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  1. #121
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Wait, you mentioned that Favre practiced with the first team all season and thats why he did well right?

    Last I checked Favre missed training camp and Jackson was practicing with the first team for a good portion of that time. Yet Favre still somehow managed to come out and play well.
    As I said earlier,,,,,,,......20 years vs 4 years.

    I would hope to shit that a cat that has been in the same offense for 19 of those 20 years could come in and play well.

    On a side note, anyone catch that TJ came in with the 3's during the regular season and still moved them down the field and put points on the board against the same defenses the Noodle put points on the board with our 1's with?

    Lets see the TJ haters pooooh poooooh that away. :P
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #122
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    expackerfan wrote:
    Why do I have to reread the same crap 50 times This tresd is 8 pages and you guy keep reposting the same crap. Be happy you have Favre id take him back in Green Bay in a second. And why is he thr noodle?
    Being the nice guy that I am, I extend a hearty welcome to our little Vikings world.

    By the way, EJmat got it almost correct............

    Mr. Marrdro calls him the noodle because he was under the impression he didn't have a good arm anymore based upon his last few games as a Jet.
    A great analyst "Brian Baldinger" showed a bunch of clips on the Noodles throws starting in 2006 all the way through his little episode with the Jets.

    In those clips he showed a change in the Noodles delivery and ball location for long throws.

    My opinion last year and this year is centered around those clips, not just the last few games of the Jets fiasco....

    A lot of us love having Favre but you have to understand for some people it's difficult watching and rooting for a guy that broke our hearts for many years. Sometimes it's hard to forget. I personally always admired Favre even as a Packer for the way he plays the game. I was very happy when the Vikings singed him. But for some, not so much. You can't blame anyone.
    I have also enjoyed (as a fan of the game) watching the Noodle do is thing and chalk him up as one of the greats to ever play that position and am glad I got to watch his career over the years....

    Problem is, I'm a Viking fan, and most of those games were against my team. Just to many of them to make me forget that he was (and in my heart he will always be) the enemy.

    Again, football fan (Love the cat) - Viking fan (Can't stand the guy, never have, never will).

    On a side note, just gotta ask one question......Why did you pick "Expackerfan" as your screen name? Could it be you are really a Lord Noodle Arm Dickhead (LNAD) fan rather than a PUKER (I use that one for Packers by the way) fan?
    Almost right? I think I hit it pretty head on :P

    Regardless of what clips Baldinger showed a lot of us had the question of whether or not his arm was capable of throwing like he did last year. Like I used to tell you that opinion of yours was a valid concern. It worked out very well for the Vikings that the concern was not a problem.

    I was wondering the same thing about his name. I think he/she is a Favre fan.

  3. #123
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    I agree with a lot of this. I don't think that TJ will be a great QB, all of a sudden, but I do think that he'll look a lot better than he has in past years. Favre is good QB and makes players around him look better. He brings that veteran leadership, reads defenses very well, sees the blitz coming, but you can't ignore the fact that you improved at nearly every single position on offense.

    I think that TJ will benefit so much from having Harvin. Having a versatile weapon like that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that Shiancoe is that good a player. His stats are raised more by him getting the amount of snaps that he does and the QBs he had who relied on the TE a lot, more than him being that good.

    Having Harvin as that guy who's open and who you can hit quickly will really help TJ. And if he keeps running those deep routes the way he does, as well, things should be quite good.

    Then you get to the improved O-line, Rice, etc. And I think that you can't compare the two situations.

    I still don't get the Birk hate. I thought he did great in Baltimore, while Sullivan looked awfully mediocre, but that might just be me.

    That said, Jackson won't be Favre. He'll be servicable, but not great, I think. He's someone who can get you there with a good running game, offense and defense, but I don't think that he'll be the driving force behind the team.
    "You can look pretty smart if you have a knack for planning ahead. That's Ted. The Packers are in good hands." - Ron Wolf


  4. #124
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    expackerfan wrote:
    Why do I have to reread the same crap 50 times This tresd is 8 pages and you guy keep reposting the same crap. Be happy you have Favre id take him back in Green Bay in a second. And why is he thr noodle?
    Being the nice guy that I am, I extend a hearty welcome to our little Vikings world.

    By the way, EJmat got it almost correct............

    Mr. Marrdro calls him the noodle because he was under the impression he didn't have a good arm anymore based upon his last few games as a Jet.
    A great analyst "Brian Baldinger" showed a bunch of clips on the Noodles throws starting in 2006 all the way through his little episode with the Jets.

    In those clips he showed a change in the Noodles delivery and ball location for long throws.

    My opinion last year and this year is centered around those clips, not just the last few games of the Jets fiasco....

    A lot of us love having Favre but you have to understand for some people it's difficult watching and rooting for a guy that broke our hearts for many years. Sometimes it's hard to forget. I personally always admired Favre even as a Packer for the way he plays the game. I was very happy when the Vikings singed him. But for some, not so much. You can't blame anyone.
    I have also enjoyed (as a fan of the game) watching the Noodle do is thing and chalk him up as one of the greats to ever play that position and am glad I got to watch his career over the years....

    Problem is, I'm a Viking fan, and most of those games were against my team. Just to many of them to make me forget that he was (and in my heart he will always be) the enemy.

    Again, football fan (Love the cat) - Viking fan (Can't stand the guy, never have, never will).

    On a side note, just gotta ask one question......Why did you pick "Expackerfan" as your screen name? Could it be you are really a Lord Noodle Arm Dickhead (LNAD) fan rather than a PUKER (I use that one for Packers by the way) fan?
    Almost right? I think I hit it pretty head on :P

    Regardless of what clips Baldinger showed a lot of us had the question of whether or not his arm was capable of throwing like he did last year. Like I used to tell you that opinion of yours was a valid concern. It worked out very well for the Vikings that the concern was not a problem.

    I was wondering the same thing about his name. I think he/she is a Favre fan.
    Uhhhh ohhhhh. I insulted a young lady a few months back by calling her a him.

    I hope I didn't do it again.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #125
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    I agree with a lot of this. I don't think that TJ will be a great QB, all of a sudden, but I do think that he'll look a lot better than he has in past years. Favre is good QB and makes players around him look better. He brings that veteran leadership, reads defenses very well, sees the blitz coming, but you can't ignore the fact that you improved at nearly every single position on offense.

    I think that TJ will benefit so much from having Harvin. Having a versatile weapon like that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that Shiancoe is that good a player. His stats are raised more by him getting the amount of snaps that he does and the QBs he had who relied on the TE a lot, more than him being that good.

    Having Harvin as that guy who's open and who you can hit quickly will really help TJ. And if he keeps running those deep routes the way he does, as well, things should be quite good.

    Then you get to the improved O-line, Rice, etc. And I think that you can't compare the two situations.

    I still don't get the Birk hate. I thought he did great in Baltimore, while Sullivan looked awfully mediocre, but that might just be me.

    That said, Jackson won't be Favre. He'll be servicable, but not great, I think. He's someone who can get you there with a good running game, offense and defense, but I don't think that he'll be the driving force behind the team.
    Couple of comments....

    a. Shanc. Shanc actually had a damn fine year with the likes of Gus and TJ throwing to him. It just carried over into the Noodle last year.

    We read some quotes from him were he and the staff said it was more along the lines of him getting comfortable his second year (during the Gus/TJ era) and really coming into it in the Noodle era.

    b. Birk. No hate from me on Matt. I absolutely hold him as one of the best Vikings to suite it up and strap it on at the Center position.

    Problem for me was all the delayed blitzes and inability to pull during the last 2 years he was with the team. If you watched any of the Ravens games you would have seen the same issues.

    By the way, statistically Sully graded out just about the same or equal to Matt last year.

    Not bad for a cat going into his second year, especially when you look at the defenses he faced (a few that were the same for Matt by the by).
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #126
    Join Date
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    I agree with a lot of this. I don't think that TJ will be a great QB, all of a sudden, but I do think that he'll look a lot better than he has in past years. Favre is good QB and makes players around him look better. He brings that veteran leadership, reads defenses very well, sees the blitz coming, but you can't ignore the fact that you improved at nearly every single position on offense.

    I think that TJ will benefit so much from having Harvin. Having a versatile weapon like that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that Shiancoe is that good a player. His stats are raised more by him getting the amount of snaps that he does and the QBs he had who relied on the TE a lot, more than him being that good.

    Having Harvin as that guy who's open and who you can hit quickly will really help TJ. And if he keeps running those deep routes the way he does, as well, things should be quite good.

    Then you get to the improved O-line, Rice, etc. And I think that you can't compare the two situations.

    I still don't get the Birk hate. I thought he did great in Baltimore, while Sullivan looked awfully mediocre, but that might just be me.

    That said, Jackson won't be Favre. He'll be servicable, but not great, I think. He's someone who can get you there with a good running game, offense and defense, but I don't think that he'll be the driving force behind the team.
    Couple of comments....

    a. Shanc. Shanc actually had a damn fine year with the likes of Gus and TJ throwing to him. It just carried over into the Noodle last year.

    We read some quotes from him were he and the staff said it was more along the lines of him getting comfortable his second year (during the Gus/TJ era) and really coming into it in the Noodle era.

    b. Birk. No hate from me on Matt. I absolutely hold him as one of the best Vikings to suite it up and strap it on at the Center position.

    Problem for me was all the delayed blitzes and inability to pull during the last 2 years he was with the team. If you watched any of the Ravens games you would have seen the same issues.

    By the way, statistically Sully graded out just about the same or equal to Matt last year.

    Not bad for a cat going into his second year, especially when you look at the defenses he faced (a few that were the same for Matt by the by).
    A. It's just that you have QBs who like to throw to the TE in Frerotte and Favre. No-name Jamie Asher had nearly 500 yards when Frerotte was in Washington. Donald Lee had a career year when he became the starter for our offense when Favre was there.

    And Shiancoe reminds me of Lee a lot.

    B. I haven't been watching Birk as much as you have and haven't noticed his problems with delayed blitzes, so I'll just take your word for it, but just seeing him and Sullivan play, Birk still looked like the more solid C to me.

    And I can't imagine that Sullivan's better at line calls than Birk, but that's more of an experience thing, anyway.
    "You can look pretty smart if you have a knack for planning ahead. That's Ted. The Packers are in good hands." - Ron Wolf


  7. #127
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
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    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    I agree with a lot of this. I don't think that TJ will be a great QB, all of a sudden, but I do think that he'll look a lot better than he has in past years. Favre is good QB and makes players around him look better. He brings that veteran leadership, reads defenses very well, sees the blitz coming, but you can't ignore the fact that you improved at nearly every single position on offense.

    I think that TJ will benefit so much from having Harvin. Having a versatile weapon like that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that Shiancoe is that good a player. His stats are raised more by him getting the amount of snaps that he does and the QBs he had who relied on the TE a lot, more than him being that good.

    Having Harvin as that guy who's open and who you can hit quickly will really help TJ. And if he keeps running those deep routes the way he does, as well, things should be quite good.

    Then you get to the improved O-line, Rice, etc. And I think that you can't compare the two situations.

    I still don't get the Birk hate. I thought he did great in Baltimore, while Sullivan looked awfully mediocre, but that might just be me.

    That said, Jackson won't be Favre. He'll be servicable, but not great, I think. He's someone who can get you there with a good running game, offense and defense, but I don't think that he'll be the driving force behind the team.
    Couple of comments....

    a. Shanc. Shanc actually had a damn fine year with the likes of Gus and TJ throwing to him. It just carried over into the Noodle last year.

    We read some quotes from him were he and the staff said it was more along the lines of him getting comfortable his second year (during the Gus/TJ era) and really coming into it in the Noodle era.

    b. Birk. No hate from me on Matt. I absolutely hold him as one of the best Vikings to suite it up and strap it on at the Center position.

    Problem for me was all the delayed blitzes and inability to pull during the last 2 years he was with the team. If you watched any of the Ravens games you would have seen the same issues.

    By the way, statistically Sully graded out just about the same or equal to Matt last year.

    Not bad for a cat going into his second year, especially when you look at the defenses he faced (a few that were the same for Matt by the by).
    A. It's just that you have QBs who like to throw to the TE in Frerotte and Favre. No-name Jamie Asher had nearly 500 yards when Frerotte was in Washington. Donald Lee had a career year when he became the starter for our offense when Favre was there.

    And Shiancoe reminds me of Lee a lot.

    B. I haven't been watching Birk as much as you have and haven't noticed his problems with delayed blitzes, so I'll just take your word for it, but just seeing him and Sullivan play, Birk still looked like the more solid C to me.

    And I can't imagine that Sullivan's better at line calls than Birk, but that's more of an experience thing, anyway.
    Actually saw several quotes from the Noodle himself saying that Sully didn't need much help from him this year, but I kindof think that was the Noodle kindof absorbing a bit from the "Minnesota Nice" crowd and not really taking the credit for his role in helping in that area.

    On a side note, that is one of the things I give the Noodle credit for that most Noodle CSA'rs forget about when I hack on his short comings. :huh:
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #128
    tarkenton10's Avatar
    tarkenton10 is offline Star Spokesman
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    2,200

    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    I agree with a lot of this. I don't think that TJ will be a great QB, all of a sudden, but I do think that he'll look a lot better than he has in past years. Favre is good QB and makes players around him look better. He brings that veteran leadership, reads defenses very well, sees the blitz coming, but you can't ignore the fact that you improved at nearly every single position on offense.

    I think that TJ will benefit so much from having Harvin. Having a versatile weapon like that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that Shiancoe is that good a player. His stats are raised more by him getting the amount of snaps that he does and the QBs he had who relied on the TE a lot, more than him being that good.

    Having Harvin as that guy who's open and who you can hit quickly will really help TJ. And if he keeps running those deep routes the way he does, as well, things should be quite good.

    Then you get to the improved O-line, Rice, etc. And I think that you can't compare the two situations.

    I still don't get the Birk hate. I thought he did great in Baltimore, while Sullivan looked awfully mediocre, but that might just be me.

    That said, Jackson won't be Favre. He'll be servicable, but not great, I think. He's someone who can get you there with a good running game, offense and defense, but I don't think that he'll be the driving force behind the team.
    Couple of comments....

    a. Shanc. Shanc actually had a damn fine year with the likes of Gus and TJ throwing to him. It just carried over into the Noodle last year.

    We read some quotes from him were he and the staff said it was more along the lines of him getting comfortable his second year (during the Gus/TJ era) and really coming into it in the Noodle era.

    b. Birk. No hate from me on Matt. I absolutely hold him as one of the best Vikings to suite it up and strap it on at the Center position.

    Problem for me was all the delayed blitzes and inability to pull during the last 2 years he was with the team. If you watched any of the Ravens games you would have seen the same issues.

    By the way, statistically Sully graded out just about the same or equal to Matt last year.

    Not bad for a cat going into his second year, especially when you look at the defenses he faced (a few that were the same for Matt by the by).
    TJ is a question mark no matter how you slice it. There are just more questions than answers.

    Sully is a move you had to make, while I think he may not have been as good as Birk last year he was close enough that you could let Birk go. You ahve two very different players. One is on his way down andhis play willonly get worse and you have a young player who will only get better. I think this year Sully will grade out as good or BETTER than Birk. That means it was a good move, even if he is only as good as Birk we will still have that quality play for another ten years. Birk is just about done!

    Shank is a good TE but we could upgrade if the right player came along. Unfortunately we have more pressing needs and Shank is good enough not to worry aobut that position.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  9. #129
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,909

    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    tarkenton10 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Rockmolder wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    I agree with a lot of this. I don't think that TJ will be a great QB, all of a sudden, but I do think that he'll look a lot better than he has in past years. Favre is good QB and makes players around him look better. He brings that veteran leadership, reads defenses very well, sees the blitz coming, but you can't ignore the fact that you improved at nearly every single position on offense.

    I think that TJ will benefit so much from having Harvin. Having a versatile weapon like that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that Shiancoe is that good a player. His stats are raised more by him getting the amount of snaps that he does and the QBs he had who relied on the TE a lot, more than him being that good.

    Having Harvin as that guy who's open and who you can hit quickly will really help TJ. And if he keeps running those deep routes the way he does, as well, things should be quite good.

    Then you get to the improved O-line, Rice, etc. And I think that you can't compare the two situations.

    I still don't get the Birk hate. I thought he did great in Baltimore, while Sullivan looked awfully mediocre, but that might just be me.

    That said, Jackson won't be Favre. He'll be servicable, but not great, I think. He's someone who can get you there with a good running game, offense and defense, but I don't think that he'll be the driving force behind the team.
    Couple of comments....

    a. Shanc. Shanc actually had a damn fine year with the likes of Gus and TJ throwing to him. It just carried over into the Noodle last year.

    We read some quotes from him were he and the staff said it was more along the lines of him getting comfortable his second year (during the Gus/TJ era) and really coming into it in the Noodle era.

    b. Birk. No hate from me on Matt. I absolutely hold him as one of the best Vikings to suite it up and strap it on at the Center position.

    Problem for me was all the delayed blitzes and inability to pull during the last 2 years he was with the team. If you watched any of the Ravens games you would have seen the same issues.

    By the way, statistically Sully graded out just about the same or equal to Matt last year.

    Not bad for a cat going into his second year, especially when you look at the defenses he faced (a few that were the same for Matt by the by).
    TJ is a question mark no matter how you slice it. There are just more questions than answers.

    Sully is a move you had to make, while I think he may not have been as good as Birk last year he was close enough that you could let Birk go. You ahve two very different players. One is on his way down andhis play willonly get worse and you have a young player who will only get better. I think this year Sully will grade out as good or BETTER than Birk. That means it was a good move, even if he is only as good as Birk we will still have that quality play for another ten years. Birk is just about done!

    Shank is a good TE but we could upgrade if the right player came along. Unfortunately we have more pressing needs and Shank is good enough not to worry aobut that position.
    Quality post my friend.

    On a side note, you see were Shanc is gonna add the weight back on he shed last year?

    A few days after the NFC championship game defeat, Shiancoe began preparing for 2010, mostly with intense stretching exercises designed to keep his muscles toned. The 6-foot-4 Shiancoe, whose playing weight ranged from 235 to 242 pounds in ’09, plans to beef up to 245 this season, yet he claims he’ll be quicker and more explosive.
    Shiancoe seeking unlimited exposure

    Could it be we are seeing the makings of a "Run first" team again this year.

    Rationale, Shanc getting big again equals more blocking, Toby = a big bruising back equates to more physical running, new TE's equate to more two TE sets which equate to more running.

    I can't wait to see what this offense looks like this year.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #130
    Caine's Avatar
    Caine is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    5,139

    Re:Jackson has 'wanted change' but not now

    Marrdro wrote:
    soonerbornNbred wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    .
    One fatal flaw in your logic: Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson has not.

    Further, you're forced to make one of two conclusions based upon the results of last season. Either;

    A: The team around Favre made him look much better.

    or

    B: Favre kicks ass.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.

    If you go with option B, you simply have to admit that Jackson has sucked wang these past seasons.

    Regardless, in every statistical scenario you can dream up to validate Jackson, the end result is that he simply has NOT - to date - shown that he CAN be the starter...which, by extension, means he cannot be. And, unless there is MAJOR improvement in almost all phases of his game, he will continue to NOT be.

    The trouble with the Jackson supporters is you're all trying to sell us on the notion that he MIGHT have improved, or he COULD be better...all of which is wishful thinking. Truth is, we ALL hope he's gotten better...much as we hope every player on the roster has improved to a Pro-Bowl level.

    But wishing it to be so doesn't make it so. Jackson had 3 years to show he could get the job done - he failed to do so by every imaginable criteria and was REPLACED by a retired Brett Favre. To expect Jackson to suddenly emerge as an elite QB is a pipe dream.

    The truth is, all the Jackson fans will likely get their wish. The fact that we have not made a serious move on a legit QB replacement means that either we're going after McNabb next season, or Jackson will be back. And if we get Jackson, we'll all get to see exactly how "improved" he really is....

    Caine


    A smattering of applause from the bleachers....Caine seems to be in touch with reality as much as a couple of others on here are not :woohoo:
    There are obvious flaws with Caines post though....


    Favre has already proven his ability to perform at a high level consistently. Jackson [u]has not
    20 years vs 4 years. I hope to shit the Noodle has proven something after all those years.

    If you go with option A, then you're left to explain why Jackson doesn't look anywhere near as good, with almost the same team.
    We've had this discussion before and he refuses to acknowledge that this team was better than it ever was last year and will be even better (at least on the offense) than it was last year because of:

    a. Injuries vs health. WRs were healthy last year that weren't when TJ was under center.
    b. Experience vs inexperience at the WR position. Some yutz says it takes 3 years for a WR to finally get it. Last year was El Syds breakout year, not because of the Noodle alone but talent as well. Some of El Syds catches were just flat out fantastic, especially the ones that weren't catchable. Shanc, even though he looked good with Gus and TJ, he really started to shine last year, making some fantastic catches of balls that were not well thrown.
    c. Harvin vs B-wade. PH was a bright light that shined last year as a rook. Can you imagine how much better he will be this year? WOW....
    d. Birk vs Sully. We didn't see a turnstyle in there this year at Center with a drastic decrease in sacks coming from delayed blitzes up the middle.
    e. PL vs Cook. Is PL a HOF'r yet? No, but he sure did alot better on his first year than any RT on this team for several years. Truth of the matter is, I am almost convinced he will move to LT after this season and we will see a new RT fill that void.

    Like it or not, the Noodle had better WR's, a better OL and his experience allowed Bevell to be a bit more creative in play calling.

    Again, one would EXPECT that out of a 20 year vet, but only hope that one would see flashes of that out of a 4 year vet.

    Really, 2/3 years considering the timeframe that most use to critique young TJ on .....

    One thing that my good friend Caine continues to ignore when it comes to the QB carried a team vs a team that can carry a QB discussion......

    Why in the hell did the Noodle have his best year ever? Maybe, just maybe this team was a heck of alot better last year and IS capable of carrying a QB, even one that has been in the league for 20 years.......
    Marrdro, why punish yourself like this?

    1: I don't ignore your illusory "points" - I have refuted them on numerous occassions. Why you keep attempting to foist them off as valid is beyond comprehension. We have shown REPEATEDLY that the differences between the 08 and 09 rosters weren't that significant.

    A: The only injury that affected Jackson was Rice. Favre was affected by an unhealthy Berrian. That's a wash.

    B: You talk about Rice's development - do you honestly believe that Rice has that good of a year with Jackson under center? Do you think his produictivity is even CLOSE to what is was with Favre? I don't. Favre has made a career of making good receivers look great, and average receivers look good. He did it time and time again in Green Bay. Why is it so hard to believe that MAYBE he did it again here? MAYBE, Favre drew it out of Rice? Of course, were youto admit that, you'd have to choke on the heaping piles of caacaa you've been spewing about Favre, so I can see why you'd prefer to stay in denial...

    Refuted.


    C: Harvin was a rookie - Wade a proven possession guy. Do you - again - bnelieve taht Harvin would have been OROY had Jackson been throwing to him? Do you think Jackson could bring Harvin's talents screaming to the forefront? Because I know Jackson really brought out the talents of .....well ......ummmm ......Gus Frerotte!!!

    Again...refuted.

    D: You still trying to sell the idea that Sully was head and shoulders better than Birk? My eye!! Sully was good...MAYBE close to as good as Birk the season before...but Sully has a bit of improving to do before he's considered the next Matt Birk. And, FYI, the turnstile was still there...Favre just got rid of the ball quicker.

    REFUTED!!!

    E: And again you're trying to say that Loadholt was a dominant force? Not really. An upgrade over Cook? Yes...but not a HUGE upgrade...YET. Again, you're overstating the impact that Loadholt had on the line, much as you do with Sullivan. Our line wasn't really that much better in 09 than in 08, but it finally has the POTENTIAL to be. The real difference was having a QB who can snap through teh reads adn get rid of the ball versus a QB who has trademarked the "Deer in headlights" look...

    REFUTED.

    F: Finally, you blathered on in the end about why Favre had his best year ever....again, it was partly the team. But I ask you themn why Jackson hasn't been a statistical force to be reckoned with with VIRTUALLY the same team (Only YOU seem to beleive that we suddenly exploded with talent in 09).

    The TRUTH is, Favre is a better QB than Jackson. Given virtually the same tools, Favre produced something close to a statistical miracle in 09. Something that Jackson would likely sell his soul to do in ANY year. And, in order to validate your position, answer only this question, "If Jackson were to suddenly become the starter right now, would be put up the same numbers or numbers close to what Favre did last season?"

    If you can't deliver a convincing "Yes he would" - and we all know you can't - then your entire arguenment is shiite, mostly because you seek to discount Favre entirely as a factor. Especially in the production of Rice and Harvin.

    The TRUTH is that were Jackson to start right now, we'd see production similar to 08's numbers. Maybe a touch better from time to time, but mostly about the same.

    Again, I don't "Ignore" your points Marr... in this particular instance, I flat out disagree with them.

    Caine

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