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  1. #21
    Mr-holland's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    I
    hope the 99 yrd bomb to Berrian is on that list
    ;D
    The one QB we had who could make that read and sell the play to make it work is no longer on the roster.
    LMAO even a frickin blind man could have made that read..
    Rosie O'Donnell is a dude!

  2. #22
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "singersp" wrote:
    "jessejames09" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    What I would like to see is plays that make the D go crazy.
    i.e. have AD, CT, and Harvin in the huddle and play musical chairs as to who sets up at tailback.

    What I do know is Favre will help the running game more than he will the passing game.
    D's will respect the passing game enough to really open up the running game.
    Just look at what happened to the yds/att when Favre went from the Pack to the Jets.

    Ryan Grant
    2007 5.1 yds/att
    2008
    3.9

    Diff - 1.2
    Thomas Jones
    2007 3.6
    2008
    4.5
    Diff +0.9

    Can you just imagine if AD can have a similar bump in yds/att from his 2008 4.8
    to a 2009 of 5.8.
    Given AD's 363 att that would result in 2105 yds.

    No D is going to respect TJ or Sage enough not to stack the box when AD is in the backfield, until TJ or Sage have 6 strait games with 100+ ratings, 300+yds, and 3TD's. Whereas Favre will have to have 6 strait games of
    < 70 rating, < 200 yds, and more INT's than TD's before the D's will regularly stack the box.

    LOL! So that is what your earmark standard is before defenses will respect the pass?

    Can you show me a 6 game stretch where Favre has accomplished that?


    How many QB's in history have ever accomplished that?


    Can you show me where Favre has had a 6 game stretch throwing 300+?

    Can you show me where Favre has had a 6 game stretch with a QB rating of 100+?

    Don't be setting targets that Favre himself hasn't reached.

    BTW, Jone averaged over 4.0 YPC in 5 of his 6 last years playing (he had 4.6 YPC in 2003 with BJ under center & had 4.3 with Orton under center)

    Another stat the Favre camp doesn't tell you

    Cotchery 2007: 1130,
    13.8 YPR
    Cotcery 2008: 858,
    12.1 YPR
    Just to be fair their other starter did improve.





    Yds

    Avg

    Coles 2008 850 12.1
    Coles 2007 646 11.7

    As did Leon Washington.

    Rushing




    Yds
    Avg
    TD

    2008 448 5.9 6
    2007 353 5.0 3

    Receiving





    Yds
    Avg
    TD
    2008
    355
    7.6
    2

    2007 213 5.9
    0
    Ah! But when did they improve?

    All we here from Favre camp is "He didn't play well because he was injured & throwing like shit the past 5 games". So lets look at that RB breakdown;

    Jones;

    1st 11 games: 4.4YPC, TD: 0.8/game
    last 5 games: 5.0 YPC, TD: 0.8/game

    http://www.nfl.com/players/thomasjones/gamelogs?id=JON755755

    Washington;

    1st 11 games: 5.5YPC, TD: 0.4/game
    last 5 games: 7.4 YPC, TD: 0.4/game

    It seems to me that these RB's did much better when Favre was injured, than when he was healthy.

    Let's also not forget that Kellen Clemens, not Pennington started 8 of those games in 2007.

    Let's also not forget that;

    75% of Favre's passes were thrown for 10 yards or less. (50% 0-10 yards, 25% behind the LOS)

    Only 4% of Favre's passes were thrown for 30+ yards & his completion % was only 17.4%. Those passes netted only 2 TD's all year. 5 of those or 22% were intercepted.

    With that said, it's clearly evident that Favre is no longer the long ball threat that he once was & teams are quickly picking up on this, if they haven't already.

    With 75% of his passes going for 10 yards or less & AD as our RB, I don't see where teams are going to start pulling that 8th man out of the box. With 8 men in the box, you can still cover that 10 yard zone.




    So as long as you are so knowledgeable of the situational stats then tell me this:

    -Of those 75% passes, how many were to the sidelines outside the hash marks? You can have a short pass and still take guys out of the box as long as you are throwing to the sidelines. If he is completing all of those passes in the middle of the field less than 10 yards I would agree with your assessment, but IMO they are baseless unless you can verify that is the case.

    -Of those 75%, how many were short passes to get a 1st down where they only needed to get less than 10 to get a 1st down? One of the reasons Brett may have had a lower number of his passes longer than 30 yards is that he might not have put himself into situations where the longer passes were necessary and possibly the reason Jackson had a higher % of longer passes is because he did.

    -Of those passes behind the line of scrimmage: Were they screens intended to be completed behind the LOS? In the WCO it is not uncommon to have a high number of screen passes to RB's out in the flat. One of the reasons is because it pulls the guys away from the LOS, forcing them to cover more ground by stretching the field laterally and opening up the defense. We may have had fewer of those plays because Jackson has a habit of staring down WR's and if the defender jumps a screen pass it is a quick 6 the other direction. The fact we did not attempt that many of them is a good indicator of the lack of confidence the coaches have in the QB and the RB to execute the play.

    As for this part:
    Can you show me where Favre has had a 6 game stretch throwing 300+?

    Can you show me where Favre has had a 6 game stretch with a QB rating of 100+?
    The only reason for you to pull this out of the stat book is if you believe that TJ could do it. Has Brett ever had that many consecutive games with those stats? Probably not, but he may well have had more in two seasons than Jackson will have in his entire career.

  3. #23
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "Mr-holland" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    I
    hope the 99 yrd bomb to Berrian is on that list
    ;D
    The one QB we had who could make that read and sell the play to make it work is no longer on the roster.
    LMAO even a frickin blind man could have made that read..
    And yet he is still the only one who could have sold the play. That is even more evidence of how bad the position is.

  4. #24
    Yfz01 is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr-holland" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    I
    hope the 99 yrd bomb to Berrian is on that list
    ;D
    The one QB we had who could make that read and sell the play to make it work is no longer on the roster.
    LMAO even a frickin blind man could have made that read..
    And yet he is still the only one who could have sold the play. That is even more evidence of how bad the position is.
    T-Jack is the only QB on the Vikings roster capable of putting up 4 TDs in one game.

  5. #25
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "Yfz01" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr-holland" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    I
    hope the 99 yrd bomb to Berrian is on that list
    ;D
    The one QB we had who could make that read and sell the play to make it work is no longer on the roster.
    LMAO even a frickin blind man could have made that read..
    And yet he is still the only one who could have sold the play. That is even more evidence of how bad the position is.
    T-Jack is the only QB on the Vikings roster capable of putting up 4 TDs in one game.
    +1

    Jackson is by far the best QB on our roster right now... and last year. Remember, Jackson had to save Frerotte from the (ehm...) Detroit Lions.

    It's not even up for debate, Jackson is far better than Rosenfels or Frerotte.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  6. #26
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "Yfz01" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    What I would like to see is plays that make the D go crazy.
    i.e. have AD, CT, and Harvin in the huddle and play musical chairs as to who sets up at tailback.

    What I do know is Favre will help the running game more than he will the passing game.
    D's will respect the passing game enough to really open up the running game.
    Just look at what happened to the yds/att when Favre went from the Pack to the Jets.

    Ryan Grant

    2007 5.1 yds/att

    2008
    3.9


    Diff - 1.2
    Thomas Jones
    2007 3.6

    2008
    4.5

    Diff +0.9

    Can you just imagine if AD can have a similar bump in yds/att from his 2008 4.8

    to a 2009 of 5.8.
    Given AD's 363 att that would result in 2105 yds.

    No D is going to respect TJ or Sage enough not to stack the box when AD is in the backfield, until TJ or Sage have 6 strait games with 100+ ratings, 300+yds, and 3TD's.
    Whereas Favre will have to have 6 strait games of
    < 70 rating, < 200 yds, and more INT's than TD's before the D's will regularly stack the box.
    Let me get this straight, you are saying that because opposing Ds won't realize that Favre sucks until week 7, our running game will improve? Is that what you're saying?
    I'm saying that D's will have respect for Favre that they will never have for TJ or Sage.
    Because of that respect the running game will flourish.
    Also, because AD is also getting a high level of respect, the pressure won't be on Favre to win games.

    As for Favre sucking, it must be a personal thing with you, because his stats don't agree.
    Especially, when you take all the handicaps he had with the Jets last year, which he wouldn't have with the Vikes.

    handicaps?

    ???
    Handicaps I'm speaking of:
    1. Showing up to training camp late and dealing with all the drama with GB
    2. Going to a division in another conference where he isn't as familiar with the opponents players or coaches.
    3. Going to a non-WCO system.
    4. Going to a team that only won 4 games the previous year
    5. Going to a team
    that had 0 pro bowlers the previous year (BTW Favre was a NFC pro bowl starter in 2008 and a AFC reserve in 2009)

    Whereas with the Vikes:
    1. There won't be drama with GB, there will only be focus on kicking their butts
    2. Favre knows the NFCN better than any of the coaches, since he's been in it longer than anyone.
    3. Favre knows Bevells WCO better than TJ or Sage do.
    4. Vikes were a playoff team winning 10 games
    5. Vikes had 6 pro bowlers, 4 starters 2 reserves

    Favre took a crappy team with the above handicaps from 4-12 to 9-7.
    Do you think if TJ or Sage went to the Jets they would even have a winning season?
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  7. #27
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "singersp" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    What I would like to see is plays that make the D go crazy.
    i.e. have AD, CT, and Harvin in the huddle and play musical chairs as to who sets up at tailback.

    What I do know is Favre will help the running game more than he will the passing game.
    D's will respect the passing game enough to really open up the running game.
    Just look at what happened to the yds/att when Favre went from the Pack to the Jets.

    Ryan Grant

    2007 5.1 yds/att

    2008
    3.9


    Diff - 1.2
    Thomas Jones
    2007 3.6

    2008
    4.5

    Diff +0.9

    Can you just imagine if AD can have a similar bump in yds/att from his 2008 4.8

    to a 2009 of 5.8.
    Given AD's 363 att that would result in 2105 yds.

    No D is going to respect TJ or Sage enough not to stack the box when AD is in the backfield, until TJ or Sage have 6 strait games with 100+ ratings, 300+yds, and 3TD's.
    Whereas Favre will have to have 6 strait games of
    < 70 rating, < 200 yds, and more INT's than TD's before the D's will regularly stack the box.

    LOL! So that is what your earmark standard is before defenses will respect the pass?

    Can you show me a 6 game stretch where Favre has accomplished that?


    How many QB's in history have ever accomplished that?


    Can you show me where Favre has had a 6 game stretch throwing 300+?

    Can you show me where Favre has had a 6 game stretch with a QB rating of 100+?

    Don't be setting targets that Favre himself hasn't reached.

    BTW, Jone averaged over 4.0 YPC in 5 of his 6 last years playing (he had 4.6 YPC in 2003 with BJ under center & had 4.3 with Orton under center)

    Another stat the Favre camp doesn't tell you

    Cotchery 2007: 1130,
    13.8 YPR
    Cotcery 2008: 858,
    12.1 YPR
    I'll conceed that I got a little carried away with the stats, but my point is that TJ or Sage will need to put up some serious #'s early before any team is going to give them the respect that teams give Favre.
    Also the closest Favre did was his 4th year as a starter in 1995 when he had a 9 game stretch where he had 8 games with a rating over 100 (5 over 130) and 4 over 300 yards passing, 7 over 250.
    Full stats below:
    WK Yds Rate
    11 336 147.2
    12 210 133.6
    13 267 143.6
    14 339 108.6
    15 285 75
    16 308 142.8
    17 301 122
    18 199 111.5
    19 299 132.9

    As for Thomas Jones, he had a good career, but it doesn't discount that Jones ypc went up and Ryans went down with/without Favre.

    What the Favre camp will tell you about how Favre uses his receivers is:
    2007
    Jerricho Cotchery
    1130yds 13.8avg longest 50
    TD2
    Laveranues Coles

    646


    11.7







    57


    6
    Chris Baker





    409


    10.0








    22


    3
    Leon Washington

    213


    5.9








    18


    0
    Brad Smith





    325


    10.2







    29


    2
    Thomas Jones



    217


    7.8








    25


    1

    2008
    Jerricho Cotchery
    858yds 12.1avg
    longest 56
    TDs 5
    Laveranues Coles
    850


    12.1








    54



    7
    Dustin Keller



    535


    11.1








    54



    3
    Leon Washington
    355



    7.6







    40




    2
    Thomas Jones


    207



    5.8







    19




    2
    Chansi Stuckey

    359


    11.2







    31




    3

    Seems to me that Favre used all his receivers better and not just one.



    It's plain to me that having Favre will significantly improve the Vikes, not just by better stats, but by leadership and reputation.

    D coordinators don't focus their game plans on what TJ or Sage can do, they will with Favre.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  8. #28
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    So as long as you are so knowledgeable of the situational stats then tell me this:

    -Of those 75% passes, how many were to the sidelines outside the hash marks? You can have a short pass and still take guys out of the box as long as you are throwing to the sidelines. If he is completing all of those passes in the middle of the field less than 10 yards I would agree with your assessment, but IMO they are baseless unless you can verify that is the case.
    I can't break it down for just the 75%, but I can break it down for all of his passes. The 75% would be a huge chunk of it.

    LEFT SIDELINE: 65-104, 63%, 10 INT's, TD's: 5

    BETWEEN THE HASH MARKS: 230-331, 69%, 5 INT's, TD's: 14

    RIGHT SIDELINE: 48-87, 55%, 7 INT's, TD's: 3

    So 20% of his passes were thrown to the LSL, 17% to the RSL & 63% were between the hash marks.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #29
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    Ah! But when did they improve?

    All we here from Favre camp is "He didn't play well because he was injured & throwing like shit the past 5 games". So lets look at that RB breakdown;

    Jones;

    1st 11 games: 4.4YPC, TD: 0.8/game
    last 5 games: 5.0 YPC, TD: 0.8/game

    http://www.nfl.com/players/thomasjones/gamelogs?id=JON755755

    Washington;

    1st 11 games: 5.5YPC, TD: 0.4/game
    last 5 games: 7.4 YPC, TD: 0.4/game

    It seems to me that these RB's did much better when Favre was injured, than when he was healthy.

    Let's also not forget that Kellen Clemens, not Pennington started 8 of those games in 2007.

    Let's also not forget that;

    75% of Favre's passes were thrown for 10 yards or less. (50% 0-10 yards, 25% behind the LOS)

    Only 4% of Favre's passes were thrown for 30+ yards & his completion % was only 17.4%. Those passes netted only 2 TD's all year. 5 of those or 22% were intercepted.

    With that said, it's clearly evident that Favre is no longer the long ball threat that he once was & teams are quickly picking up on this, if they haven't already.

    With 75% of his passes going for 10 yards or less & AD as our RB, I don't see where teams are going to start pulling that 8th man out of the box. With 8 men in the box, you can still cover that 10 yard zone.
    So as long as you are so knowledgeable of the situational stats then tell me this:

    -Of those passes behind the line of scrimmage: Were they screens intended to be completed behind the LOS? In the WCO it is not uncommon to have a high number of screen passes to RB's out in the flat. One of the reasons is because it pulls the guys away from the LOS, forcing them to cover more ground by stretching the field laterally and opening up the defense. We may have had fewer of those plays because Jackson has a habit of staring down WR's and if the defender jumps a screen pass it is a quick 6 the other direction. The fact we did not attempt that many of them is a good indicator of the lack of confidence the coaches have in the QB and the RB to execute the play.
    Yup it is. Problem is, AD has difficulty catching the ball. Why do you think we bring in C-Tay quite often when we are going to pass?

    Nothing like being predictable.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #30
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Five Plays the Minnesota Vikings Should Have on Speed Dial

    "gagarr" wrote:

    Favre took a crappy team with the above handicaps from 4-12 to 9-7.
    Do you think if TJ or Sage went to the Jets they would even have a winning season?
    Crappy team? In 2007, Pennington had an ankle injury & only started 8 games. Kellen Clemmens started in the other 8.

    In 2006 When Pennington was healthy, the Jets were 10-6 & went to the playoffs.

    The 4-12 record is used purely out of convenience.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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