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  1. #91
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Kevon, you seem to keep making up stories about what could have happened to justify McKinnie clubbing someone over the head with a 40 pound pole, saying that "we just don't know all the facts yet."
    Fine.
    Let's look at what we do know...

    http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/15928457.html
    According to a Miami police report obtained by The Herald, McKinnie spit on the face of a bouncer, 32-year-old Eric Otero, shoved a camera phone into his face and then picked up a heavy pole and slammed it over Otero's head. This occurred in front of a large crowd.

    The trouble had started when Otero attempted to eject the 6-8, 335-pound McKinnie from the club. As he was being taken out of the establishment, McKinnie yelled obscenities and spit in Otero's face according to police. Otero said if McKinnie left, he would not press charges.

    The police then saw McKinnie entering a nearby strip club. But the Herald reported that, at about 6:30 a.m., police were again called to Club Space. Police found McKinnie "in the middle of a large crowd, throwing punches and again yelling obscenities" at Otero, the police report said. The police told him to stop, but he refused and boarded a charter bus. The driver of the bus was ordered not to leave.
    So let's look at this timeline with what we do know.

    1) McKinnie goes to a bar called Club Space.
    2) McKinnie, for reasons unknown, is ejected from the bar.
    3) During the ejection, McKinnie spit in the face of the bouncer (ASSAULT)
    4) The police were called to the club, but the bouncer said that he would not press charges as long as McKinnie left.
    5) Later, McKinnie returns to the club, against the direction of the bouncer. (DISORDERLY CONDUCT, TRESPASSING)
    6) A fight starts in which McKinnie is observed by a large crowd punching the bouncer, and then picking up a large pole and hitting said bouncer over the head with it.
    He was not on the ground struggling for his life as you like to think. (AGGRAVATED BATTERY)
    7) The police are called again, and when they arrive, the police observe McKinnie "in the middle of a large crowd, throwing punches and again yelling obscenities." (DISORDERLY CONDUCT)
    8) The police order McKinnie to stop, and he refuses, instead boarding a charter bus. (RESISTING ARREST)

    Now, given that information from the police report, I would love to see you try and justify his actions to fit your presumption of innocence.
    While I acknowledge the very remote possibility of McKinnie defending himself in the Assault and Battery charges, two things are fairly indisputable.
    First, he returned to the club after being instructed not to.
    Second, he resisted arrest.


    Finally I would like to remind you that the court of public opinion and the court of law are two very different things.
    Pro Athletes, for better or worse, are held to a much higher public standard other people.
    As soon as McKinnie signed his $48.5 million contract extension, he accepted this.
    If he no longer wants to be subject to the trials of public scrutiny, then he needs to retire and get out of the public eye.
    Ok not trying to take sides here but...

    Playing devils advoate here. Did he spit as in coughed up a loogi and spit on him or was he drunk and like most people spit just comes out when they talk.
    There is a difference. When i worked in the school system I had to have a meeting with our principle because a student went home and said I spit on him. Which I didn't. I was talking and spit came out of my mouth and landed on him. But I did technically spit on him. I never realized i did, apologized to the student, But the parent was still upset and actually wanted to press charges. thankfully the police and school realized how stuipid it was and it eneded there. But you get my point.

    What happened when BM went back to the club? And Why? Did he go back to get something that was left? Did the bouncer perhaps instigate the situation? Did the bouncer start the fight?
    Would this make a difference if it was true. Remember we are hearing only the side being told to us by someone else. I am not saying he is not in the wrong on this, I think he made some stupid and poor choices, We all do. But to say that he is guilty based on what we know which is one side of the story and not the whole story which we do not know I think is wrong IMHO.

  2. #92
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    Also another thing to remember. and yes he was wrong for doing it. But a Pissed off BM swinging a 40 pound "Club" or what ever you want to call it and not doing pretty serious damage to someone makes me also ask what happened.

  3. #93
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    2) If you would like to get back to the topic lets. I have already stated that the NFL stepped in and suspended the likes of Thurman, Henry and Jones due to their multiple counts of miscounduct. However, lesser offenders are less likely to be suspended. Now the million dollar question is....Is Mt. considered a serious offender? I have only come across the "Love Boat" event as the only knock on Mac. I haven't gotten wind of anything else. There are plenty of guys that have gotten arrested this past year that the NFL did not step in and suspend. There seems to be a lot of assumptions about the whole situation.
    We assume Mac did beat the bouncer over the head with a pole.
    We assume the NFL will suspend him.
    We assume that he doesn't have a valid reason to do it(if he did it).

    All i am saying to you and to my fellow posters is have some paitence and wait to here his side of the event. Is it possible that he has a valid reason for his actions? Yes is it probable? I don' think so but I cheer this guy on and I am willing to give the guy a chance to defend himself before I call him a lump of ish and demand we cut him. Licking on a stripper is totally different than beating someone over the head with a metal pole.
    McKinnie has the love boat, the altercation in the parking lot of the gas station with Marcus Johnson (I think that's who was with him) and the latest incident.


    As to the rest - I'm sorry, but I like to live in a society where there is no "valid reason" for whacking a bouncer over the head with a velvet-rope pole.

    =Z=
    Another case of everyone assuming he was guilty but when the evidence came out he really did nothing wrong.
    But you do have a valid point.

  4. #94
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "Garland" wrote:
    Another case of everyone assuming he was guilty but when the evidence came out he really did nothing wrong.
    But you do have a valid point.
    I'm so sick of "GUILTY" and "INNOCENT".

    IMHO - that's not the point.
    There are TONS of Vikings about which we NEVER hear ANYTHING negative off the field.
    Whether or not he's found "GUILTY" in a court-of-law has nothing to do with whether or not he keeps putting himself into bad situations.
    The NFL and the Vikings suffer when he does that, regardless of the judicial outcome.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  5. #95
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    Another case of everyone assuming he was guilty but when the evidence came out he really did nothing wrong.
    But you do have a valid point.
    I'm so sick of "GUILTY" and "INNOCENT".

    IMHO - that's not the point.
    There are TONS of Vikings about which we NEVER hear ANYTHING negative off the field.
    Whether or not he's found "GUILTY" in a court-of-law has nothing to do with whether or not he keeps putting himself into bad situations.
    The NFL and the Vikings suffer when he does that, regardless of the judicial outcome.

    =Z=
    I say we be like the villagers in the story about the boy that cried wolf. They were tired of his actions and his jesting. However, they realized that he could be telling the truth and game him another shot. Luckily, they came to his rescue just in time( depends which version of the story you were told as a kid). My point is, so far we have witnesses who
    say a fight broker out and Mac hit him over the head. Who are these witnesses( club workers / owners). What is so hard about giving the guy the benift of doubt until you hear what he has to say about it? He may come out and say he's innocent because of mind control WTF cares. I want to hear what he has to say before I run him out of town.

  6. #96
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Vikes_King" wrote:
    Btw, it wasn't just a "pipe" he hit the guy with one of these fricken things

    [img width=450 height=450]http://culvercity.classicpartyrentals.com/product_image/image/94/004.-STANCHRM_lrg.jpg[/img]


    I worked at a rental center with those, they weigh at least 40 pounds or so.


    I don't know how you can say "im not saying he's guilty or innocent until i get the facts" then at the same know that he [i]hit the guy with a pole.
    Now that right there makes him at least guilty of that, hitting a guy with a pole.
    Now notice I didn't say he will be found legally guilty of a crime, depending on #1 his lawyer, and #2 what his side of the story.


    Whether or not he's found guilty in court, he is still guilty of hitting a guy with a stanchion
    Thats what I've been trying to make clear...
    I understand that fully. Please understand me. What if Mac was loosing this fight and getting choked to the point he feared for his life( possible as we don't have the full details of the Fight. We only know that he returned to the club, a fight broker out and that a bouncer was hit over the head with a pole) grabbed a pole and clubbed the guy off him and hen continued to hi the guy. The fact that Mac clubbed the guy to save his own life becomes a factor in his innocence.
    Holy pooh.
    Now who's making wild assumptions?
    No assumptions my friend. I was asked in what cases is it ok to hit someone over the head with a pipe. I provided a situation. I wasn't there and my entire stance is against making assumptions. I never said this is what happened.

  7. #97
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "Garland" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Kevon, you seem to keep making up stories about what could have happened to justify McKinnie clubbing someone over the head with a 40 pound pole, saying that "we just don't know all the facts yet."
    Fine.
    Let's look at what we do know...

    http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/15928457.html
    According to a Miami police report obtained by The Herald, McKinnie spit on the face of a bouncer, 32-year-old Eric Otero, shoved a camera phone into his face and then picked up a heavy pole and slammed it over Otero's head. This occurred in front of a large crowd.

    The trouble had started when Otero attempted to eject the 6-8, 335-pound McKinnie from the club. As he was being taken out of the establishment, McKinnie yelled obscenities and spit in Otero's face according to police. Otero said if McKinnie left, he would not press charges.

    The police then saw McKinnie entering a nearby strip club. But the Herald reported that, at about 6:30 a.m., police were again called to Club Space. Police found McKinnie "in the middle of a large crowd, throwing punches and again yelling obscenities" at Otero, the police report said. The police told him to stop, but he refused and boarded a charter bus. The driver of the bus was ordered not to leave.
    So let's look at this timeline with what we do know.

    1) McKinnie goes to a bar called Club Space.
    2) McKinnie, for reasons unknown, is ejected from the bar.
    3) During the ejection, McKinnie spit in the face of the bouncer (ASSAULT)
    4) The police were called to the club, but the bouncer said that he would not press charges as long as McKinnie left.
    5) Later, McKinnie returns to the club, against the direction of the bouncer. (DISORDERLY CONDUCT, TRESPASSING)
    6) A fight starts in which McKinnie is observed by a large crowd punching the bouncer, and then picking up a large pole and hitting said bouncer over the head with it.
    He was not on the ground struggling for his life as you like to think. (AGGRAVATED BATTERY)
    7) The police are called again, and when they arrive, the police observe McKinnie "in the middle of a large crowd, throwing punches and again yelling obscenities." (DISORDERLY CONDUCT)
    8) The police order McKinnie to stop, and he refuses, instead boarding a charter bus. (RESISTING ARREST)

    Now, given that information from the police report, I would love to see you try and justify his actions to fit your presumption of innocence.
    While I acknowledge the very remote possibility of McKinnie defending himself in the Assault and Battery charges, two things are fairly indisputable.
    First, he returned to the club after being instructed not to.
    Second, he resisted arrest.


    Finally I would like to remind you that the court of public opinion and the court of law are two very different things.
    Pro Athletes, for better or worse, are held to a much higher public standard other people.
    As soon as McKinnie signed his $48.5 million contract extension, he accepted this.
    If he no longer wants to be subject to the trials of public scrutiny, then he needs to retire and get out of the public eye.
    Ok not trying to take sides here but...

    Playing devils advoate here. Did he spit as in coughed up a loogi and spit on him or was he drunk and like most people spit just comes out when they talk.
    There is a difference. When i worked in the school system I had to have a meeting with our principle because a student went home and said I spit on him. Which I didn't. I was talking and spit came out of my mouth and landed on him. But I did technically spit on him. I never realized i did, apologized to the student, But the parent was still upset and actually wanted to press charges. thankfully the police and school realized how stuipid it was and it eneded there. But you get my point.

    What happened when BM went back to the club? And Why? Did he go back to get something that was left? Did the bouncer perhaps instigate the situation? Did the bouncer start the fight?
    Would this make a difference if it was true. Remember we are hearing only the side being told to us by someone else. I am not saying he is not in the wrong on this, I think he made some stupid and poor choices, We all do. But to say that he is guilty based on what we know which is one side of the story and not the whole story which we do not know I think is wrong IMHO.
    Thank you.

  8. #98
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    Another case of everyone assuming he was guilty but when the evidence came out he really did nothing wrong.
    But you do have a valid point.
    I'm so sick of "GUILTY" and "INNOCENT".

    IMHO - that's not the point.
    There are TONS of Vikings about which we NEVER hear ANYTHING negative off the field.
    Whether or not he's found "GUILTY" in a court-of-law has nothing to do with whether or not he keeps putting himself into bad situations.
    The NFL and the Vikings suffer when he does that, regardless of the judicial outcome.

    =Z=
    It's not going to change zues. Plenty of teams have great players who never break the law. Just like plenty of companies have employees that never break the law. I just don't understand why you have to pass judgement without hearing what someone has to say. Jurors with that train of thought put innocent people in jail everyday.

  9. #99
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    Another case of everyone assuming he was guilty but when the evidence came out he really did nothing wrong.
    But you do have a valid point.
    I'm so sick of "GUILTY" and "INNOCENT".

    IMHO - that's not the point.
    There are TONS of Vikings about which we NEVER hear ANYTHING negative off the field.
    Whether or not he's found "GUILTY" in a court-of-law has nothing to do with whether or not he keeps putting himself into bad situations.
    The NFL and the Vikings suffer when he does that, regardless of the judicial outcome.

    =Z=
    It's not going to change zues. Plenty of teams have great players who never break the law. Just like plenty of companies have employees that never break the law. I just don't understand why you have to pass judgement without hearing what someone has to say. Jurors with that train of thought put innocent people in jail everyday.
    Again, you need to seperate the court of law from public opinion.
    We aren't on the jury, and as Vikings fans we are not talking about putting him in jail.
    We are talking about preparing for the possibility of suspension, either related to this incident or future ones.
    I will let the courts decide if he gets any jail time.
    However, the time to get a replacement for him is now, in the draft.
    Not in July or August when his trial finishes.
    The Vikings need to make an educated guess of what the outcome will be given the information we have now.

    And an educated guess tells me that McKinnie will likely be suspended for part of the season in 2008.
    Do I think he is guilty?
    Yes, I am reasonably sure he is guilty.
    Does that mean I may be proven wrong later?
    Yes - but that is OK because I am not on his jury.
    Regardless of what the final outcome of the trial is, McKinnie made bad choices that served as a detriment to the team.
    That makes him expendable in my opinion.
    Couple that with his spotty performance and monster contract, and I simply don't want him on the Vikings any more.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #100
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    Re: Guilty Before Proven Innocent?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    Another case of everyone assuming he was guilty but when the evidence came out he really did nothing wrong.
    But you do have a valid point.
    I'm so sick of "GUILTY" and "INNOCENT".

    IMHO - that's not the point.
    There are TONS of Vikings about which we NEVER hear ANYTHING negative off the field.
    Whether or not he's found "GUILTY" in a court-of-law has nothing to do with whether or not he keeps putting himself into bad situations.
    The NFL and the Vikings suffer when he does that, regardless of the judicial outcome.

    =Z=
    It's not going to change zues. Plenty of teams have great players who never break the law. Just like plenty of companies have employees that never break the law. I just don't understand why you have to pass judgement without hearing what someone has to say. Jurors with that train of thought put innocent people in jail everyday.
    Again, you need to seperate the court of law from public opinion.
    We aren't on the jury, and as Vikings fans we are not talking about putting him in jail.
    We are talking about preparing for the possibility of suspension, either related to this incident or future ones.
    I will let the courts decide if he gets any jail time.
    However, the time to get a replacement for him is now, in the draft.
    Not in July or August when his trial finishes.
    The Vikings need to make an educated guess of what the outcome will be given the information we have now.

    And an educated guess tells me that McKinnie will likely be suspended for part of the season in 2008.
    Do I think he is guilty?
    Yes, I am reasonably sure he is guilty.
    Does that mean I may be proven wrong later?
    Yes - but that is OK because I am not on his jury.
    Regardless of what the final outcome of the trial is, McKinnie made bad choices that served as a detriment to the team.
    That makes him expendable in my opinion.
    Couple that with his spotty performance and monster contract, and I simply don't want him on the Vikings any more.
    Great post NP, very well said.


    /Thread.



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