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  1. #21
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "slavinator" #1099291
    All I am saying is that the HC has an influence on the Defense and the style with which it plays. As to the individual calls and keys not so much, but they still have a say.

    Just like in Madden, you go in and set your team profile up. Ie our defense is a 4-3 Base by and large that runs the cover 2, focuses on stopping the run, and we try to get pressure with our front four, with limited blitzing.

    Chilly gets fired, Frazier takes the HC role and put Pagac in the mix. From there we see a varied look out of the 4-3 base, focus on stopping the run, but more blitzing. Which in hindsight couldve been to help cover up a dinged secondary.

    Either way to say that a HC doesnt influence the style his Defense plays is ridiculous. Even if it only boils down to the freedom they give their coordinators to handle their side of the ball.
    So do you believe Leslie had free reign of do you think the Chiller had his hands in the defense?
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  2. #22
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099292
    Don't bring Madden into the mix, you'll only confuse him.

    He's of the impression anybody that plays the game runs nothing but edge/outside runs, play action and four verticals, then blitz 8 every play, and they know nothing about real football, gap names, route numbering, player positioning, etc.
    Confuse me, with Madden. LOL.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #23
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1099386
    http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/24/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-linebackers/

    Pretty interesting article on blitzing and Pass Rush Production. I was surprised to see our trio towards the top of the lists...In 2010 Greenway came in 3rd with EJ 12th, but over the past 3 years combined, Ben Leber had the best production in the leage (according to this formula.) I hope we keep him around!

    That’s the 2010 study, now we’re upping the qualifying minimum to 200 and looking back at the past three years. We find 38 qualifiers to go under the microscope; a class headed by a surprising candidate. Indeed, it’s Ben Leber who leads the way, and is one of two Minnesota Vikings in the Top 5. The only reason another one (E.J. Henderson) isn’t in there alongside them (his PRP is actually better than Chad Greenway’s) is his lack of snaps. What this should tell you is that, in simple terms, the Vikings blitz efficiently. That, and the fact that it doesn’t hurt having a trio of pass rushers like Kevin Williams, Ray Edwards and Jared Allen up front. Extra focus on them is bound to make life a little easier for the guys coming from deeper.
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    One thing to consider......Why do we send our LB'rs so much? In our scheme our LB'rs should be dropping back and helping in the short zones (quick passes/3 step drops) and the pressure should be coming from our front 4. Instead all 3 of them are ranked pretty high when it comes to pressuring the QB.

    Maybe our front 4 aren't as good as some people seem to think around here? :whistle:

    One could then, almost take it to another level, and say our CB's are being hung a bit when it comes to pass coverage as they are then trying to cover the short zones as well when the LB has to vacate that zone to rush the QB.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099406
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1099386
    http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/24/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-linebackers/

    Pretty interesting article on blitzing and Pass Rush Production. I was surprised to see our trio towards the top of the lists...In 2010 Greenway came in 3rd with EJ 12th, but over the past 3 years combined, Ben Leber had the best production in the leage (according to this formula.) I hope we keep him around!

    That’s the 2010 study, now we’re upping the qualifying minimum to 200 and looking back at the past three years. We find 38 qualifiers to go under the microscope; a class headed by a surprising candidate. Indeed, it’s Ben Leber who leads the way, and is one of two Minnesota Vikings in the Top 5. The only reason another one (E.J. Henderson) isn’t in there alongside them (his PRP is actually better than Chad Greenway’s) is his lack of snaps. What this should tell you is that, in simple terms, the Vikings blitz efficiently. That, and the fact that it doesn’t hurt having a trio of pass rushers like Kevin Williams, Ray Edwards and Jared Allen up front. Extra focus on them is bound to make life a little easier for the guys coming from deeper.
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    One thing to consider......Why do we send our LB'rs so much? In our scheme our LB'rs should be dropping back and helping in the short zones (quick passes/3 step drops) and the pressure should be coming from our front 4. Instead all 3 of them are ranked pretty high when it comes to pressuring the QB.

    Maybe our front 4 aren't as good as some people seem to think around here? :whistle:

    One could then, almost take it to another level, and say our CB's are being hung a bit when it comes to pass coverage as they are then trying to cover the short zones as well when the LB has to vacate that zone to rush the QB.
    Simple answer.

    We have one pass rushing RDE, an all-around decent LDE, a well-rounded DT, and a big, strong, but slow NT. We all know Pat isn't a guy to get pressure, he just eats up blockers. I bet on a pass play they could stick one man on him and buy enough time to pass. That leaves at least 4 blockers in to block 3 other guys.

    Plus, No scheme in the league runs the same play every time. We run a Tampa-2, sure, but that doesn't mean we ONLY run a 4-3 T-2. We mix it up, different personell, different assignments, sometimes we go man, zone, blitz, zone blitz (for some reason with pat dropping back...)

  5. #25
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099407
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099406
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1099386
    http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/24/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-linebackers/

    Pretty interesting article on blitzing and Pass Rush Production. I was surprised to see our trio towards the top of the lists...In 2010 Greenway came in 3rd with EJ 12th, but over the past 3 years combined, Ben Leber had the best production in the leage (according to this formula.) I hope we keep him around!

    That’s the 2010 study, now we’re upping the qualifying minimum to 200 and looking back at the past three years. We find 38 qualifiers to go under the microscope; a class headed by a surprising candidate. Indeed, it’s Ben Leber who leads the way, and is one of two Minnesota Vikings in the Top 5. The only reason another one (E.J. Henderson) isn’t in there alongside them (his PRP is actually better than Chad Greenway’s) is his lack of snaps. What this should tell you is that, in simple terms, the Vikings blitz efficiently. That, and the fact that it doesn’t hurt having a trio of pass rushers like Kevin Williams, Ray Edwards and Jared Allen up front. Extra focus on them is bound to make life a little easier for the guys coming from deeper.
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    One thing to consider......Why do we send our LB'rs so much? In our scheme our LB'rs should be dropping back and helping in the short zones (quick passes/3 step drops) and the pressure should be coming from our front 4. Instead all 3 of them are ranked pretty high when it comes to pressuring the QB.

    Maybe our front 4 aren't as good as some people seem to think around here? :whistle:

    One could then, almost take it to another level, and say our CB's are being hung a bit when it comes to pass coverage as they are then trying to cover the short zones as well when the LB has to vacate that zone to rush the QB.
    Simple answer.

    We have one pass rushing RDE, an all-around decent LDE, a well-rounded DT, and a big, strong, but slow NT. We all know Pat isn't a guy to get pressure, he just eats up blockers. I bet on a pass play they could stick one man on him and buy enough time to pass. That leaves at least 4 blockers in to block 3 other guys.

    Plus, No scheme in the league runs the same play every time. We run a Tampa-2, sure, but that doesn't mean we ONLY run a 4-3 T-2. We mix it up, different personell, different assignments, sometimes we go man, zone, blitz, zone blitz (for some reason with pat dropping back...)
    Of course it seems to be a simple answer, but to give it you have to deviate from one basic principle.......

    Our scheme dictates that the pressure comes (predominantly) from the front 4 with very little help from the LB'rs or DB's.

    Again, it sure seems like our vaunted front 4 needs alot more help than some on here want to admit.

    On a side note, do we run a T2 or a C2? :whistle:
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #26
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Notable Tampa/Cover-2 teams:

    Chicago Bears: Urlacher: 4 sacks, Briggs: 2 sacks
    Indy: Actually very few sacks, but they do have two top-tier pass rushers at end. Can't defend the run worth a crap though
    Tampa: Hayes: 4 sacks
    Seattle: Currey(3.5)

    Linebackers don't get sacks by dropping into coverage.

  7. #27
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099410
    Notable Tampa/Cover-2 teams:

    Chicago Bears: Urlacher: 4 sacks, Briggs: 2 sacks
    Indy: Actually very few sacks, but they do have two top-tier pass rushers at end. Can't defend the run worth a crap though
    Tampa: Hayes: 4 sacks
    Seattle: Currey(3.5)

    Linebackers don't get sacks by dropping into coverage.
    There is the key my friend.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #28
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099409
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099407
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099406
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1099386
    http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/24/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-linebackers/

    Pretty interesting article on blitzing and Pass Rush Production. I was surprised to see our trio towards the top of the lists...In 2010 Greenway came in 3rd with EJ 12th, but over the past 3 years combined, Ben Leber had the best production in the leage (according to this formula.) I hope we keep him around!

    That’s the 2010 study, now we’re upping the qualifying minimum to 200 and looking back at the past three years. We find 38 qualifiers to go under the microscope; a class headed by a surprising candidate. Indeed, it’s Ben Leber who leads the way, and is one of two Minnesota Vikings in the Top 5. The only reason another one (E.J. Henderson) isn’t in there alongside them (his PRP is actually better than Chad Greenway’s) is his lack of snaps. What this should tell you is that, in simple terms, the Vikings blitz efficiently. That, and the fact that it doesn’t hurt having a trio of pass rushers like Kevin Williams, Ray Edwards and Jared Allen up front. Extra focus on them is bound to make life a little easier for the guys coming from deeper.
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    One thing to consider......Why do we send our LB'rs so much? In our scheme our LB'rs should be dropping back and helping in the short zones (quick passes/3 step drops) and the pressure should be coming from our front 4. Instead all 3 of them are ranked pretty high when it comes to pressuring the QB.

    Maybe our front 4 aren't as good as some people seem to think around here? :whistle:

    One could then, almost take it to another level, and say our CB's are being hung a bit when it comes to pass coverage as they are then trying to cover the short zones as well when the LB has to vacate that zone to rush the QB.
    Simple answer.

    We have one pass rushing RDE, an all-around decent LDE, a well-rounded DT, and a big, strong, but slow NT. We all know Pat isn't a guy to get pressure, he just eats up blockers. I bet on a pass play they could stick one man on him and buy enough time to pass. That leaves at least 4 blockers in to block 3 other guys.

    Plus, No scheme in the league runs the same play every time. We run a Tampa-2, sure, but that doesn't mean we ONLY run a 4-3 T-2. We mix it up, different personell, different assignments, sometimes we go man, zone, blitz, zone blitz (for some reason with pat dropping back...)
    Of course it seems to be a simple answer, but to give it you have to deviate from one basic principle.......

    Our scheme dictates that the pressure comes (predominantly) from the front 4 with very little help from the LB'rs or DB's.

    Again, it sure seems like our vaunted front 4 needs alot more help than some on here want to admit.

    On a side note, do we run a T2 or a C2? :whistle:
    Yes, I get the point of the T2 scheme.

    But we don't run it all the time.

    Furthermore, we don't seem to run the 'textbook T2"

    T2 calls for CB's that bump receivers off the line, to disrupt timing allowing the Front four to get pressure.

    T2 also calls for fast LB's capable of covering a large amount of area.

    Lastly, T2 calls for two good pass-covering Safeties who can be left alone in their respective half/thirds.

    We really don't do any that well. We really seem to run a bastardized version of the T2.

    We have/had a big 'warpig' NT who's not a pass rusher, but clogs up running lanes. We've got a good pass rushing DT, a RDE and a decent LDE, but we do run alot of stunts, zone blitzes, etc. Things you don't always see in the T2.

    One of the key, most commonly stressed points of the T2, is having FOUR pass rushing linemen, which we do not have. When you are missing a key point of your shceme, you have to make changes for it to work.

  9. #29
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099411
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099410
    Notable Tampa/Cover-2 teams:

    Chicago Bears: Urlacher: 4 sacks, Briggs: 2 sacks
    Indy: Actually very few sacks, but they do have two top-tier pass rushers at end. Can't defend the run worth a crap though
    Tampa: Hayes: 4 sacks
    Seattle: Currey(3.5)

    Linebackers don't get sacks by dropping into coverage.
    There is the key my friend.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the colts finished near the bottom of the league in defense for the better part of the last decade?

    They get the pressure, but they also haven't had corners or LB's taht really do the job for them.

    I just think in general the T2 is a dying defense, which just simply doesn't work.

    When they DID play good defense, they played a more aggressive style, keeping Bob Sanders down in the box, filling in on the run and taking receivers heads off. Without him, their defense has been feeble to say the least.

  10. #30
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    Re: Fred Pagac believes in the blitz

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099412
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099409
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099407
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099406
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1099386
    http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/24/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-linebackers/

    Pretty interesting article on blitzing and Pass Rush Production. I was surprised to see our trio towards the top of the lists...In 2010 Greenway came in 3rd with EJ 12th, but over the past 3 years combined, Ben Leber had the best production in the leage (according to this formula.) I hope we keep him around!

    That’s the 2010 study, now we’re upping the qualifying minimum to 200 and looking back at the past three years. We find 38 qualifiers to go under the microscope; a class headed by a surprising candidate. Indeed, it’s Ben Leber who leads the way, and is one of two Minnesota Vikings in the Top 5. The only reason another one (E.J. Henderson) isn’t in there alongside them (his PRP is actually better than Chad Greenway’s) is his lack of snaps. What this should tell you is that, in simple terms, the Vikings blitz efficiently. That, and the fact that it doesn’t hurt having a trio of pass rushers like Kevin Williams, Ray Edwards and Jared Allen up front. Extra focus on them is bound to make life a little easier for the guys coming from deeper.
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    One thing to consider......Why do we send our LB'rs so much? In our scheme our LB'rs should be dropping back and helping in the short zones (quick passes/3 step drops) and the pressure should be coming from our front 4. Instead all 3 of them are ranked pretty high when it comes to pressuring the QB.

    Maybe our front 4 aren't as good as some people seem to think around here? :whistle:

    One could then, almost take it to another level, and say our CB's are being hung a bit when it comes to pass coverage as they are then trying to cover the short zones as well when the LB has to vacate that zone to rush the QB.
    Simple answer.

    We have one pass rushing RDE, an all-around decent LDE, a well-rounded DT, and a big, strong, but slow NT. We all know Pat isn't a guy to get pressure, he just eats up blockers. I bet on a pass play they could stick one man on him and buy enough time to pass. That leaves at least 4 blockers in to block 3 other guys.

    Plus, No scheme in the league runs the same play every time. We run a Tampa-2, sure, but that doesn't mean we ONLY run a 4-3 T-2. We mix it up, different personell, different assignments, sometimes we go man, zone, blitz, zone blitz (for some reason with pat dropping back...)
    Of course it seems to be a simple answer, but to give it you have to deviate from one basic principle.......

    Our scheme dictates that the pressure comes (predominantly) from the front 4 with very little help from the LB'rs or DB's.

    Again, it sure seems like our vaunted front 4 needs alot more help than some on here want to admit.

    On a side note, do we run a T2 or a C2? :whistle:
    Yes, I get the point of the T2 scheme.

    But we don't run it all the time.

    Furthermore, we don't seem to run the 'textbook T2"

    T2 calls for CB's that bump receivers off the line, to disrupt timing allowing the Front four to get pressure.

    T2 also calls for fast LB's capable of covering a large amount of area.

    Lastly, T2 calls for two good pass-covering Safeties who can be left alone in their respective half/thirds.

    We really don't do any that well. We really seem to run a bastardized version of the T2.

    We have/had a big 'warpig' NT who's not a pass rusher, but clogs up running lanes. We've got a good pass rushing DT, a RDE and a decent LDE, but we do run alot of stunts, zone blitzes, etc. Things you don't always see in the T2.

    One of the key, most commonly stressed points of the T2, is having FOUR pass rushing linemen, which we do not have. When you are missing a key point of your shceme, you have to make changes for it to work.
    All good points my friend, but you have to think about why we "Appear" to run a bastardized version........

    It all gets back to one point.....

    We have/had a big 'warpig' NT who isn't a pass rusher anymore
    Phat Pat, up until about 2 years ago wasn't going to get you a sack but he could still collapse the pocket (even with 2 on him) on passing plays. He can't do that anymore.

    This allows teams, as you said, to shift/mix pass protection assignments which in turn forces us to bring pressure from someplace else (i.e. LB'rs) which then opens the underneath stuff.

    When you open the underneath stuff, the last thing you want to do is to have your CB press at the line and route the reciever to the zone that there is no LB'r in.

    This then causes your CB to stay with the guy a bit longer to see if he is going to go short or turn upfield, which then significantly increases the "Handover" area/zone that the S and CB need to work in.

    Now your the poor S, and instead of just playing 1/4rs, your now playing 1/3rds or even 1/2's which makes it look like you take poor angles.....

    In the end, if we had a DL that could get pressure on the QB, all by themselves, as dictated by the scheme, the backend wouldn't have to adapt/modify their play all the time to make up for the lack of production on the front end.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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