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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Don't confuse McNabb's ineptness with him being rattled. Teams do & will prepare differently against a rookie QB than the do a veteran.

    Trying to rattle & confuse a rookie QB may be a cookie cutter approach, but that is still what you try & do. You simply can't blow it off & believe rattling him won't work. There's a reason most teams try & do exactly that.

    Will he get rattled & confused? That remains to be seen, but rest assured, they'll try exactly that. You also can't bank on him not getting rattled because he didn't against the Bears who not only are one of the worst teams in the league against the pass & the run, but it was also during garbage time. How many of their starters on defense were even still in there?
    Two things.

    1. Dnabb got rattle twice against the Bores. First time was when he fell on the ground in the fetal position like a little baby for a Saftey without even stepping forward to get out of the endzone (there was room to do it) and when he ran away from Peppers and didn't throw the ball away. ln short, all QBs get rattled, even seasoned vets.

    2. Go look at the tape. Ponders first series was against their starters. I kindof laughed how quickly they got them out after he started to make them look bad.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Key to the play was for Griff to keep Hester inside long enough for the S to get there on the blitz and for the other S to get over for help if he didn't.
    Yeah. Too bad that our secondary doesn't have the speed to pull off those types of scenarios.
    The blitzing S was too slow to get to the QB.
    The CB was too slow to keep up with the WR once the other S didn't have the speed to get to the WR across the middle. Looks like we were 0-3 in the speed dept.

    Both S's failed but because everyone seems to think we have shut down corners they hack on the corner for poor play when he actually did exactly what he was supposed to do in the scheme.
    Well, if both Safeties failed then our only hoe is that the CB can do a little more to prevent the play from going wrong. But we don't have enough speed to mask those weaknesses and offenses know that and exploit us. Hence, we should really look at getting faster players who can negate some of those vulnerabilities.



    Same thing applies to the Saftey on Dnabb. Everyone looks at Sully when in fact he did exactly what he was supposed to do, push the guy into Hutch's gap and then engage the MLB coming on the blitz. Gaff on Hutch, not Sully, again, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
    I guess I didn't see too many hacking on Sully for that play. I know I didn't. But then again the whole OL is in shambles so singling out one individual in a sea of ineptitude seems pointless anyway.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Key to the play was for Griff to keep Hester inside long enough for the S to get there on the blitz and for the other S to get over for help if he didn't.

    Both S's failed but because everyone seems to think we have shut down corners they hack on the corner for poor play when he actually did exactly what he was supposed to do in the scheme.

    Same thing applies to the Saftey on Dnabb. Everyone looks at Sully when in fact he did exactly what he was supposed to do, push the guy into Hutch's gap and then engage the MLB coming on the blitz. Gaff on Hutch, not Sully, again, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
    Again, you two keep dwelling on that one play as if that's the only time he's gotten burned, blew a tackle or was to damn slow to make a play.

    Cedric is much slower now and is more of a liability than an asset. Why the love fest for him continues is beyond me.

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Yeah. Too bad that our secondary doesn't have the speed to pull off those types of scenarios.
    The blitzing S was too slow to get to the QB.
    The CB was too slow to keep up with the WR once the other S didn't have the speed to get to the WR across the middle. Looks like we were 0-3 in the speed dept.

    Well, if both Safeties failed then our only hoe is that the CB can do a little more to prevent the play from going wrong. But we don't have enough speed to mask those weaknesses and offenses know that and exploit us. Hence, we should really look at getting faster players who can negate some of those vulnerabilities.
    Keep in mind something I continually preach on here. Our guys on the backend are built to play 1/4'rs in the C2. You don't need speed to do that. You just need to keep them in their zones.

    Same applies to our LB'rs. They have been hacked on by posters on here as well as in the press for being slow in coverage. Again, they have enough speed to drop into those short zones.

    Were we get into trouble is when you take one of them out of that zone (be it a CB, S or LB) to help the DL get pressure and now that speed (or lack thereof) is/can be exposed. Teams like the Jets can afford to expose their CB's. They have some of the rare breed that have the ability to be shutdown CB's. Notice I said rare breed. There just aren't alot of them running around, thats why the C2/T2 was invented.

    It allows coaches to take slower players and use them to defend against the pass effectively but you have to have pressure from your front 4 consistently to make it work. Our problem is, so far this year, and most of last, we haven't had that type of pressure. We use ALOT of help from our LB'rs, S's and Whinny.


    I guess I didn't see too many hacking on Sully for that play. I know I didn't. But then again the whole OL is in shambles so singling out one individual in a sea of ineptitude seems pointless anyway.
    Lots of yutz reporters writing articles on it.

    On a side note, if Dnabb would have made 5 or 6 more completions this year, our OL statistics would be alot better than they are. I think you will see a much different play (even though it will be the same) from our OL now that we have a QB that can get the ball, not only to the recievers, but to them in a manner that they can actually continue to run with it after they catch it.

    I've said it several times this year. Go watch the balls that were actually caught. I haven't figured out an actual average, but I bet it is over 95% of them were caught by a reciever standing still. Very few were caught by the reciever on the move in a designed route and of those that were caught in that manner, the reciever had to reach back, down, or over his head to catch it.

    Again, going on that premise, cause Dnabb has for the most part, had alot of time to throw, I think people will start to forget out the ole cliche' about our OL woes.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Why? Cause he did what he was supposed to do, bite on the move to the outside by Hester and couldn't recover in time to blanket him?

    You do realize he is supposed to keep to the outside on that and is supposed to rely on the S coming out of the cloud coverage to help.

    You want to hack on someone for that play, start with the DL that need help, the S that was sent to help and didn't get there cause he hesitated, but don't say that it is indicative of Griff being slow.

    He has run fine with bigger and better recievers this year, to the point he has been playing both sides.

    In short, Griff isn't our issue. He's a damn fine C2 CB. But hey, if your looking for him to stay with Hester like Revis could, I can see that, but Revis isn't a C2 CB now is he?
    Oh Marrdro.............You are pointing out ONE play in ONE game. The fact is that Griffin has NEVER been an asset to this team (which number 23 are you watching?!? ) He is slow and gets smoked more often than not, he will never be accused of being a good tackler (not even in the same ballpark as Winfield).......basically, on a good day he is inconsistent at best and a flat out disaster at worst. No one worries about him and most of the time the opposing team puts their best player on his watch.


    Personally, I don't think there is intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be any different from this one?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Don't confuse McNabb's ineptness with him being rattled. Teams do & will prepare differently against a rookie QB than the do a veteran.
    I guess the only other way to answer that is so what? Hell, if we hadn't brought McChunky in this year then every team would have been preparing for a rookie and I would be the house that we wouldn't have lost more than one more game so far this season than we have now.

    You have been a Vikings fan for a hell of a long time. Think back to all of the games where the Vikings have faced some unknown QB that they had a week to prepare for that came in and had a career game against us over the last 30 years.

    Trying to rattle & confuse a rookie QB may be a cookie cutter approach, but that is still what you try & do. You simply can't blow it off & believe rattling him won't work. There's a reason most teams try & do exactly that.
    Seriously- That is no different than what they would have done to old McBlowchunks. They know our OL is terrible and the QB is terrible and there is no way they were going to lay back in coverage and give him time to throw the ball either.

    Tell me this- If they are putting these exotic packages in that you speak of, where did they get the film that showed the QB's tendencies that tell them those are the right blitzes to call?

    If the blitzes are really that exotic, then why would they also not work on a vet QB who wouldn't have seen anything like that due to it's exoticness?

    Will he get rattled & confused? That remains to be seen, but rest assured, they'll try exactly that. You also can't bank on him not getting rattled because he didn't against the Bears who not only are one of the worst teams in the league against the pass & the run, but it was also during garbage time. How many of their starters on defense were even still in there?
    OK lets take this a step farther. How about the next game against Carolina or the Packers game after the bye. Unless something catastrophic happens Ponder will be the starter for those games and the teams will have both game film and even more time to install those exotic blitzes to confuse him.

    Are you saying that we should go the rest of the season not naming him the starter so that those teams don't have the time to install their exotic blitz packages against him? Or will he go through some dramatic QB cherry popping where after the first time he will be broke in and good to go for the rest of his career?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    Oh Marrdro.............You are pointing out ONE play in ONE game. The fact is that Griffin has NEVER been an asset to this team (which number 23 are you watching?!? ) He is slow and gets smoked more often than not, he will never be accused of being a good tackler (not even in the same ballpark as Winfield).......basically, on a good day he is inconsistent at best and a flat out disaster at worst. No one worries about him and most of the time the opposing team puts their best player on his watch.
    Uhhhhh Ohhhhh, I got the smart football chick after me......

    I agree, he isn't fast, but if I had access to the tape I could point out alot of intances were the ball wasn't thrown his way when he was facing the better reciever. Watch the games, he plays both CB spots alot and does it pretty well.

    Is he a shut down corner? No, not saying that. He is a damn fine C2 CB that plays the position pretty damn good. Its when he is asked to be a shut down CB that you see flaws in his game just like you do with Whinny.

    Wanna see someone slow? When your watching that tape to see how many throws don't go Griffs way, watch how many were completed to Whinny as the TE or slot guy came across the middle. In almost all instance you will see the reciever coming from the right side, to the left, and you will see Griff disengage his coverage in time to get over and make a tackle.

    Happens alot.

    One goog thing, I will admit, Cook seems to have the makings of a shutdown CB. Maybe we can find another one in the draft or via FA this year and then move Griff into the inside. I think he would be excellent in there.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    I guess the only other way to answer that is so what? Hell, if we hadn't brought McChunky in this year then every team would have been preparing for a rookie and I would be the house that we wouldn't have lost more than one more game so far this season than we have now.

    You have been a Vikings fan for a hell of a long time. Think back to all of the games where the Vikings have faced some unknown QB that they had a week to prepare for that came in and had a career game against us over the last 30 years.



    Seriously- That is no different than what they would have done to old McBlowchunks. They know our OL is terrible and the QB is terrible and there is no way they were going to lay back in coverage and give him time to throw the ball either.

    Tell me this- If they are putting these exotic packages in that you speak of, where did they get the film that showed the QB's tendencies that tell them those are the right blitzes to call?

    If the blitzes are really that exotic, then why would they also not work on a vet QB who wouldn't have seen anything like that due to it's exoticness?



    OK lets take this a step farther. How about the next game against Carolina or the Packers game after the bye. Unless something catastrophic happens Ponder will be the starter for those games and the teams will have both game film and even more time to install those exotic blitzes to confuse him.

    Are you saying that we should go the rest of the season not naming him the starter so that those teams don't have the time to install their exotic blitz packages against him? Or will he go through some dramatic QB cherry popping where after the first time he will be broke in and good to go for the rest of his career?
    Quite simply put, they'll try and blitz Ponder & rattle his cage. As more film on him becomes available, those defenses will be honed to use those tendencies to their advantage.

    I have a hard time believing that defenses will prepare the same against a QB regardless of who he is.

    Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Brady or Jackson?

    How about the Colts. Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Peyton or Collins or Painter?

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Uhhhhh Ohhhhh, I got the smart football chick after me......

    I agree, he isn't fast.

    Is he a shut down corner? No, not saying that.
    "Nuff" said

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Keep in mind something I continually preach on here. Our guys on the backend are built to play 1/4'rs in the C2. You don't need speed to do that. You just need to keep them in their zones.
    That would be believable if every QB we faced wasn't able to carve up the secondary and LB's when they wanted to. If you only want to bleed a slow death then slow players are fine. But speed can take a fairly large zone and shrink it to the point where a QB has much fewer options and if we had that we may not be at the bottom of the league is yards given up.

    Same applies to our LB'rs. They have been hacked on by posters on here as well as in the press for being slow in coverage. Again, they have enough speed to drop into those short zones.
    They have enough speed to get into an area and sometimes make a tackle after the pass is completed but they do not have the speed to shut down the opponents and force the QB to either hold the ball too long so the DL can get to him or to INT the ball because they were right with the WR/TE.
    As a defense they do not contest anything and a passive defense is not something I enjoy watching.

    Were we get into trouble is when you take one of them out of that zone (be it a CB, S or LB) to help the DL get pressure and now that speed (or lack thereof) is/can be exposed. Teams like the Jets can afford to expose their CB's. They have some of the rare breed that have the ability to be shutdown CB's. Notice I said rare breed. There just aren't alot of them running around, thats why the C2/T2 was invented.
    You have it backwards Marty. They are bringing the blitz not because the DL is not doing their job but because the coverage is too slow and they are trying to get to the QB before he can get to the secondary. No DL in the league can get to a QB fast enough when the zones are that big and the coverage is that loose. Get faster defenders who can actually get within 3 yards of a WR and you will see the QB holding the ball a click longer and then the DL will be putting him on the ground all day long.

    It allows coaches to take slower players and use them to defend against the pass effectively but you have to have pressure from your front 4 consistently to make it work. Our problem is, so far this year, and most of last, we haven't had that type of pressure. We use ALOT of help from our LB'rs, S's and Whinny.
    We have the NFL sack leader and a LDE that has more sacks at this point in the season than we have had in a generation from that position. The problem is not pressure, it is that the QB can throw at will all over the field and the 2ndary does nothing to stop it.


    Lots of yutz reporters writing articles on it.
    I thought you didn't pay attention to Yutz's.

    On a side note, if Dnabb would have made 5 or 6 more completions this year, our OL statistics would be alot better than they are. I think you will see a much different play (even though it will be the same) from our OL now that we have a QB that can get the ball, not only to the recievers, but to them in a manner that they can actually continue to run with it after they catch it.
    On a side note- if we would have won 5 more games we would be undefeated.

    I've said it several times this year. Go watch the balls that were actually caught. I haven't figured out an actual average, but I bet it is over 95% of them were caught by a reciever standing still. Very few were caught by the reciever on the move in a designed route and of those that were caught in that manner, the reciever had to reach back, down, or over his head to catch it.
    Yeah, if we still had Brett playing we would have been 5-1 right now..........

    Again, going on that premise, cause Dnabb has for the most part, had alot of time to throw, I think people will start to forget out the ole cliche' about our OL woes.
    Interesting because when Ponder came in I didn't see him getting a lot of time to throw. He made time by evading the rush caused by broken down pass protection but what he got was certainly not to the credit of the OL.

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