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  1. #51
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099530
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099523
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099520
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099494
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099483
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099477
    There was never one single failure point...it was always a collective effort of fail...

    That said, I THINK I agree with Marrdro on this issue...the one about the Front 7 and the Secondary. While I am by no means satisfied with our secondary, I also believe that they were hung out to dry quite a bit by the front 7's failure to put pressure on the QB...especially by the front 4's inability to do it without help.

    Our secondary played over their heads all season. Everybody knows you can't maintain coverage all day long in the NFL, but our guys were expected to, based upon the lack of pressure the guys up front got. As a result, we would give up the 3rd and long shots as well as all the rest.

    This also, however, drives home my point about Edwards. If he was really all that good, he would have stood out while the other 3 faltered....he didn't. Instead, when they vanished, he did too. Either he really IS a product of the line he's on, or he's the biggest idiot in the world for not taking an opportunity to really shine and making the most of it.

    I tend to think it's a combination of the two, with the emphasis on the former.

    Caine
    And not just cause you agree with me, but its nice to see the Old Caine coming around some more of late.

    Quick question, .....did you see the stats/article yet today that puts our LB'rs up there as statistically (Leber was number one) in getting pressure on the QB?
    I skimmed it, but I'm not sure I buy into it. They tout "QB Pressures" as the defining element, but what was the actual result of the play? A "Pressured" QB can still make a play....well, except for Jackson.

    So, unless the play ended in an INC or a Sack/INT, I think the stats are misleading.

    Caine
    Interesting, especially how you wove our boy TJ into the discussion. :P

    I traded some emails with the Profootballfocus guys, before they became a pay site and they defined a pressure as a play that caused the QB to deviate from his intended "Target" or something like that.

    Truth of the matter is, I corrected them on some of their stats (they missed some of our OL rotations last year) and they have guys just like you and me watching the games back then. I suspect/assume that now that they are a pay site they might have some better guys doing their leg work.
    How do they know what the intended target was?

    See. This is all someone's OPINION of what was originally intended versus what actually occurred. Then they try and sell their spin as gospel by claiming it's a statistic.

    It's not. Not really.

    It's their interpretation of events.

    I don't happen to agree with that.

    If the player got to the QB and sacked him, forced a fumble, an INT, or an incompletion, THAT would be a creditable play.

    If the pass was completed, or the QB tucked and ran and gained positive yards, then the "pressure" was ineffective.

    Caine
    Believe it or not, teams actually worked with them and gave the additional data (and tape) that they used.

    Thats why the, at first, refused to accept my game notes as proof they were wrong. They actually checked with the Vikes and found out I was right.

    I still have a few of their emails. I will PM them to you.
    Even so, if a QB deviates yet still makes a play, then the pressure was ineffective. IMO, pressure is only effective if it negates any positive effect from a play.

    Caine

  2. #52
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099530
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099523
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099520
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099494
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099483
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099477
    There was never one single failure point...it was always a collective effort of fail...

    That said, I THINK I agree with Marrdro on this issue...the one about the Front 7 and the Secondary. While I am by no means satisfied with our secondary, I also believe that they were hung out to dry quite a bit by the front 7's failure to put pressure on the QB...especially by the front 4's inability to do it without help.

    Our secondary played over their heads all season. Everybody knows you can't maintain coverage all day long in the NFL, but our guys were expected to, based upon the lack of pressure the guys up front got. As a result, we would give up the 3rd and long shots as well as all the rest.

    This also, however, drives home my point about Edwards. If he was really all that good, he would have stood out while the other 3 faltered....he didn't. Instead, when they vanished, he did too. Either he really IS a product of the line he's on, or he's the biggest idiot in the world for not taking an opportunity to really shine and making the most of it.

    I tend to think it's a combination of the two, with the emphasis on the former.

    Caine
    And not just cause you agree with me, but its nice to see the Old Caine coming around some more of late.

    Quick question, .....did you see the stats/article yet today that puts our LB'rs up there as statistically (Leber was number one) in getting pressure on the QB?
    I skimmed it, but I'm not sure I buy into it. They tout "QB Pressures" as the defining element, but what was the actual result of the play? A "Pressured" QB can still make a play....well, except for Jackson.

    So, unless the play ended in an INC or a Sack/INT, I think the stats are misleading.

    Caine
    Interesting, especially how you wove our boy TJ into the discussion. :P

    I traded some emails with the Profootballfocus guys, before they became a pay site and they defined a pressure as a play that caused the QB to deviate from his intended "Target" or something like that.

    Truth of the matter is, I corrected them on some of their stats (they missed some of our OL rotations last year) and they have guys just like you and me watching the games back then. I suspect/assume that now that they are a pay site they might have some better guys doing their leg work.
    How do they know what the intended target was?

    See. This is all someone's OPINION of what was originally intended versus what actually occurred. Then they try and sell their spin as gospel by claiming it's a statistic.

    It's not. Not really.

    It's their interpretation of events.

    I don't happen to agree with that.

    If the player got to the QB and sacked him, forced a fumble, an INT, or an incompletion, THAT would be a creditable play.

    If the pass was completed, or the QB tucked and ran and gained positive yards, then the "pressure" was ineffective.

    Caine
    Believe it or not, teams actually worked with them and gave the additional data (and tape) that they used.

    Thats why the, at first, refused to accept my game notes as proof they were wrong. They actually checked with the Vikes and found out I was right.

    I still have a few of their emails. I will PM them to you.
    Everybody has a random.:woohoo:

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