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  1. #21
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re: Five keys for the Vikings to make a championship run

    "V4L" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    We seem to have the Int discussion alot every year

    It's the scheme not the players

    The way we run the cover 2 is keep everything in front and come make the tackle

    I don't like it.. But that's the way it is
    I disagree. If this defense is executed properly there should be plenty of INT opportunities. I know we give up a lot of yards but there is no reason we can't get picks.
    Anyone know which teams in the NFL run a cover 2 defense? Be nice to see how the rest stack up in comparison. The colts always seem to get alot of interceptions. I think the problem is we don't have a Bob Sanders type in our secondary.

    Well we had Sharper who was a sick jiggly butt ball hawk.. Problem was the safeties play back on each side of the field

    And our corners give up a 10 yard cushion

    Teams learned all you need to do is hit the quick slants and try to shake the LBs

    Or hit the skinny posts behind the LBs and inbetween the safeties

    I could be wrong, but to me I feel it's the scheme.. We play a very lose cover 2

    I am a huge fan of the bump and run coverage.. I feel we should do more of this with our corners
    Theoretically, if you can stop the run with a cover2 package, then it is a great scheme to play (7 in the box compared to 8 with a traditional strong safety).
    You're right about the weak spots, but it takes a team to execute well on a consistent basis to break it down and score a bunch of points.
    The problem I'm seeing as of late is in the lack of tackling.
    From the LB"s to the corners, to the safeties.
    The safeties are the biggest concern to me, as they simply can't afford to miss tackles.
    One of the advantages of a cover2 is that it is supposed to put multiple defenders in a position to make the tackle, but we have been messing up big time in this area.
    The other thing that is critical is for the corners to be able to help in run support.
    With Winfield down, this is a big dropoff for us.
    Paymah is actually not that bad in coverage (IMO), but he is not near as good at coming up for run support as Winfield and Griffin.

    In terms of interceptions, generically speaking, I think you're right that the cover 2 does not emphasize it.
    However, this is primarily because it is intended to counter a WCO, which by nature is a conservative short route type of offense.
    When people go deep on us and we are in a cover 2, there is no reason why our safeties can't be making plays.
    The communication and coverage play seems to be pretty messed up right now between the safeties and their zone counterparts (cb's, lb's).

    Also, I don't think our corner's are laying off near as much from the LOS as they did a couple of years ago.
    Compare our guys to other zone teams and see how they compare.
    I understand being a fan of man to man coverage, but that has a lot of downside as well, especially in today's pass friendly officiating.
    Ask TO, he has made his living making a catch on the run against man coverage and burning him for big YAC.
    Now that he is in Buffalo he has been playing a lot of cover 2 teams and is having a hard time getting production.
    Probably because now he needs to find the soft spot in a zone and sit down vs. utilizing his strength of catching on the run against smaller corners.
    That and he plays for Buffalo.

    Bottom line to me is that our safety play is very suspect right now leading to large YAC and deeper pass completions.

  2. #22
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Five keys for the Vikings to make a championship run

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    We seem to have the Int discussion alot every year

    It's the scheme not the players

    The way we run the cover 2 is keep everything in front and come make the tackle

    I don't like it.. But that's the way it is
    I disagree. If this defense is executed properly there should be plenty of INT opportunities. I know we give up a lot of yards but there is no reason we can't get picks.
    Anyone know which teams in the NFL run a cover 2 defense? Be nice to see how the rest stack up in comparison. The colts always seem to get alot of interceptions. I think the problem is we don't have a Bob Sanders type in our secondary.

    Well we had Sharper who was a sick jiggly butt ball hawk.. Problem was the safeties play back on each side of the field

    And our corners give up a 10 yard cushion

    Teams learned all you need to do is hit the quick slants and try to shake the LBs

    Or hit the skinny posts behind the LBs and inbetween the safeties

    I could be wrong, but to me I feel it's the scheme.. We play a very lose cover 2

    I am a huge fan of the bump and run coverage.. I feel we should do more of this with our corners
    Theoretically, if you can stop the run with a cover2 package, then it is a great scheme to play (7 in the box compared to 8 with a traditional strong safety).
    You're right about the weak spots, but it takes a team to execute well on a consistent basis to break it down and score a bunch of points.
    The problem I'm seeing as of late is in the lack of tackling.
    From the LB"s to the corners, to the safeties.
    The safeties are the biggest concern to me, as they simply can't afford to miss tackles.
    One of the advantages of a cover2 is that it is supposed to put multiple defenders in a position to make the tackle, but we have been messing up big time in this area.
    The other thing that is critical is for the corners to be able to help in run support.
    With Winfield down, this is a big dropoff for us.
    Paymah is actually not that bad in coverage (IMO), but he is not near as good at coming up for run support as Winfield and Griffin.

    In terms of interceptions, generically speaking, I think you're right that the cover 2 does not emphasize it.
    However, this is primarily because it is intended to counter a WCO, which by nature is a conservative short route type of offense.
    When people go deep on us and we are in a cover 2, there is no reason why our safeties can't be making plays.
    The communication and coverage play seems to be pretty messed up right now between the safeties and their zone counterparts (cb's, lb's).

    Also, I don't think our corner's are laying off near as much from the LOS as they did a couple of years ago.
    Compare our guys to other zone teams and see how they compare.
    I understand being a fan of man to man coverage, but that has a lot of downside as well, especially in today's pass friendly officiating.
    Ask TO, he has made his living making a catch on the run against man coverage and burning him for big YAC.
    Now that he is in Buffalo he has been playing a lot of cover 2 teams and is having a hard time getting production.
    Probably because now he needs to find the soft spot in a zone and sit down vs. utilizing his strength of catching on the run against smaller corners.
    That and he plays for Buffalo.

    Bottom line to me is that our safety play is very suspect right now leading to large YAC and deeper pass completions.
    There are lots of versions of the cover 2.
    IMO the Vikes version doesn't give the safeties as much freedom to make plays, they are their just to prevent big plays or any play.

    As V4L has pointed out, Sharper is a good example of a talented ball hawk that was put in a system that limited his freedom.
    If you look during 2005, prior to Chilly, Sharper had 9 INT's.
    Then 4 then 4 and last year only 1.
    Result of the players or the scheme?

    But I don't care about the INT's as long as the Vikes are winning the TO battle +5.
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    [/size]

  3. #23
    BleedinPandG is offline Coach
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    Re: Five keys for the Vikings to make a championship run

    "gagarr" wrote:
    There are lots of versions of the cover 2.
    IMO the Vikes version doesn't give the safeties as much freedom to make plays, they are their just to prevent big plays or any play.

    As V4L has pointed out, Sharper is a good example of a talented ball hawk that was put in a system that limited his freedom.
    If you look during 2005, prior to Chilly, Sharper had 9 INT's.
    Then 4 then 4 and last year only 1.
    Result of the players or the scheme?

    But I don't care about the INT's as long as the Vikes are winning the TO battle +5.
    What has it been the last 3 weeks?
    Picking off rookie QB passes are nice and everything, but those aren't the teams we'll be facing in January when it matters most.
    IMO, the past 3 games are the best indication we currently have of how our team would look in the playoffs and my opinion is our D isn't making big, dynamic plays like we'll need in January.
    The true measure of a man is what he'd do knowing he'd never be found out.

  4. #24
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Five keys for the Vikings to make a championship run

    "BleedinPandG" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    There are lots of versions of the cover 2.
    IMO the Vikes version doesn't give the safeties as much freedom to make plays, they are their just to prevent big plays or any play.

    As V4L has pointed out, Sharper is a good example of a talented ball hawk that was put in a system that limited his freedom.
    If you look during 2005, prior to Chilly, Sharper had 9 INT's.
    Then 4 then 4 and last year only 1.
    Result of the players or the scheme?

    But I don't care about the INT's as long as the Vikes are winning the TO battle +5.
    What has it been the last 3 weeks?
    Picking off rookie QB passes are nice and everything, but those aren't the teams we'll be facing in January when it matters most.
    IMO, the past 3 games are the best indication we currently have of how our team would look in the playoffs and my opinion is our D isn't making big, dynamic plays like we'll need in January.
    +1

    I think sacks are dynamic, but with this team they are to be expected.
    INT's are great and dynamic because they last long and the Vikes have only 6.
    But the Vikes D does lead the league with 19 fumbles.

    What I would have liked to see in the last 3 games is the same D show up in the 2nd half and especially the 4th Qtr..
    I don't think it's the players being tired, I think it's the softer game plan, playing not to lose.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  5. #25
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re: Five keys for the Vikings to make a championship run

    "BleedinPandG" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    There are lots of versions of the cover 2.
    IMO the Vikes version doesn't give the safeties as much freedom to make plays, they are their just to prevent big plays or any play.

    As V4L has pointed out, Sharper is a good example of a talented ball hawk that was put in a system that limited his freedom.
    If you look during 2005, prior to Chilly, Sharper had 9 INT's.
    Then 4 then 4 and last year only 1.
    Result of the players or the scheme?

    But I don't care about the INT's as long as the Vikes are winning the TO battle +5.
    What has it been the last 3 weeks?
    Picking off rookie QB passes are nice and everything, but those aren't the teams we'll be facing in January when it matters most.
    IMO, the past 3 games are the best indication we currently have of how our team would look in the playoffs and my opinion is our D isn't making big, dynamic plays like we'll need in January.
    I would agree.
    Not only are they not making big plays (which is allowed even in a cover 2), but they are handling their responsibilities very well.
    I'll take the lack of big plays if they do the rest of their job correctly, right now they aren't doing either.
    If I'm the opposing team game planning for the Vikings defense, I would go after our safeties...even if it means leaving more players in to block and buy the qB time.

  6. #26
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Five keys for the Vikings to make a championship run

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "BleedinPandG" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    There are lots of versions of the cover 2.
    IMO the Vikes version doesn't give the safeties as much freedom to make plays, they are their just to prevent big plays or any play.

    As V4L has pointed out, Sharper is a good example of a talented ball hawk that was put in a system that limited his freedom.
    If you look during 2005, prior to Chilly, Sharper had 9 INT's.
    Then 4 then 4 and last year only 1.
    Result of the players or the scheme?

    But I don't care about the INT's as long as the Vikes are winning the TO battle +5.
    What has it been the last 3 weeks?
    Picking off rookie QB passes are nice and everything, but those aren't the teams we'll be facing in January when it matters most.
    IMO, the past 3 games are the best indication we currently have of how our team would look in the playoffs and my opinion is our D isn't making big, dynamic plays like we'll need in January.
    I would agree.
    Not only are they not making big plays (which is allowed even in a cover 2), but they are handling their responsibilities very well.
    I'll take the lack of big plays if they do the rest of their job correctly, right now they aren't doing either.
    If I'm the opposing team game planning for the Vikings defense, I would go after our safeties...even if it means leaving more players in to block and buy the qB time.
    It's the spot in the zones where the handoff from the LB's on TE's to the safeties that is really a weak spot.
    The communication is very poor and our LB's can't keep up with the better TE's like V. Davis.
    Same goes with the comms between the CB's and safeties.

    But as Tasty indicates, the Vikes are relying on the pass rush to disrupt the long passes or buy the safties time to react by flushing the QB.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
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