what his team is willing to tender him at. It is the market this year. If it were last year or even maybe next year he may get more. As it is, he isn't NOW. Too bad! If he doesn't like it again, there are choices. Don't play in the NFL where he is restricted. He is getting a 127% raise which is pretty damn good compared to most of the examples shown previously by jmcdon00. It isn't like Ray Edwards is much better than these players if at all.

  4. #114
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    I am curious if anyone knows the going price for a CB given a 1st round tender. Reason why I ask is the Vikes just signed Lito Sheppard for 1 year and #$2M. In other words less than Ray Edwards is making and Lito he is a 2 time probowler.

  5. #115
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    ejmat wrote:
    Overlord wrote:
    There's no conspiracy. It's just the way the system is set up.

    From any Teams' perspective, why would they extend these guys that are worth a lot of money if they don't have to? Make the player carry the risk of injury or drop in performance for another year while you pay them a relatively low amount.

    The fact is that no other team is going to want to pay a good but not elite player market value and give up a first round pick for him, so the tender is safe. Not because of some back room deal, but because it doesn't make sense for the organization. You might do it for a Jared Allen, because you don't have many chances to acquire a player that good.

    For Ray, being paid $2.5 million is low. His market value as an unrestricted free agent would probably be around $7 million/year based on some recent guys with not identical but similar production (Justin Smith (SF), Antwan Odom (CIN), and Chris Canty (NYG) are the guys I'm thinking of). Maybe more important for him, he would be looking at guaranteed money in the $10-20 million range. But what can he do about it? Nothing really.

    So the Vikings get a steal this year. They got a steal on Sidney Rice last year and will this year too. That's how young players not picked in the top 10 are paid.

    And Ray gets to sit out and wait to protest, but in the end he'll get paid less than his performance indicates this season and probably get an extension for big money sometime in the next year.
    A lot of the numbers you are coming up with are pure speculation so I won't argue or debate that. I do agree he would probably get more money if he was a UFA.
    Depends on what you mean by 'speculation'. They aren't numbers just pulled randomly out of the air. It's based on comparisons to other players and what they got as unrestricted free agents. I obviously am not back from the future with hard numbers on Edwards next contract, but I stand by those numbers as reasonable based on what other players have received.

    The problem is he is not. He is a RFA. Plain and simple. It is how the agreement is.
    Absolutely correct. And it doesn't make sense for the team to give him a big extension in view of this fact. They are doing what is best for the team according to the rules and agreements they are faced with.

    The NFL are the ones that devised the pay scale for the FA tenders. In other words per their assessment that is the MARKET VALUE. Ray will be getting paid a market value of what his team is willing to tender him at. It is the market this year.
    I have a hard time calling it a 'market value'. It's a pay scale. It's been agreed upon in the labor agreement, and the team and players are bound by that.

    If it were last year or even maybe next year he may get more. As it is, he isn't NOW. Too bad! If he doesn't like it again, there are choices. Don't play in the NFL where he is restricted.
    There really aren't a lot of realistic choices in terms of playing football somewhere else. That said, he does have some options, including deciding when to sign his tender and when to participate in offseason activities. My understanding is that if he hasn't signed his tender, he isn't under contract, and isn't obligated to show up to anything. That's one of his options and he appears to be taking advantage of it.

    I like the way the Vikings appear to be handling it, which is very professionally. They understand that these players are probably as upset at the labor union as the team, and that they are simply doing what they are entitled to by refusing to sign the tender until the middle of June (or whatever the deadline is). When Edwards does show up, they won't have ticked him off and if they want to keep him long term they'll work on an extension. There really isn't any point in being mad at someone for wanting to make more money as long as he is fulfilling his obligations.

    He is getting a 127% raise which is pretty damn good compared to most of the examples shown previously by jmcdon00. It isn't like Ray Edwards is much better than these players if at all.
    He's not going to starve, but players in his position - the guys that would have been unrestricted free agents - are probably the biggest loser in this whole labor negotiation process to this point. Given that, I haven't heard him say anything so offensive or ridiculous to make me care more about him being a jerk than about him being a good football player.

    ejmat wrote:
    I am curious if anyone knows the going price for a CB given a 1st round tender. Reason why I ask is the Vikes just signed Lito Sheppard for 1 year and #$2M. In other words less than Ray Edwards is making and Lito he is a 2 time probowler.
    I believe the tender values are identical for any position.

    As an unrestricted free agent though, Lito Sheppard was paid on his perceived value going forward. He's basically a nickel or dime corner based on his past few years of play, regardless of his earlier success.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  6. #116
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    Overlord wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Overlord wrote:
    There's no conspiracy. It's just the way the system is set up.

    From any Teams' perspective, why would they extend these guys that are worth a lot of money if they don't have to? Make the player carry the risk of injury or drop in performance for another year while you pay them a relatively low amount.

    The fact is that no other team is going to want to pay a good but not elite player market value and give up a first round pick for him, so the tender is safe. Not because of some back room deal, but because it doesn't make sense for the organization. You might do it for a Jared Allen, because you don't have many chances to acquire a player that good.

    For Ray, being paid $2.5 million is low. His market value as an unrestricted free agent would probably be around $7 million/year based on some recent guys with not identical but similar production (Justin Smith (SF), Antwan Odom (CIN), and Chris Canty (NYG) are the guys I'm thinking of). Maybe more important for him, he would be looking at guaranteed money in the $10-20 million range. But what can he do about it? Nothing really.

    So the Vikings get a steal this year. They got a steal on Sidney Rice last year and will this year too. That's how young players not picked in the top 10 are paid.

    And Ray gets to sit out and wait to protest, but in the end he'll get paid less than his performance indicates this season and probably get an extension for big money sometime in the next year.
    A lot of the numbers you are coming up with are pure speculation so I won't argue or debate that. I do agree he would probably get more money if he was a UFA.
    Depends on what you mean by 'speculation'. They aren't numbers just pulled randomly out of the air. It's based on comparisons to other players and what they got as unrestricted free agents. I obviously am not back from the future with hard numbers on Edwards next contract, but I stand by those numbers as reasonable based on what other players have received.

    The problem is he is not. He is a RFA. Plain and simple. It is how the agreement is.
    Absolutely correct. And it doesn't make sense for the team to give him a big extension in view of this fact. They are doing what is best for the team according to the rules and agreements they are faced with.

    The NFL are the ones that devised the pay scale for the FA tenders. In other words per their assessment that is the MARKET VALUE. Ray will be getting paid a market value of what his team is willing to tender him at. It is the market this year.
    I have a hard time calling it a 'market value'. It's a pay scale. It's been agreed upon in the labor agreement, and the team and players are bound by that.

    If it were last year or even maybe next year he may get more. As it is, he isn't NOW. Too bad! If he doesn't like it again, there are choices. Don't play in the NFL where he is restricted.
    There really aren't a lot of realistic choices in terms of playing football somewhere else. That said, he does have some options, including deciding when to sign his tender and when to participate in offseason activities. My understanding is that if he hasn't signed his tender, he isn't under contract, and isn't obligated to show up to anything. That's one of his options and he appears to be taking advantage of it.

    I like the way the Vikings appear to be handling it, which is very professionally. They understand that these players are probably as upset at the labor union as the team, and that they are simply doing what they are entitled to by refusing to sign the tender until the middle of June (or whatever the deadline is). When Edwards does show up, they won't have ticked him off and if they want to keep him long term they'll work on an extension. There really isn't any point in being mad at someone for wanting to make more money as long as he is fulfilling his obligations.

    He is getting a 127% raise which is pretty damn good compared to most of the examples shown previously by jmcdon00. It isn't like Ray Edwards is much better than these players if at all.
    He's not going to starve, but players in his position - the guys that would have been unrestricted free agents - are probably the biggest loser in this whole labor negotiation process to this point. Given that, I haven't heard him say anything so offensive or ridiculous to make me care more about him being a jerk than about him being a good football player.

    ejmat wrote:
    I am curious if anyone knows the going price for a CB given a 1st round tender. Reason why I ask is the Vikes just signed Lito Sheppard for 1 year and #$2M. In other words less than Ray Edwards is making and Lito he is a 2 time probowler.
    I believe the tender values are identical for any position.

    As an unrestricted free agent though, Lito Sheppard was paid on his perceived value going forward. He's basically a nickel or dime corner based on his past few years of play, regardless of his earlier success.
    Very fair post. I may not agree with everything but still a fair post. The one thing I will point out as far as Lito's play for the past couple of years. 2 years ago he lost his job to Asante Samuel. Not because of his play but because of the chance to get Samuel. Last year he played with the Jets and was picked on all year because QBs were scared to go to Revis side. He still played pretty well regardless. The Jets cast him off as he didn't play well because he is not as good as Revis. He had a lot of ground to cover.

    The only DE that was paid well this year from FA was peppers. Surely we cannot compare Edwards to Peppers. He is no where's near as good. So to choose a number is basically pulling random numbers out of the air. Only because there is nothing ot compare it to.

    The team is taking advantage of the situation. No doubt about it. Just like the players such as Bobby Wade and Shiancoe at the time took advantage of being overpaid because of the market value. It is the way the NFL and most organizations work. Salaries are based not only upon ability and history but the market as well. That is the point I am trying to make to those supporting his whine. You're right in that he hasn't said anything that ridiculous. Other than his Goodell comment in that he should make more than the Commissioner :huh:

    Bottom line here is Ray is under contract of the NFL. He signed when things were good. Now, like many other companies, things are not that good. He received a 127% raise from last year. Hardly anything to complain about given the fact he hasn't proven to be a superstar. He's proven to be a solid NFL player. Nothing more and nothing less. Hence, the 1st round tender and the $2.5M salary. Market value.

  7. #117
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    He's not calling press conferences and boohooing. He was asked how he feels about something and answered it.

  8. #118
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    RoneG wrote:
    He's not calling press conferences and boohooing. He was asked how he feels about something and answered it.
    Sometimes things are better being left unsaid. So the comment he said about Goodell shouldn't make the money he does as the Commissioner was something he answered?

    I am sure no one asked Ray Edwards, "Ray, how does it make you feel that the Commissioner makes $9 a year and you are the one down in the trenches making ONLY $2.5M?

    No. That is a comment Ray Edwards came up with all on his own. There are no excuses as to how he is acting. Holding out till June is only hurting the team. It doesn't hurt the leagueor the NFLPA. It hurts the team. You know, the organization that Ray supposedly has nothiing against?

  9. #119
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    ejmat wrote:

    There are no excuses as to how he is acting. Holding out till June is only hurting the team. It doesn't hurt the league or the NFLPA. It hurts the team. You know, the organization that Ray supposedly has nothing against?
    *sarcasm on *
    then again when you're an elite all-pro like Edwards then you can take time off as there's nothing that the coaches can teach you :laugh:
    * sarcasm off *
    Time spent annoying a Packer fan is never time wasted...


  10. #120
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    Re:Is it just me or is Edwards a real jackass

    AngloVike wrote:
    ejmat wrote:

    There are no excuses as to how he is acting. Holding out till June is only hurting the team. It doesn't hurt the league or the NFLPA. It hurts the team. You know, the organization that Ray supposedly has nothing against?
    *sarcasm on *
    then again when you're an elite all-pro like Edwards then you can take time off as there's nothing that the coaches can teach you :laugh:
    * sarcasm off *
    LOL. I can't argue that point Anglo.

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