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  1. #21
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "Prophet" wrote:
    ..."We want to finish No. 1," Vikings Pro Bowl cornerback Antoine Winfield said.

    But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    To me the only statistic that really matters is pts/game given up.
    The Steelers came in #1 at 13.9 while the Vikings came in # 13 with 20.8 pts/game given up.
    The bottom of the pack was the Lions with 32.3.
    I agree that pts/game is the most important stat that matters when analyzing a defense, but it certaintly isn't the only one.

    Moreover, its stupid to use Pts/game to judge without removing special teams TDs and Pick-sixes. The Vikings defense gave up far less than 20 points per game last year. If you rank defenses only by defensive pts/game allowed, the Vikings rank in the top 5 easily.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  2. #22
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "MetalMike-LoudVike" wrote:
    YEAH all the pieces are there. Could use some better play from Ray Edwards or Brian Robison to complement Allen.
    They are? Other than Madieu Williams at S, Tyrell Johnson & the rest are still unproven.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #23
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "singersp" wrote:
    "MetalMike-LoudVike" wrote:
    YEAH all the pieces are there. Could use some better play from Ray Edwards or Brian Robison to complement Allen.
    They are? Other than Madieu Williams at S, Tyrell Johnson & the rest are still unproven.
    Don't say that, or the "theskyisfalling"-accusors will be out soon in full force.

  4. #24
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "V" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    ..."We want to finish No. 1," Vikings Pro Bowl cornerback Antoine Winfield said.

    But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    To me the only statistic that really matters is pts/game given up.
    The Steelers came in #1 at 13.9 while the Vikings came in # 13 with 20.8 pts/game given up.
    The bottom of the pack was the Lions with 32.3.
    I agree that pts/game is the most important stat that matters when analyzing a defense, but it certaintly isn't the only one.

    Moreover, its stupid to use Pts/game to judge without removing special teams TDs and Pick-sixes. The Vikings defense gave up far less than 20 points per game last year. If you rank defenses only by defensive pts/game allowed, the Vikings rank in the top 5 easily.
    Best stat is probably point differential... defensive points given up in the season minus defensive points scored in the season over 16.
    The problem with trying to exclude special teams is that most of the players on special teams are from the D, granted not always starting D.
    The true measure of a man is what he'd do knowing he'd never be found out.

  5. #25
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    ..."We want to finish No. 1," Vikings Pro Bowl cornerback Antoine Winfield said.

    But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    To me the only statistic that really matters is pts/game given up.
    The Steelers came in #1 at 13.9 while the Vikings came in # 13 with 20.8 pts/game given up.
    The bottom of the pack was the Lions with 32.3.
    Special team TDs and things like returned fumbles and ints
    by the other team's defense can skew this number. It's not the end all of defensive numbers.
    Yes, but, special teams are special teams.
    The standard for ranking NFL defenses is using total yards.
    None do justice to what is going on really, but, the bottom-line is how many pts does the defense give up and, conversely, how many pts does the offense put up.
    I think using total yards is equally as stupid.
    I gave you 3 example of how a defense has no impact on points being placed on the board. INTs for Tds, Fumble for Tds and special teams. If a team gives up 1 of these every week. The defense goes from giving up 14 points a game to giving up 21 points again. That difference is like going from 6th to about 15th. It's a big difference. The only way to gave defenses is to use all the stats. Run points against, passing points against. Yards against, sacks, Ints, etc. Thats how I guage how good a defense is.
    None do justice to what is going on really...
    That was my succinct quote dealing with the statistics and how they are used when trying to simply look at something.
    My comments were based entirely off the original article, not how I, personally, would use statistics in this situation.

    Even the for the weak-minded in the soft sciences and statistically challenged they can pull together some half-ass meaningless correlation showing that pts allowed are correlated to team success.
    Using only last years records the SB champions had the least pts allowed and the crappiest team in the league, the Lions, had the most pts allowed.
    Does it mean anything?
    No.
    But, according to the original article the quote was that they used yards given up...that statistic is a joke because the cover 2 can give up all kinds of yards in the middle of the field and not as many pts.

    Yes, taking out the ST scores like you and others have mentioned would give a more accurate depiction of how the D actually performed.
    That only makes sense.
    The originally quoted blurb was:

    ...But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    I was primarily fashioning my response off of that and saying that if I was going to pick one statistic, without actually analyzing the data, I would pick pts given up every time over total yards.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  6. #26
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "Prophet" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    ..."We want to finish No. 1," Vikings Pro Bowl cornerback Antoine Winfield said.

    But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    To me the only statistic that really matters is pts/game given up.
    The Steelers came in #1 at 13.9 while the Vikings came in # 13 with 20.8 pts/game given up.
    The bottom of the pack was the Lions with 32.3.
    Special team TDs and things like returned fumbles and ints
    by the other team's defense can skew this number. It's not the end all of defensive numbers.
    Yes, but, special teams are special teams.
    The standard for ranking NFL defenses is using total yards.
    None do justice to what is going on really, but, the bottom-line is how many pts does the defense give up and, conversely, how many pts does the offense put up.
    I think using total yards is equally as stupid.
    I gave you 3 example of how a defense has no impact on points being placed on the board. INTs for Tds, Fumble for Tds and special teams. If a team gives up 1 of these every week. The defense goes from giving up 14 points a game to giving up 21 points again. That difference is like going from 6th to about 15th. It's a big difference. The only way to gave defenses is to use all the stats. Run points against, passing points against. Yards against, sacks, Ints, etc. Thats how I guage how good a defense is.
    None do justice to what is going on really...
    That was my succinct quote dealing with the statistics and how they are used when trying to simply look at something.
    My comments were based entirely off the original article, not how I, personally, would use statistics in this situation.

    Even the for the weak-minded in the soft sciences and statistically challenged they can pull together some half-ass meaningless correlation showing that pts allowed are correlated to team success.
    Using only last years records the SB champions had the least pts allowed and the crappiest team in the league, the Lions, had the most pts allowed.
    Does it mean anything?
    No.
    But, according to the original article the quote was that they used yards given up...that statistic is a joke because the cover 2 can give up all kinds of yards in the middle of the field and not as many pts.

    Yes, taking out the ST scores like you and others have mentioned would give a more accurate depiction of how the D actually performed.
    That only makes sense.
    The originally quoted blurb was:

    ...But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    I was primarily fashioning my response off of that and saying that if I was going to pick one statistic, without actually analyzing the data, I would pick pts given up every time over total yards.
    I would say we're on the same page. I will say though that merely "picking" statistics without correctly analyzing them is never going to be good enough. If anything, the analysis matters more than the stat chosen. If only C Mac D would understand that.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  7. #27
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    "BleedinPandG" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    ..."We want to finish No. 1," Vikings Pro Bowl cornerback Antoine Winfield said.

    But Frazier emphasized that total yards, the measure for determining the NFL's top defense, are misleading and outlined more specific categories conducive to wins and losses...
    To me the only statistic that really matters is pts/game given up.
    The Steelers came in #1 at 13.9 while the Vikings came in # 13 with 20.8 pts/game given up.
    The bottom of the pack was the Lions with 32.3.
    I agree that pts/game is the most important stat that matters when analyzing a defense, but it certaintly isn't the only one.

    Moreover, its stupid to use Pts/game to judge without removing special teams TDs and Pick-sixes. The Vikings defense gave up far less than 20 points per game last year. If you rank defenses only by defensive pts/game allowed, the Vikings rank in the top 5 easily.
    Best stat is probably point differential... defensive points given up in the season minus defensive points scored in the season over 16.
    The problem with trying to exclude special teams is that most of the players on special teams are from the D, granted not always starting D.
    The Vikings were tied for 1st with the most TD's scored on fumbles (3) & ranked 8th with the number of fumble recoveries they had (13)

    The Vikings were tied for 6th with the most TD's scored on INT's (2), but ranked tied for 21st with the number of INT's they had. (12)

    The number of penalties is also a factor.
    The Vikings were the 4th most penalized team in the NFL with 109 penalties.

    The Vikings also ranked 24th in the turnovers with -6.

    The Vikings also ranked 27th in the total tackles department.

    The Vikings ranked 22nd in passes defensed.


    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  8. #28
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    Re: Frazier makes case for the defense - Unit has ingredients to rank No. 1

    [size=13pt]Vikings Defense Feel They Can Improve on '08 Numbers[/size]

    By Tim Peters

    Story Created: Aug 3, 2009 at 10:18 PM CDT
    Story Updated: Aug 3, 2009 at 10:55 PM CDT



    (Mankato, MN) Last year, the Vikings rebounded from a 1-3 start to go 9-3 in their final 12 games as they captured their first division crown since 2000. And one of the big reason's for their turnaround was the play of their defense.




    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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