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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Well, if that is what you are looking for in a QB then hell, he is your man. I think you can still buy his jersey.

    OTOH I find it interesting how much hate you have for Ponder- Did he steal your woman or what?

    I understand you went don fighting for the Honor of Jackson and all and that blew up but Ponder, while he may never end up being a franchise QB, is still better than he was and you can spend your days digging for stats to try to make Ponder look as bad as you can while you spend the same time trying to find stats to make Jackson look better than he was but in the end Ponder is still better than Jackson ever was and he may need to be replaced at some point this year but that still doesn't change that fact.
    No, Webb's not what I'm looking for in a QB. Ponder is better than Jackson was, but that doesn't make him good. I don't hate Ponder, I just don't think he's our guy. With Jackson, I was done with him after 20 starts. Many fans were done with him before half of that. With Ponder, he has had 26 consecutive starts with the team to date & I'm not seeing it except for a game here & there.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    LOL

    Webb's deep shot consisted of completely blown coverage to Jenkins for a walk-in TD. Let's talk instead about all the missed throws in the 5-20 yard range that were so far off the mark starting with the one on the first drive that stalled inside the redzone.
    I did talk about it. Again, he played bad. The worst I've ever seen him play, but blown coverage or not, he still had a TD from outside the redzone, which was something Ponder couldn't accomplish all year, even on passes where there was blown coverages or wide open receivers.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Well, if that is what you are looking for in a QB then hell, he is your man. I think you can still buy his jersey.

    OTOH I find it interesting how much hate you have for Ponder- Did he steal your woman or what?

    I understand you went don fighting for the Honor of Jackson and all and that blew up but Ponder, while he may never end up being a franchise QB, is still better than he was and you can spend your days digging for stats to try to make Ponder look as bad as you can while you spend the same time trying to find stats to make Jackson look better than he was but in the end Ponder is still better than Jackson ever was and he may need to be replaced at some point this year but that still doesn't change that fact.
    No, Webb's not what I'm looking for in a QB. Ponder is better than Jackson was, but that doesn't make him good. I don't hate Ponder, I just don't think he's our guy. With Jackson, I was done with him after 20 starts. Many fans were done with him before half of that. With Ponder, he has had 26 consecutive starts with the team to date & I'm not seeing it except for a game here & there.
    The whole 20 vs26 start thing is skewed because it took Jackson over 2x longer to get his total because he was either doing something that got him hurt and landing on IR or his play was so completely brutal that he got benched.

    Ponder has been in the league 2 seasons. He is still growing but I am pretty much at the same place with him I was with Jackson after 2 years in that I don't think he has the mental makeup to be a franchise QB. It would have been nice to see how he handled a playoff game but even without that if he doesn't show a command of the offense and an understanding of the weaknesses of the defenses he faces on day one by starting to exploit them in the passing game then you can stick a fork in him too.

  4. #64
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post

    Ponder has been in the league 2 seasons. He is still growing but I am pretty much at the same place with him I was with Jackson after 2 years in that I don't think he has the mental makeup to be a franchise QB. It would have been nice to see how he handled a playoff game but even without that if he doesn't show a command of the offense and an understanding of the weaknesses of the defenses he faces on day one by starting to exploit them in the passing game then you can stick a fork in him too.
    Wins and losses are the ultimate stat. , even if Peterson was more responsible for those wins than Ponder. Ponder didn't screw up enough to turn all of Peterson's good work into losses, most of the time. The first Green Bay game was certainly a notable exception.
    The other important stat. for a QB is the TD to Int. ratio. That improved in Ponders second year and is similar to what we've seen with the development of other successful QB's in the league.
    Never the less, areas of concern are abundant and I doubt Vikings fans will be very tolerant of another year of mediocre or poor play.
    Rarely will a team go far with a QB who is dependent upon his running back and field goal kicker to score points.
    If Ponder can't bring the team back from behind with his arm, he won't make it in this league.
    Like you, I question his mental make up as well. He supposedly has an abundance of intelligence, but this is more about emotional make up than intelligence. Reaction to pressure is emotional more than analytical.
    He appears to lack the degree of confidence I see in RG III, Wilson, Kaepernick, and others.
    With a better command of the offense, understanding of the defenses he faces, and new offensive weapons, Ponder should have a break out season.
    If not, get out the fork!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    Wins and losses are the ultimate stat. , even if Peterson was more responsible for those wins than Ponder. Ponder didn't screw up enough to turn all of Peterson's good work into losses, most of the time. The first Green Bay game was certainly a notable exception.
    The other important stat. for a QB is the TD to Int. ratio. That improved in Ponders second year and is similar to what we've seen with the development of other successful QB's in the league.
    Never the less, areas of concern are abundant and I doubt Vikings fans will be very tolerant of another year of mediocre or poor play.
    Rarely will a team go far with a QB who is dependent upon his running back and field goal kicker to score points.
    If Ponder can't bring the team back from behind with his arm, he won't make it in this league.
    Like you, I question his mental make up as well. He supposedly has an abundance of intelligence, but this is more about emotional make up than intelligence. Reaction to pressure is emotional more than analytical.
    He appears to lack the degree of confidence I see in RG III, Wilson, Kaepernick, and others.
    With a better command of the offense, understanding of the defenses he faces, and new offensive weapons, Ponder should have a break out season.
    If not, get out the fork!
    What a QB needs is the ability to not only think, as Ponder clearly has, but to think under pressure and that is where the question lies. Childress was much like that. He could come up with very quippy comments off the cuff when standing at the podium but when he had to make a great call against an opposing coach in the heat of the battle he didn't do very well. Not any fault, just the way their brain is programmed. If that ends up being the case with ponder he will more than likely do very well in another career, but under center might not be his best place to excel.

  6. #66
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    yeah he just paved the way for the second best rushing performance in NFL history and an MVP..... as a running back which is unheard of these days... U don't need the ball to have an impact.. i.e. the offensive line...

  7. #67
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    The clear cut top of the line QB in that draft class, a Class of weak QBs was Ryan Mallett. Not only did we choose the weakest class to choose a QB out of, we chose the wrong one. Ryan Mallett can make all the throws, is accurate and football smart, cannon arm, and good pocket presence. He goes to the patriots to take over for Tomcat when he is done, and the pats get another great QB to lead them..

    Iono why we passed on Ryan Mallett a SEC QB for an ACC QB with a weak arm..

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    Wins and losses are the ultimate stat. , even if Peterson was more responsible for those wins than Ponder. Ponder didn't screw up enough to turn all of Peterson's good work into losses, most of the time. The first Green Bay game was certainly a notable exception.
    The other important stat. for a QB is the TD to Int. ratio. That improved in Ponders second year and is similar to what we've seen with the development of other successful QB's in the league.
    Never the less, areas of concern are abundant and I doubt Vikings fans will be very tolerant of another year of mediocre or poor play.
    Rarely will a team go far with a QB who is dependent upon his running back and field goal kicker to score points.
    If Ponder can't bring the team back from behind with his arm, he won't make it in this league.
    Like you, I question his mental make up as well. He supposedly has an abundance of intelligence, but this is more about emotional make up than intelligence. Reaction to pressure is emotional more than analytical.
    He appears to lack the degree of confidence I see in RG III, Wilson, Kaepernick, and others.
    With a better command of the offense, understanding of the defenses he faces, and new offensive weapons, Ponder should have a break out season.
    If not, get out the fork!
    TJack was 10-11 as a starter(including a road playoff loss and a the final week of 2010's 3-13season)
    Ponder is 12-14 as a starter, and avoided a likely loss in the playoffs last year.
    Slight edge Tjack

    Tjack's Vikings career 24TD 22Int 1.09:1
    Ponder 31td 25int 1.24:1
    Slight edge Ponder

    The best argument that Tjack supporters had was that his numbers got better every year, the same argument Ponder supporters are making. I'm not falling for it.
    I still have hope for Ponder, but I'm not optimistic. His career path is very similar to Tjack, which is not a good sign.
    The best thing I saw from Ponder last year was that he stayed on the field for 16 games, but then he missed the playoff game, so I can't even say he's a durable QB. This is the most underrated criteria for becoming a good QB. Most of the top established QB's(Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Manning, Brees, Rivers) rarely miss games. It is also, arguably, one of the biggest reasons Tjack couldn't cut it as a starter.
    Last edited by jmcdon00; 07-09-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #69
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdon00 View Post
    TJack was 10-11 as a starter(including a road playoff loss and a the final week of 2010's 3-13season)
    Ponder is 12-14 as a starter, and avoided a likely loss in the playoffs last year.
    Slight edge Tjack

    Tjack's Vikings career 24TD 22Int 1.09:1
    Ponder 31td 25int 1.24:1
    Slight edge Ponder

    The best argument that Tjack supporters had was that his numbers got better every year, the same argument Ponder supporters are making. I'm not falling for it.
    I still have hope for Ponder, but I'm not optimistic. His career path is very similar to Tjack, which is not a good sign.
    The best thing I saw from Ponder last year was that he stayed on the field for 16 games, but then he missed the playoff game, so I can't even say he's a durable QB. This is the most underrated criteria for becoming a good QB. Most of the top established QB's(Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Manning, Brees, Rivers) rarely miss games. It is also, arguably, one of the biggest reasons Tjack couldn't cut it as a starter.
    I keep hearing coaches, players, and analysts say Ponder can 'make all the throws'.
    We've all heard how intelligent Ponder is.
    I'm just not seeing it translated to on the field performance.
    Why is that? Is it inexperience or , as PF suggests, emotional make up ?

    As you point out, the inability to stay healthy has already cost him valuable play off experience and could derail his career.

    At this point the similarities between Ponder and Tjack seem more relevant than those between Ponder and previously successful NFL QB's who got off to slow starts, such as Aikman. The odds Ponder will become any more than a 'game manager' at best, seem low.

    Eli Manning improved when the team around him improved. Perhaps that will happen with Ponder.
    I wouldn't bet hard earned money on it, but I sure hope this is the year he proves the doubters wrong.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    I keep hearing coaches, players, and analysts say Ponder can 'make all the throws'.
    We've all heard how intelligent Ponder is.
    I'm just not seeing it translated to on the field performance.
    Why is that? Is it inexperience or , as PF suggests, emotional make up ?

    As you point out, the inability to stay healthy has already cost him valuable play off experience and could derail his career.

    At this point the similarities between Ponder and Tjack seem more relevant than those between Ponder and previously successful NFL QB's who got off to slow starts, such as Aikman. The odds Ponder will become any more than a 'game manager' at best, seem low.

    Eli Manning improved when the team around him improved. Perhaps that will happen with Ponder.
    I wouldn't bet hard earned money on it, but I sure hope this is the year he proves the doubters wrong.
    Most NFL QB's can make all the throws, if you can't your not going to be in the league very long. It comes down to make good decisions very quickly, and consistently.
    Eli is a good comparison, pretty similar career paths in their first 2 years. Eli's greatest attribute is that he is always on the field, which allows him to get better.
    Eli's first playoff game was at home, he was 10/18 110 yards 0td 3int 1fmble lost QB rating 35, which is still better than Ponder's first playoff game().

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