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  1. #41
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Quite simply put, they'll try and blitz Ponder & rattle his cage. As more film on him becomes available, those defenses will be honed to use those tendencies to their advantage.


    I have a hard time believing that defenses will prepare the same against a QB regardless of who he is.

    Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Brady or Jackson?

    How about the Colts. Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Peyton or Collins or Painter?
    You didn't answer the question. Do they need to wait until game time for the rest of the year to announce the starter so the defense can't install their exotic blitzes or will you call frazier an idiot if he announce Ponder as the starter for the rest of the season because he tipped his hand?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    You have it backwards Marty. They are bringing the blitz not because the DL is not doing their job but because the coverage is too slow and they are trying to get to the QB before he can get to the secondary. No DL in the league can get to a QB fast enough when the zones are that big and the coverage is that loose. Get faster defenders who can actually get within 3 yards of a WR and you will see the QB holding the ball a click longer and then the DL will be putting him on the ground all day long.
    I have nothing backwards.

    The whole C2/T2 defense is designed to be effective but only if your front 4 can get pressure alone.

    Will it give up alot of short passes to recievers? Sure, but it doesn't give up the deep ball and forces offenses to be patient dinking and dunking down the field.

    The term "Cover 2" derives from the defensive strategy of separating the deep half of the field (starting at about 15 yards from the line of scrimmage) into two zones. Each of these deep zones is played by one of the safeties. Bud Carson, defensive coach for the Steelers "Steel Curtain" teams is said to have been the originator of this scheme. The four defensive linemen rush the quarterback, while the three linebackers and two cornerbacks separate the part of the field in front of the safeties into five smaller zones. Therefore, the Cover 2 is an entirely zone defense (no man-to-man coverage) that is deployed out a basic 4-3 personnel set (4 linemen, three linebackers).
    The second flaw is that you are completely reliant on your four defensive linemen to create pressure on the quarterback. With athletic and smart players, and the right grouping of personnel, these flaws can be reduced significantly.
    Understanding NFL Football: The Cover 2 Defense - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

    Lots of other articles out there that you can read that basically say the same thing.

    As to our "Sack Leader". Watch when JA gets his sacks. Not many come with just our Front 4 getting the pressure. Almost all of them come when we have atleast 2 LB'rs show a "Mug" look in the A or A and B gaps presnap.

    Again, once you start bringing help, you aren't playing the C2 anymore. Your playing either a Cover 3 (Cloud) or a man to man press look. When you start doing that, as you said, our defense can get carved up.

    Blame the secondary if you want, but reality is, our scheme won't work without our DL doing its job. Even though we have some sacks, it isn't, for the most part, doing its job.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    I have nothing backwards.

    The whole C2/T2 defense is designed to be effective but only if your front 4 can get pressure alone.

    Will it give up alot of short passes to recievers? Sure, but it doesn't give up the deep ball and forces offenses to be patient dinking and dunking down the field.





    Understanding NFL Football: The Cover 2 Defense - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

    Lots of other articles out there that you can read that basically say the same thing.

    As to our "Sack Leader". Watch when JA gets his sacks. Not many come with just our Front 4 getting the pressure. Almost all of them come when we have atleast 2 LB'rs show a "Mug" look in the A or A and B gaps presnap.

    Again, once you start bringing help, you aren't playing the C2 anymore. Your playing either a Cover 3 (Cloud) or a man to man press look. When you start doing that, as you said, our defense can get carved up.

    Blame the secondary if you want, but reality is, our scheme won't work without our DL doing its job. Even though we have some sacks, it isn't, for the most part, doing its job.
    Trust me, I understand the philosophy of the C2/T2. Where we apparently differ is that I understand that you are never going to have a situation where the DL is going to get pressure 100% of the time and dominate every play.

    If the DL is so inadequate, then name me 10 teams you would trade their DL straight up for ours and that would magically make our LB and 2ndary look good.

    Also, name me one team that plays T2 that stays in that formation exclusively without going to your beloved cloud package or C3 etc. You have to be flexible and if teams keep in an extra blocker to negate a 4 man rush you need the speed and talent( along with the coaching) to be able to adapt and adjust and still not get burned. No team in the league runs out of their base defense 100%.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Trust me, I understand the philosophy of the C2/T2. Where we apparently differ is that I understand that you are never going to have a situation where the DL is going to get pressure 100% of the time and dominate every play.

    If the DL is so inadequate, then name me 10 teams you would trade their DL straight up for ours and that would magically make our LB and 2ndary look good.

    Also, name me one team that plays T2 that stays in that formation exclusively without going to your beloved cloud package or C3 etc. You have to be flexible and if teams keep in an extra blocker to negate a 4 man rush you need the speed and talent( along with the coaching) to be able to adapt and adjust and still not get burned. No team in the league runs out of their base defense 100%.
    Two things, ........

    1. I have never once said "Exclusively". I am more than aware that our DL will need help. I think you will remember hearing me beeeeyyyyyacth and complain how shitty we are at disguising our blitz's. We suck at it. When I am hacking on our DL I am talking about times were our DL can't beat the OL when there is no help in there.

    JA was left unblocked for 4 or 5 plays last week for cripes sake and that was against the worst OL in the league.

    2. Lions in a heartbeat if your asking 4-3. Houston if they had Mario back healthy. Give the Pats another 3 or 4 games and they will have the 4-3 back under control again. 3-4, Ravens (minus the murder).
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Two things, ........

    1. I have never once said "Exclusively". I am more than aware that our DL will need help. I think you will remember hearing me beeeeyyyyyacth and complain how shitty we are at disguising our blitz's. We suck at it. When I am hacking on our DL I am talking about times were our DL can't beat the OL when there is no help in there.

    JA was left unblocked for 4 or 5 plays last week for cripes sake and that was against the worst OL in the league.

    2. Lions in a heartbeat if your asking 4-3. Houston if they had Mario back healthy. Give the Pats another 3 or 4 games and they will have the 4-3 back under control again. 3-4, Ravens (minus the murder).
    PF asks for 10, you come up with 4 of the best units in the league.

    What I find amazing, is you seem so content with shitty play from other units (OL, Safety, Corner, FB, etc), but when it comes to DL, seems you want pressure every single play. Newsflash... it doesn't happen that way.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    PF asks for 10, you come up with 4 of the best units in the league.
    Two thoughts....

    1. Maybe I can't come up with 10 that I like better than our DL. That thought occur to you? Look, I don't hate our DL. I just wish we could either get it to produce based on the scheme we run or get the frick away from the C2 scheme.

    Problem is, we don't have the DB's to get away from it and we don't have the DL that can play it without a 0 tech NT/DT.

    2. Are you saying the Pats Defense is one of the best units? Wow, as always, you seem to miss the point.

    What I find amazing, is you seem so content with shitty play from other units (OL, Safety, Corner, FB, etc), but when it comes to DL, seems you want pressure every single play. Newsflash... it doesn't happen that way
    Speaking of missing the point (aka being confused), our OL plays well enough to execute the scheme and is by far and away not shitty.

    And show me one place were I ever said I want pressure on every play from our DL.

    Hang in there my friend. I still like talking with you though. I'd kill to get up there this weekend to suds a few with ya.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Two thoughts....

    1. Maybe I can't come up with 10 that I like better than our DL. That thought occur to you? Look, I don't hate our DL. I just wish we could either get it to produce based on the scheme we run or get the frick away from the C2 scheme.

    Problem is, we don't have the DB's to get away from it and we don't have the DL that can play it without a 0 tech NT/DT.

    2. Are you saying the Pats Defense is one of the best units? Wow, as always, you seem to miss the point.


    Speaking of missing the point (aka being confused), our OL plays well enough to execute the scheme and is by far and away not shitty.

    And show me one place were I ever said I want pressure on every play from our DL.

    Hang in there my friend. I still like talking with you though. I'd kill to get up there this weekend to suds a few with ya.
    In summary, the simple solution to the problem is to get better play from the linebackers and safeties. Our DL will look better, our corner's will look better and opposing QB's will not have such an easy time carving us up at will.

    The DL is not the issue, it is our strength and because of it team's plan to neutralize it. Unfortunately for us, we have no answer to it.

    Same issue is mirrored on our offense. it is one dimensional, take away our running game and force us to pass. Unfortunately, we have no answer to it.

    Is there a easier team in the league to gameplan against then the Vikings? I don't think so.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Righhhhht! Because the Packers have personnel at Winter Park watching Vikings closed practices.
    They don't need to. But think of the numbers of people you are talking about. Players, coaches, Vikings officials, reporters, the janitor, waterboy, on and on and on. And let's not forget McNabb himself. Do you really think just based on the sheer number of people involved that everyone can keep a secret? Maybe back in the day of Grant and Lombardi, because there was no technology, but not now.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Two things, ........

    1. I have never once said "Exclusively". I am more than aware that our DL will need help. I think you will remember hearing me beeeeyyyyyacth and complain how shitty we are at disguising our blitz's. We suck at it. When I am hacking on our DL I am talking about times were our DL can't beat the OL when there is no help in there.
    But that is not what you are saying. You are saying the DL is a weaker unit than the LB or secondary and as far as I can see you are the only person who will make that case. I personally don't think the unit is bulletproof and I know they are going to have a mistake here or there, but the mistakes they will make and the deficiencies they have are not as great as the two units behind them.

    JA was left unblocked for 4 or 5 plays last week for cripes sake and that was against the worst OL in the league.
    After watching that game there is no way their OL is worse than ours.


    Finally- some meat for the discussion:
    2. Lions in a heartbeat if your asking 4-3
    You do realize both Allen and Robison have more sacks/tackles than Vandenbosh don't you? Heck, VDB is the highest rated player on their line and he ranks 17 on NFL.Com and both of our DE's are higher than that.


    . Houston if they had Mario back healthy.
    Allen is rated higher than Mario and Robison is right there with more tackles ( even though he won't hold up in the run game right?) and only has .5 fewer sacks.

    The rest of their line is nothing better than what we have.


    Give the Pats another 3 or 4 games and they will have the 4-3 back under control again
    .
    That is yet to be seen. Besides your fatass Wilfork you would take their DE's over ours? Interesting. Do they get pressure every play so the DB's don't have to blitz? Look at their stats again my friend.....


    3-4, Ravens (minus the murder).
    A 3-4 team? Come on Marty- there is a boatload of 4-3 teams you must be drooling over who would be better than our guys up front.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    In summary, the simple solution to the problem is to get better play from the linebackers and safeties. Our DL will look better, our corner's will look better and opposing QB's will not have such an easy time carving us up at will.

    The DL is not the issue, it is our strength and because of it team's plan to neutralize it. Unfortunately for us, we have no answer to it.

    Same issue is mirrored on our offense. it is one dimensional, take away our running game and force us to pass. Unfortunately, we have no answer to it.

    Is there a easier team in the league to gameplan against then the Vikings? I don't think so.
    Good post.

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