Thread: Greenway Shines For Vikings Defense Again

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

I had rethought it way before that and tried unsuccessfully to make you see the light. Glad to see you came over to the dark side. Now, we just need to get you on board with the notion of a secondary that can actually contest the passing game and not just appease the QB and let them complete their passed without a fight and rely on trying to make the tackle as your primary responsibility.

First, I haven't come over yet......

Second, ibleedpurple was also trying to convince me at the same time that we were actually going to change our scheme based on the new DL rotation, which didn't really come to fruition.

Third, you sound like you want them to become shutdown CB's like Singer......that would require a scheme change..... Just kidding. Lets see what happens with Cook and Megatron.

Remember, last year I was convinced we would see a scheme change, and not on the DL. I thought we were going to see more of a Press/Zone look from our DB's and believe we did at first, then Cook did his dumb act.

This year, we are seeing more of it again (remember the fine article posted by someone that broke down how many times we weren't in C2 vs how many times we were) as we are seeing Smith in the box and getting in behind the OL more and more each game.

So, although I still want the warpig, I can see changes happening that make me rethink it a bit. If JA could just get off his dead ass I would be completely happy with the way the defense has played this year.

Don't forget, for all my beeeeeyyyyatching, we are still ranked pretty high against the run and the pass and thats basically with nothing coming from our RDE.

Originally Posted by marshallvike

ALL RIGHT. THAT'S IT. I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH!!! Either you were in the closet waaaaaay to long, or this is a marrdro imposter.

(Although I don't know if there is anyone willing to take that role.)

LOL, PPO is so much more fun when we have threads that actually talk about football instead of trying to piss each other off......

Well played my friend. Well played indeed.

Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple

THat's what I've been telling you ever since Phat Pat retired. The C2 D by design really doesn't need a 'warpig'. It's supposed to rely on four athletic linemen who can play gap defense first, then rush the passer secondary. Our linebackers cover their hook zones and fill remaining gaps.

With Pat we had a great pass rush. Without Pat, we've had a great pass rush. Our lack of a nosetackle hasn't made much of a difference. We had a top-notch Run D (bottom notch pass D) a couple years, and it's been slipping ever since. What has improved is our pass D. Despite our talent level decreasing, our pass defense has improved.

C2 yes, T2 no.

Remember there is a difference between the two schemes and the way the UT/DT/0-1 tech and MLB are used are the differences.

I wish I could figure out how to use the search funtion to actually find something. I'd pull up that thread I started this summer that explained all that.

Originally Posted by Marrdro

C2 yes, T2 no.

Remember there is a difference between the two schemes and the way the UT/DT/0-1 tech and MLB are used are the differences.

I wish I could figure out how to use the search funtion to actually find something. I'd pull up that thread I started this summer that explained all that.

Nice breakdown of different defensive schemes (along with some history to put things in perspective).

The Ultimate Guide to NFL Defense

All 3-technique tackles are not alike. Defensive coaches continually search for ways to make their defensive linemen more effective. One of those ways, which was later adapted to the Tampa-2 defense by Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin, was to slide the defensive tackles away from the strength of the offensive formation instead of playing them in even alignments over the offensive guards. This "undershifted" front makes it very difficult for the offensive line to double team the 3-technique, or in this case, undertackle.

Here's how the differences look in the playbook and on the field:

With the strong side (TE side in this diagram) guard essentially uncovered, the defensive line has shifted away, or undershifted, from the strength of the offensive line. The strong side defensive tackle plays over the shoulder of the center and the weak side end plays a loose 5-technique outside the tackle, leaving the weak side defensive tackle (our 3-technique/undertackle) isolated against a guard. In many ways, on passing downs, you've schemed yourself a third defensive end.

Sapp wasn't the first player to ride the undertackle position to NFL fame and fortune. Before the birth of the Tampa-2, the Minnesota Vikings (under Floyd Peters and Kiffin) paired defensive end Chris Doleman and undertackle Keith Millard in a stunting under front defense. In 1989, Millard set a record for sacks by interior defensive linemen (18) that still stands today.

The lineage of great undertackle includes many of the league's other most successful pass rushing defensive tackles. John Randle, the first undertackle in what would become the Tampa-2 defense, racked up nine consecutive seasons of ten or more sacks. La'Roi Glover's 17 sack season in 2000 came as an undertackle. Kevin Williams, Rod Coleman, Vonnie Holliday, Tommie Harris? All have had very successful seasons playing 3-technique on defenses frequently using underfronts during the last five years. The Giants nickel pass rush that used four defensive ends to wreak havoc on offensive lines early in 2007 frequently moved Osi Umenyiora or Justin Tuck into undertackle-like roles.

Originally Posted by Marrdro

C2 yes, T2 no.

Remember there is a difference between the two schemes and the way the UT/DT/0-1 tech and MLB are used are the differences.

I wish I could figure out how to use the search funtion to actually find something. I'd pull up that thread I started this summer that explained all that.

the defensive philosophy of the Tampa Two was the mixing of a couple of concepts that had been around since 1977. Most teams play a form of the Bucs defense which is called the Cover 2, it is a basic zone defense in which players are responsible for covering receivers who enter their zones. The Tampa variety offers up a quick and speedy middle linebacker to cover the deep middle of the field in addition to the safeties who take a side, thus breaking up the deep field into thirds.

when I joined Monte Kiffin in Minnesota. Monte was coaching the inside linebackers when I arrived, and the vikings scheme was to rush the passer and have their secondary in man to man coverage. I had always favored zone coverage, and I began to introduce these concepts. Monte in turn, taught me about his 'One Gap' style the Vikings used with their linemen and linebackers. Most teams ask their linemen to protect two gaps, playing head up on an offensive lineman, stalemating him, and then being able to tackle a ball carrier on either side of that lineman (sound familiar? This is what Jim Bates wanted to do). The Vikings only asked their linemen to handle ONE side of the offensive lineman, using the linebacker and safeties to compensate. Because they never had to take on a man directly, Minnesota's linemen didnt have to be as big, and were generally smaller than the men on the other side of the ball and quicker. They were exceptional pass rushers. "

If your going to run Dungy's Tampa Two, a certain breed of Defensive lineman is a must - Bucs Nation

I still want to see more from Guion. If you don't use a so-called Warpig and opt for a more athletic NT then you would expect to see him get some penetration. I am not talking about sacks but at least bust up a running play in the backfield.

Originally Posted by Freakout

I still want to see more from Guion. If you don't use a so-called Warpig and opt for a more athletic NT then you would expect to see him get some penetration. I am not talking about sacks but at least bust up a running play in the backfield.

Guion has more tackles/assists than JA, the same amount as K-will & only 1 less than Robison.

Originally Posted by singersp

If your going to run Dungy's Tampa Two, a certain breed of Defensive lineman is a must - Bucs Nation

I would love for us to at least go back to the Peters/Kiffin philosophy of defense if we are sticking to a 4-3 zone type defense. We actually could have hired John Teerlinck in the off season to run the defensive line but for some reason passed even though he worked with Frazier at Indy if I am not mistaken. He did a great job with guys like Randle, Millard, Doleman and then with Freeney/Mathis.

I would much rather have us run the single gap defense and get a faster, more athletic MLB than to go the route of the warpig DT. The league is getting faster and the field is getting stretched more with the passing game and that is why we need to get faster and more athletic in in LB and interior DL positions.

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

I would much rather have us run the single gap defense and get a faster, more athletic MLB than to go the route of the warpig DT. The league is getting faster and the field is getting stretched more with the passing game and that is why we need to get faster and more athletic in in LB and interior DL positions.

IMO, with today's fast, athletic QB's, the traditional huge warpig, capable of busting down lines, stuffing RB's who are trying to run up the middle & getting pressure on pocket passers, is not the way to go. Most are just too slow to chase down the likes of an Andrew Luck or RGIII. Hell, we had a hard time just chasing down Alex Smith with our DE's.