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  1. #131
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro, why punish yourself like this?

    1: I don't ignore your illusory "points" - I have refuted them on numerous occassions. Why you keep attempting to foist them off as valid is beyond comprehension. We have shown REPEATEDLY that the differences between the 08 and 09 rosters weren't that significant.

    A: The only injury that affected Jackson was Rice. Favre was affected by an unhealthy Berrian. That's a wash.
    LOL refuted.....Love it.

    Both Rice and BB were injured the whole season. Last year Rice was healthy the whole season and BB was only digned early on.

    Truth of the matter is, BB was used alot in the short stuff were he didn't really fit and still did a good job.


    B: You talk about Rice's development - do you honestly believe that Rice has that good of a year with Jackson under center? Do you think his produictivity is even CLOSE to what is was with Favre? I don't. Favre has made a career of making good receivers look great, and average receivers look good. He did it time and time again in Green Bay. Why is it so hard to believe that MAYBE he did it again here? MAYBE, Favre drew it out of Rice? Of course, were youto admit that, you'd have to choke on the heaping piles of caacaa you've been spewing about Favre, so I can see why you'd prefer to stay in denial...Refuted.
    Again you fail to mention that El Syd was hindered for the whole season which severly degraded his ability to be 100% effective that season.

    Did the Noodle help in his development? Yes, I readily admit that, but I have listed reception after reception were Rice also made the Noodle look pretty damn good.



    C: Harvin was a rookie - Wade a proven possession guy. Do you - again - bnelieve taht Harvin would have been OROY had Jackson been throwing to him? Do you think Jackson could bring Harvin's talents screaming to the forefront? Because I know Jackson really brought out the talents of .....well ......ummmm ......Gus Frerotte!!!

    Again...refuted.
    First, you know my stance on individual awards. They are all garbage.

    In the end, would he have had as good of a year? I agree, probably not, but he sure didn't hold the Noodle back. Seems to me the young lad was a prime target if El Syd wasn't covered.

    My guess, he had the skills to get open regardless of who was under Center and would have seen his share of throws.

    D: You still trying to sell the idea that Sully was head and shoulders better than Birk? My eye!! Sully was good...MAYBE close to as good as Birk the season before...but Sully has a bit of improving to do before he's considered the next Matt Birk. And, FYI, the turnstile was still there...Favre just got rid of the ball quicker.

    REFUTED!!!
    Nope, you said "Head and Shoulders", I said graded out statistically the same or just slightly below Matt.

    Even you would have to admit that the Noodle got alot less pressure up the middle from LB'rs this year.

    E: And again you're trying to say that Loadholt was a dominant force? Not really. An upgrade over Cook? Yes...but not a HUGE upgrade...YET. Again, you're overstating the impact that Loadholt had on the line, much as you do with Sullivan. Our line wasn't really that much better in 09 than in 08, but it finally has the POTENTIAL to be. The real difference was having a QB who can snap through teh reads adn get rid of the ball versus a QB who has trademarked the "Deer in headlights" look...

    REFUTED.
    Show me were I have ever said "Dominant" together with any rook, especially an OLmen.

    I think I quantified his play as better than any RT we've had for several years. Show me a RT from the last 10 years that you would rather have than Load right now.

    F: Finally, you blathered on in the end about why Favre had his best year ever....again, it was partly the team. But I ask you themn why Jackson hasn't been a statistical force to be reckoned with with VIRTUALLY the same team (Only YOU seem to beleive that we suddenly exploded with talent in 09).
    I like how you dodge the question. Are you sure you aren't a lawyer or a politician?

    The TRUTH is, Favre is a better QB than Jackson.
    Again, 20 years vs 4 years. I hope to all that is holy in this world that he is a better QB.

    Anyone who wouldn't agree with that is just silly.

    However, coma, you didn't explain why the Noodle, who didn't take the "I'm gonna be better than I have ever been in my 20 years" pill, actually put up his best year ever and even went so far as to say several times how this was the best team he had ever been on.

    Pretty lofty comments from the Noodle. Heck, he should know, he's been on alot of teams.

    Given virtually the same tools, Favre produced something close to a statistical miracle in 09.
    Now we are in the "Virtual World".

    LOL, comeon my friend, you know that isn't gonna slide.

    Something that Jackson would likely sell his soul to do in ANY year.
    Of course he would, just like Sage would, Rodgers would, etc etc etc.

    And, in order to validate your position, answer only this question, "If Jackson were to suddenly become the starter right now, would be put up the same numbers or numbers close to what Favre did last season?"
    I wouldn't expect him to put up the Noodles numbers. Hell, I don't believe the Noodle will be able to do that agian this year, even with this team.

    But I do believe he wouldn't have to be carried by this team this year. I think he has matured enough to actually run the offense, just like he did with the 3's against the other teams 1's last year.


    If you can't deliver a convincing "Yes he would" - and we all know you can't - then your entire arguenment is shiite, mostly because you seek to discount Favre entirely as a factor. Especially in the production of Rice and Harvin.
    Nope, my entire discussion is that I expect he will play like a 4 year vet, just like I expect the Noodle will play like a 20 year vet.

    Is that shiite or reality or just my refusal to live in the "Virtual World" of Caine? :P

    The TRUTH is that were Jackson to start right now, we'd see production similar to 08's numbers. Maybe a touch better from time to time, but mostly about the same.
    I agree, but I believe they would be just a bit better than you do.

    Again, I don't "Ignore" your points Marr... in this particular instance, I flat out disagree with them.

    Caine :P
    I know, but now I know why......One of us is an optimist, the other well, ......is kindof in the virtual world....
    Given virtually
    . :P
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #132
    12purplepride28's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    I would quote the specific part but I think it would turn into a mess of a post, but @Marrdro, I don't think Rodgers would sell his soul to have that kind of a year. He had 3 less TDs and 300 more yards, and I'm sure he will only improve.

    I would love to jump in on this arguement (debate?) but I have class. Ahh, maybe later.
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  3. #133
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    12purplepride28 wrote:
    I would quote the specific part but I think it would turn into a mess of a post, but @Marrdro, I don't think Rodgers would sell his soul to have that kind of a year. He had 3 less TDs and 300 more yards, and I'm sure he will only improve.

    I would love to jump in on this arguement (debate?) but I have class. Ahh, maybe later.
    Excellent point my friend. I kindof lumped the INT's (Rodgers vs the Noodle) into that context.

    In short, he had a amazing year and justified TT for making the shift, I just think he would love to have a few of those throws back.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #134
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    12purplepride28 wrote:
    I would quote the specific part but I think it would turn into a mess of a post, but @Marrdro, I don't think Rodgers would sell his soul to have that kind of a year. He had 3 less TDs and 300 more yards, and I'm sure he will only improve.

    I would love to jump in on this arguement (debate?) but I have class. Ahh, maybe later.
    I like you.
    "You can look pretty smart if you have a knack for planning ahead. That's Ted. The Packers are in good hands." - Ron Wolf


  5. #135
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro, why punish yourself like this?

    1: I don't ignore your illusory "points" - I have refuted them on numerous occassions. Why you keep attempting to foist them off as valid is beyond comprehension. We have shown REPEATEDLY that the differences between the 08 and 09 rosters weren't that significant.

    A: The only injury that affected Jackson was Rice. Favre was affected by an unhealthy Berrian. That's a wash.
    LOL refuted.....Love it.

    Both Rice and BB were injured the whole season. Last year Rice was healthy the whole season and BB was only digned early on.

    Truth of the matter is, BB was used alot in the short stuff were he didn't really fit and still did a good job.


    B: You talk about Rice's development - do you honestly believe that Rice has that good of a year with Jackson under center? Do you think his produictivity is even CLOSE to what is was with Favre? I don't. Favre has made a career of making good receivers look great, and average receivers look good. He did it time and time again in Green Bay. Why is it so hard to believe that MAYBE he did it again here? MAYBE, Favre drew it out of Rice? Of course, were youto admit that, you'd have to choke on the heaping piles of caacaa you've been spewing about Favre, so I can see why you'd prefer to stay in denial...Refuted.
    Again you fail to mention that El Syd was hindered for the whole season which severly degraded his ability to be 100% effective that season.

    Did the Noodle help in his development? Yes, I readily admit that, but I have listed reception after reception were Rice also made the Noodle look pretty damn good.



    C: Harvin was a rookie - Wade a proven possession guy. Do you - again - bnelieve taht Harvin would have been OROY had Jackson been throwing to him? Do you think Jackson could bring Harvin's talents screaming to the forefront? Because I know Jackson really brought out the talents of .....well ......ummmm ......Gus Frerotte!!!

    Again...refuted.
    First, you know my stance on individual awards. They are all garbage.

    In the end, would he have had as good of a year? I agree, probably not, but he sure didn't hold the Noodle back. Seems to me the young lad was a prime target if El Syd wasn't covered.

    My guess, he had the skills to get open regardless of who was under Center and would have seen his share of throws.

    D: You still trying to sell the idea that Sully was head and shoulders better than Birk? My eye!! Sully was good...MAYBE close to as good as Birk the season before...but Sully has a bit of improving to do before he's considered the next Matt Birk. And, FYI, the turnstile was still there...Favre just got rid of the ball quicker.

    REFUTED!!!
    Nope, you said "Head and Shoulders", I said graded out statistically the same or just slightly below Matt.

    Even you would have to admit that the Noodle got alot less pressure up the middle from LB'rs this year.

    E: And again you're trying to say that Loadholt was a dominant force? Not really. An upgrade over Cook? Yes...but not a HUGE upgrade...YET. Again, you're overstating the impact that Loadholt had on the line, much as you do with Sullivan. Our line wasn't really that much better in 09 than in 08, but it finally has the POTENTIAL to be. The real difference was having a QB who can snap through teh reads adn get rid of the ball versus a QB who has trademarked the "Deer in headlights" look...

    REFUTED.
    Show me were I have ever said "Dominant" together with any rook, especially an OLmen.

    I think I quantified his play as better than any RT we've had for several years. Show me a RT from the last 10 years that you would rather have than Load right now.

    F: Finally, you blathered on in the end about why Favre had his best year ever....again, it was partly the team. But I ask you themn why Jackson hasn't been a statistical force to be reckoned with with VIRTUALLY the same team (Only YOU seem to beleive that we suddenly exploded with talent in 09).
    I like how you dodge the question. Are you sure you aren't a lawyer or a politician?

    The TRUTH is, Favre is a better QB than Jackson.
    Again, 20 years vs 4 years. I hope to all that is holy in this world that he is a better QB.

    Anyone who wouldn't agree with that is just silly.

    However, coma, you didn't explain why the Noodle, who didn't take the "I'm gonna be better than I have ever been in my 20 years" pill, actually put up his best year ever and even went so far as to say several times how this was the best team he had ever been on.

    Pretty lofty comments from the Noodle. Heck, he should know, he's been on alot of teams.

    Given virtually the same tools, Favre produced something close to a statistical miracle in 09.
    Now we are in the "Virtual World".

    LOL, comeon my friend, you know that isn't gonna slide.

    Something that Jackson would likely sell his soul to do in ANY year.
    Of course he would, just like Sage would, Rodgers would, etc etc etc.

    And, in order to validate your position, answer only this question, "If Jackson were to suddenly become the starter right now, would be put up the same numbers or numbers close to what Favre did last season?"
    I wouldn't expect him to put up the Noodles numbers. Hell, I don't believe the Noodle will be able to do that agian this year, even with this team.

    But I do believe he wouldn't have to be carried by this team this year. I think he has matured enough to actually run the offense, just like he did with the 3's against the other teams 1's last year.


    If you can't deliver a convincing "Yes he would" - and we all know you can't - then your entire arguenment is shiite, mostly because you seek to discount Favre entirely as a factor. Especially in the production of Rice and Harvin.
    Nope, my entire discussion is that I expect he will play like a 4 year vet, just like I expect the Noodle will play like a 20 year vet.

    Is that shiite or reality or just my refusal to live in the "Virtual World" of Caine? :P

    The TRUTH is that were Jackson to start right now, we'd see production similar to 08's numbers. Maybe a touch better from time to time, but mostly about the same.
    I agree, but I believe they would be just a bit better than you do.

    Again, I don't "Ignore" your points Marr... in this particular instance, I flat out disagree with them.

    Caine :P
    I know, but now I know why......One of us is an optimist, the other well, ......is kindof in the virtual world....
    Given virtually
    . :P
    Now we're going to play "Twist the quote out of context" game? By redefining my use of "virtually", you somehjow get to ignore everything I said?

    Hmmmm....who does this remind me of?

    1: In 08, Berrian played in 16 games...starting 13. He had 48 receptions, and 7 TDs (His most EVER). Maybe he should play hurt more often?

    Rice played in 13 games and started 3. So, was he simply hurt all season, or was Jackson unable to utilize him at all? You say it's all Sydney being hurt..I say bull puckey.

    2: You claim Birk was - your words - a "Turnstile" at center in '08...then you back track and say that Sullivan was only "just as good" as Birk. Does that mean that Sully was a turnstile too? Or, maybe you've been overstating how bad Birk was in order to create a "point" for you to refute Favre's ability with.......

    Hmmm....which is more likely?

    3: You proclaim how great Harvin was in comparison to Wade, then reject the OROY award Harvin won when asked if he would have gotten it with Jackson under center? What a crock!!! C'mon, Marrdro. You know you can't duck like that. Or maybe you dodged because the answer is, "No, Jackson wouldn't have been able to use Percy anywhere near as well"...

    4: You claim I dodged a question - really? I don't think I did. Was it "Why did Favre have his best year ever"? Simple - he had the luxury of not having to do it all by himself for one of the few times in his career. The combination of a dynamic running game as well as a dominant Defense meant favre could relax a bit. That leads to LESS pushing, which leads to less INT's, etc...

    What's Jackson's excuse? He had almost the same team in '08.

    5: Then you backtrack and give the "20 year vet versus 4 year vet" excuse? PUUUUHLEASE!!!!!! By that logic, Sage Rosenfels - a TEN year vet - should be whooping ass all over Jackson. Instead, it was a dead heat of incompetent and inconsistent play that prompted Chiller to beg Favre to come back out of retirement.

    No, the TRUTH is that Favre has what Jackson doesn't - HOF level talent. And he started displaying it in 1992 - his SECOND year in the NFL - when he displaced an injured Don Majkowski (Who should have been better, because he was a 6 year vet :woohoo: ). Jackson, after FOUR seasons, has displayed flashes of competency, surrounded by long periods of blaaaagh, with occasional bouts of "OHmyGODyouSUCK!!".

    6: Yes, one of us is an optimist - loosely translated, that means that one of us has faith that something good will happen, despite having absolutely no evidence to believe so.

    I choose to base my opinions on something a bit more substantive than "I sure do hope so!!!"

    Caine

  6. #136
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    FWIW, I think it would be a riot to hoist a few brews with Marrdro and have this discussion - I really do. Don't take this as a bashing of the person -just of the crap I disagree with...

  7. #137
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Rockmolder wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    I would quote the specific part but I think it would turn into a mess of a post, but @Marrdro, I don't think Rodgers would sell his soul to have that kind of a year. He had 3 less TDs and 300 more yards, and I'm sure he will only improve.

    I would love to jump in on this arguement (debate?) but I have class. Ahh, maybe later.
    I like you.
    I like him even more. Currently ole 12PP28 is above you on most spreadsheets...... :P
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #138
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Caine wrote:
    FWIW, I think it would be a riot to hoist a few brews with Marrdro and have this discussion - I really do. Don't take this as a bashing of the person -just of the crap I disagree with...
    Agree. I discuss and never argue......

    I think most (that have met me from this site) will tell you that once you get me going on a football discussion, you can't shut me up.

    Unless of course you keep enough beer in front of me so I spend my time sudsing instead of talking..... B)
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #139
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    Rockmolder wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    I would quote the specific part but I think it would turn into a mess of a post, but @Marrdro, I don't think Rodgers would sell his soul to have that kind of a year. He had 3 less TDs and 300 more yards, and I'm sure he will only improve.

    I would love to jump in on this arguement (debate?) but I have class. Ahh, maybe later.
    I like you.
    I like him even more. Currently ole 12PP28 is above you on most spreadsheets...... :P
    Oh, no. That's not good. What privileges did I just lose?
    "You can look pretty smart if you have a knack for planning ahead. That's Ted. The Packers are in good hands." - Ron Wolf


  10. #140
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Rockmolder wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    I would quote the specific part but I think it would turn into a mess of a post, but @Marrdro, I don't think Rodgers would sell his soul to have that kind of a year. He had 3 less TDs and 300 more yards, and I'm sure he will only improve.

    I would love to jump in on this arguement (debate?) but I have class. Ahh, maybe later.
    I like you.
    I like him even more. Currently ole 12PP28 is above you on most spreadsheets...... :P
    Oh, no. That's not good. What privileges did I just lose?
    No privileges. You just gotta work a bit harder to get above him, thats all.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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