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  1. #21
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098945
    Do noubt, but making a bold statement as the 'worst'? There are teams who haven't even attempted workouts yet.
    Hey, you say the OL sucks without credible evidence. I think that my saying that we are the worst, based on our turnout, is probably a bit more credible even considering the teams that haven't tried. We don't know how many would've turned out if they would have tried.


    Not hacking, my friend, simply stating a fact. A rookie QB, during a lockout, without the ability to communicate with the rest of the team can not be a leader right away. The team WILL NOT just give him respect, it has to be earned. That's how it works in all level of sports. Think of it like the movie Any Given Sunday. Hotshot young kid comes in after an old guy gets hurt/retires. Teammates don't respect him because he has not earned it. After time, it all works out. Exact same situation here. They need to work together, develop friendships and a mutual respect and trust for one another. Until then, Ponder calling people up saying "come out to Florida for a workout" will have very little success.
    First, I refuse to compare real football with a movie or even Madden.

    Second, works both ways. I am sure that young Ponder, who will be around alot longer thans some that didn't bother to show up, will remember that when he is distributing the ball around.

    The vets know that little point as well. Again, they didn't show up, not because of the QB, they didn't show up because they didn't want to risk injury without a long term contract or because they were pissed that players didn't have long term contracts.

    To think otherwise means you watch to many movies like the one you mentioned.


    Thing is, most teams are like that. Not everyone gets re-signed, especially in the lockout. Bengals managed 40 players to their workout, and they are in just as rough shape as we are. Reason is Palmer (his bro, not Carson) has been on the team for a while, and he's able to get guys to show up. If Andy Dalton were to try and host that workout, I doubt you see alot of attendance either. It allc omes down to respect. Ponder doesn't have it yet.
    Nope, not buying it. First, the team knows who will start at QB this year and it isn't Palmer the younger. If Palmer the older doesn't show up, Palmer the younger is nothing more than the guy who is going to help Andy learn to prep for games (i.e. study tape when the coaches aren't around).

    Wilf's seemed to have a good thing going a few years back, but apparantly they kept flip-flopping between playing in Anoka or Minneapolis, Anoka said "screw this, go somewhere else" because it wasn't going anywhere and they were gettingp layed. To date he has not comitted to anything yet, just a dollar amount. A dollar amount, that I might add, which seems unnecessarily high, and the state seems to be unwilling to help with.


    He absolutely has a huge amount of blame for the inability to get anything done. He's the leader of our entire team.

    He's willing to put up $400 million himself for a stadium. Fantastic. But he needs to be willing to work with others to make this happen, and so far, he's not committed to a thing. I get that he needs to make sure everything is right before actually getting started, but we are running out of time. Make a few concessions, build an outdoor stadium with the ability to add a roof at a later date if necessary. Make it a fixed roof. Both are ways to shave millions off the cost.
    I think you missed the articles about the MSFC and its role in causing the Anoka plan to fall apart.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098962
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098945
    Do noubt, but making a bold statement as the 'worst'? There are teams who haven't even attempted workouts yet.
    Hey, you say the OL sucks without credible evidence. I think that my saying that we are the worst, based on our turnout, is probably a bit more credible even considering the teams that haven't tried. We don't know how many would've turned out if they would have tried.


    Not hacking, my friend, simply stating a fact. A rookie QB, during a lockout, without the ability to communicate with the rest of the team can not be a leader right away. The team WILL NOT just give him respect, it has to be earned. That's how it works in all level of sports. Think of it like the movie Any Given Sunday. Hotshot young kid comes in after an old guy gets hurt/retires. Teammates don't respect him because he has not earned it. After time, it all works out. Exact same situation here. They need to work together, develop friendships and a mutual respect and trust for one another. Until then, Ponder calling people up saying "come out to Florida for a workout" will have very little success.
    First, I refuse to compare real football with a movie or even Madden.

    Second, works both ways. I am sure that young Ponder, who will be around alot longer thans some that didn't bother to show up, will remember that when he is distributing the ball around.
    If he does, then he shouldn't be on the team.

    If you're playing QB, your first goal should be to WIN. Who cares who you throw to? Favre threw a game winner to Greg Freakin Lewis vs. the 49ers. Point is, look at whether the guy is there, not what the number is.

    If he's the guy that's going to hold grudges, then he can head out the door. Not what you need in a leader.
    The vets know that little point as well. Again, they didn't show up, not because of the QB, they didn't show up because they didn't want to risk injury without a long term contract or because they were pissed that players didn't have long term contracts.
    oh bullshit.

    Harvin didn't show up because he "lost his phone". Really, he didn't think he would benefit from going to make it worth it (and he wouldn't have) Same with Shank and Rice. Really, the only one with a semi-valid excuse is Rice, since he's got no contract yet.
    To think otherwise means you watch to many movies like the one you mentioned.
    Or..... you know, I kinda understand what might be going through the mind of a 22 year old kid when some new guy comes in and tells him to fly to Florida.

    Thing is, most teams are like that. Not everyone gets re-signed, especially in the lockout. Bengals managed 40 players to their workout, and they are in just as rough shape as we are. Reason is Palmer (his bro, not Carson) has been on the team for a while, and he's able to get guys to show up. If Andy Dalton were to try and host that workout, I doubt you see alot of attendance either. It allc omes down to respect. Ponder doesn't have it yet.
    Nope, not buying it. First, the team knows who will start at QB this year and it isn't Palmer the younger. If Palmer the older doesn't show up, Palmer the younger is nothing more than the guy who is going to help Andy learn to prep for games (i.e. study tape when the coaches aren't around).
    And yet he organized a workout with a great showing. Doesn't matter if he's starting or not, he's been around, and knows the guys.

    Wilf's seemed to have a good thing going a few years back, but apparantly they kept flip-flopping between playing in Anoka or Minneapolis, Anoka said "screw this, go somewhere else" because it wasn't going anywhere and they were gettingp layed. To date he has not comitted to anything yet, just a dollar amount. A dollar amount, that I might add, which seems unnecessarily high, and the state seems to be unwilling to help with.


    He absolutely has a huge amount of blame for the inability to get anything done. He's the leader of our entire team.

    He's willing to put up $400 million himself for a stadium. Fantastic. But he needs to be willing to work with others to make this happen, and so far, he's not committed to a thing. I get that he needs to make sure everything is right before actually getting started, but we are running out of time. Make a few concessions, build an outdoor stadium with the ability to add a roof at a later date if necessary. Make it a fixed roof. Both are ways to shave millions off the cost.
    I think you missed the articles about the MSFC and its role in causing the Anoka plan to fall apart.
    Not missed. Easy solution, Wilf says, I'm moving in five years, I have five years left on the lease. I'll finish my time here, and we're gone. Great playing here, but the facilities are inadaquate for our needs. They have a contractual agreement. MSFC can't just say "well screw you, find somewhere else to play now".

    But no, he kept entertaining other offers and ideas, and eventually, Anoka said "screw this" and got out, same as what's about to happen with the current deal unless something happens.

  3. #23
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098966
    If he does, then he shouldn't be on the team.

    If you're playing QB, your first goal should be to WIN. Who cares who you throw to? Favre threw a game winner to Greg Freakin Lewis vs. the 49ers. Point is, look at whether the guy is there, not what the number is.

    If he's the guy that's going to hold grudges, then he can head out the door. Not what you need in a leader.
    Why do you have to always bring the Noodle into the discussion?

    Of course Ponder will do what is right to win, but in most cases, just like your fricken Noodle example, there are other options. I am sure young Ponder will develop a relationship with and throw to his favorites.

    Again, Vets know this. It isn't a secret. Back to your beloved Noodle for example, he didn't like BB. BB couldn't catch things out of the bubble like Rice. Guess who the Noodle trusted more....surely it wasn't BB. I wonder if the Noodle called this workout if BB would have showed.

    Reality my friend, not a movie.


    Harvin didn't show up because he "lost his phone". Really, he didn't think he would benefit from going to make it worth it (and he wouldn't have) Same with Shank and Rice. Really, the only one with a semi-valid excuse is Rice, since he's got no contract yet.
    Nope, still not buying into it. I think it can be traced back to Phat Pats comments....He don't trust no one in that organization anymore.

    Those are words spoken by one of the teams vocal leaders my friend, and as you point out, his leadership role was earned.

    Or..... you know, I kinda understand what might be going through the mind of a 22 year old kid when some new guy comes in and tells him to fly to Florida.
    I've been dealing with 22 year olds my whole life. Heck I got 2 kids in that area.

    Peer pressure drives them. In this instance that peer pressure is being driven by their agents, money, and job security and has nothing to do with the young QB.


    And yet he organized a workout with a great showing. Doesn't matter if he's starting or not, he's been around, and knows the guys.
    YUP, come get some work with your new QB (Andy Dalton). Mad props to Palmer the younger. Wish we had some Vets like him on the roster.


    Not missed. Easy solution, Wilf says, I'm moving in five years, I have five years left on the lease. I'll finish my time here, and we're gone. Great playing here, but the facilities are inadaquate for our needs. They have a contractual agreement. MSFC can't just say "well screw you, find somewhere else to play now".

    But no, he kept entertaining other offers and ideas, and eventually, Anoka said "screw this" and got out, same as what's about to happen with the current deal unless something happens.
    Well, I'm not sure I agree with that spin.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098972
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098966
    If he does, then he shouldn't be on the team.

    If you're playing QB, your first goal should be to WIN. Who cares who you throw to? Favre threw a game winner to Greg Freakin Lewis vs. the 49ers. Point is, look at whether the guy is there, not what the number is.

    If he's the guy that's going to hold grudges, then he can head out the door. Not what you need in a leader.
    Why do you have to always bring the Noodle into the discussion?
    because aside from that , we haven't had a QB worth a damn since Culpepper left that you can draw valid comparasons of good play.
    Of course Ponder will do what is right to win, but in most cases, just like your fricken Noodle example, there are other options. I am sure young Ponder will develop a relationship with and throw to his favorites.
    Favourite is not the same as disliking a guy and purposely ignoring him.

    Lets put it this way, TO, aside from his one year with the Bills, has always been around 70 catches per season. The guy is the definition of a dick, but he's talented, so QB"s throw to him. Are you suggesting Ponder might dislike TO, and purposely not throw to him?

    QB's develop a favourite based on talent, skills, chemistry and ability to make him look good.

    Culpepper had Moss as a favourite, Favre had Rice, and without Rice, it was Harvin. Warner had Fitzgerald, Manning had Harrison/Wayne.
    Again, Vets know this. It isn't a secret. Back to your beloved Noodle for example, he didn't like BB. BB couldn't catch things out of the bubble like Rice. Guess who the Noodle trusted more....surely it wasn't BB. I wonder if the Noodle called this workout if BB would have showed.
    Not throwing to a guy because he can't catch is different than not throwing to a guy because you just don't like the person. If he's talented, and if he's on the team, use him.
    Reality my friend, not a movie.
    Apparantly can't use any type of example with you or you twist it into some ridiculous assumption as usual.

    Harvin didn't show up because he "lost his phone". Really, he didn't think he would benefit from going to make it worth it (and he wouldn't have) Same with Shank and Rice. Really, the only one with a semi-valid excuse is Rice, since he's got no contract yet.
    Nope, still not buying into it. I think it can be traced back to Phat Pats comments....He don't trust no one in that organization anymore.
    Ah, so Harvin didn't show up, after working his ass off all year to play at a high level, because some 38 year old DT who's been playing since 1842 didn't like where the team was heading? I call massive bullshit on that.

    [quote]
    Peer pressure drives them. In this instance that peer pressure is being driven by their agents, money, and job security and has nothing to do with the young QB. Then why is it only Vikings players seem to be pressured by their Agents to not play 100% in games, and not show up to workout?

    And yet he organized a workout with a great showing. Doesn't matter if he's starting or not, he's been around, and knows the guys.
    YUP, come get some work with your new QB (Andy Dalton). Mad props to Palmer the younger. Wish we had some Vets like him on the roster.
    Perhaps a vet QB that is actually capable of leading a team? yeah, would be helpful. Even if you're a backup, you have some pull. I bet if Sage were to host a workout, he'd have gotten more than 7 people. Maybe not 40, but he'd get a turnout. Favre would get the whole team. Webb is in the same boat as Ponder, but he's a young kid that the vets seem to want to upgrade. Doesn't really scream respect. The issue is, we are young at the most important positions. AP isn't a leader, our QB is supposed to be our leader, but isn't. We don't seem to have that one team leader anymore. I'd love to have a guy like Brees, who is very vocal, and gets the offense AND defense pumped up before the game. Guy who the team listens to. We don't have that, it almost seems like our team has cliques.

    That isn't based on very much, but I get the impression that's the case.

  5. #25
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098976
    because aside from that , we haven't had a QB worth a damn since Culpepper left that you can draw valid comparasons of good play.


    Favourite is not the same as disliking a guy and purposely ignoring him.

    Lets put it this way, TO, aside from his one year with the Bills, has always been around 70 catches per season. The guy is the definition of a dick, but he's talented, so QB"s throw to him. Are you suggesting Ponder might dislike TO, and purposely not throw to him?

    QB's develop a favourite based on talent, skills, chemistry and ability to make him look good.

    Culpepper had Moss as a favourite, Favre had Rice, and without Rice, it was Harvin. Warner had Fitzgerald, Manning had Harrison/Wayne.
    Pepp wasn't that good. Our WR's carried him, along with a very good running game.

    TO works his ass off. TO would have shown up. Because of that the chemistry would have been there. Not a good example.


    Not throwing to a guy because he can't catch is different than not throwing to a guy because you just don't like the person. If he's talented, and if he's on the team, use him.
    And yet the Noodle did throw to him when he had no other options.....See the game were the Noodle had his highest passing yards total ever.

    Apparantly can't use any type of example with you or you twist it into some ridiculous assumption as usual.
    Nope, that was my attempt at stopping you from quoting me to death. You seem to have gotten better at creating threads with a bazillion quotes in them as a means to stop a discussion.

    Ah, so Harvin didn't show up, after working his ass off all year to play at a high level, because some 38 year old DT who's been playing since 1842 didn't like where the team was heading? I call massive bullshit on that.


    Perhaps a vet QB that is actually capable of leading a team? yeah, would be helpful. Even if you're a backup, you have some pull. I bet if Sage were to host a workout, he'd have gotten more than 7 people. Maybe not 40, but he'd get a turnout. Favre would get the whole team. Webb is in the same boat as Ponder, but he's a young kid that the vets seem to want to upgrade. Doesn't really scream respect. The issue is, we are young at the most important positions. AP isn't a leader, our QB is supposed to be our leader, but isn't. We don't seem to have that one team leader anymore. I'd love to have a guy like Brees, who is very vocal, and gets the offense AND defense pumped up before the game. Guy who the team listens to. We don't have that, it almost seems like our team has cliques.

    That isn't based on very much, but I get the impression that's the case.
    My guess, No one would have shown up for Sage either and all your other examples drive home/validate my very point.

    Hard to have a leader on a team that isn't a team. Hard to have a team when you have a bunch of players focusing on contracts instead of playing.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098985
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098976
    because aside from that , we haven't had a QB worth a damn since Culpepper left that you can draw valid comparasons of good play.


    Favourite is not the same as disliking a guy and purposely ignoring him.

    Lets put it this way, TO, aside from his one year with the Bills, has always been around 70 catches per season. The guy is the definition of a dick, but he's talented, so QB"s throw to him. Are you suggesting Ponder might dislike TO, and purposely not throw to him?

    QB's develop a favourite based on talent, skills, chemistry and ability to make him look good.

    Culpepper had Moss as a favourite, Favre had Rice, and without Rice, it was Harvin. Warner had Fitzgerald, Manning had Harrison/Wayne.
    Pepp wasn't that good. Our WR's carried him, along with a very good running game.

    TO works his ass off. TO would have shown up. Because of that the chemistry would have been there. Not a good example.
    Showing up doesn't mean you still can't piss off your QB.

    name me ONE QB TO ever had a good relationship with. Garcia, McNabb, Edwards, Palmer. Never worked out. Those QB's managed to put aside their differences and throw him the ball, because he's a good player. (Well, except for Edwards, but that was due more to inability to get him the ball)

    Not throwing to a guy because he can't catch is different than not throwing to a guy because you just don't like the person. If he's talented, and if he's on the team, use him.
    And yet the Noodle did throw to him when he had no other options.....See the game were the Noodle had his highest passing yards total ever.
    So your point is.... my point? If he's there, throw to him.

    If you need a first down, and you see Rice covered, Harvin covered, but Berian wide open, I'd take my chances with Berrian. Even though you might not get along, or he might not catch well, if he's there, use him.
    Apparantly can't use any type of example with you or you twist it into some ridiculous assumption as usual.
    Nope, that was my attempt at stopping you from quoting me to death. You seem to have gotten better at creating threads with a bazillion quotes in them as a means to stop a discussion.
    I have no response really, but I'll quote and answer anyway


    Perhaps a vet QB that is actually capable of leading a team? yeah, would be helpful. Even if you're a backup, you have some pull. I bet if Sage were to host a workout, he'd have gotten more than 7 people. Maybe not 40, but he'd get a turnout. Favre would get the whole team. Webb is in the same boat as Ponder, but he's a young kid that the vets seem to want to upgrade. Doesn't really scream respect. The issue is, we are young at the most important positions. AP isn't a leader, our QB is supposed to be our leader, but isn't. We don't seem to have that one team leader anymore. I'd love to have a guy like Brees, who is very vocal, and gets the offense AND defense pumped up before the game. Guy who the team listens to. We don't have that, it almost seems like our team has cliques.

    That isn't based on very much, but I get the impression that's the case.
    My guess, No one would have shown up for Sage either and all your other examples drive home/validate my very point.[/quote]

    I bet he gets more than 7

  7. #27
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098897
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1098890
    I am asking anyone who would like to see these endless, pointless debates cease.
    Please, post your opinion.

    This is becoming detrimental to the site. Petty pointless arguements.

    Maybe we can get the mods to start deleting this crap.
    But isn't almost everything a "petty pointless argument"?

    Not trying to start one here, or spit in your eye, but the fact is that since we are primarily a discussion based site, we're going to be flooded with discussions which may, at some point, reach the "endless, pointless" side of the line.

    People will always ponder the unproveable:

    Who was the best Vikings HC?

    Who was the best QB?

    Who was the best....

    see what I mean?

    And, aside from entertainment value, there is really no point to any of this. We're not affecting policy, and the Vikings aren't game planning based on what we write (although they SHOULD...we'd have canned Chiller LONG AGO). We're just a bunch of fans who spew our opinions - some more factually based than others - and see what happens.

    And while I sometimes, tire of having to post the same factual rebuttals to the same "stupid" assertions, I take comfort in knowing one thing...


    ...Marrdro is buying me beer.

    Caine
    You can make the argument most posts are pointless and petty, and in fact meningless, given the fact it's a fan site intended for entertainment purposes. I would go so far as to say that is accepted as obvious.

    But the word you missed was "endless".
    You see it's the redundancy of threads degenerating into the same tired, contentious debate I object to.

    And it is endless because the one poster who is on the wrong side of the issue lives in denial.

    Perhaps we shouldn't respond to his baiting!

    BTW, what kind of beer did you win?
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  8. #28
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    This "debate" has became incredibly stale and boring...about 6 months ago.

  9. #29
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1099023
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098897
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1098890
    I am asking anyone who would like to see these endless, pointless debates cease.
    Please, post your opinion.

    This is becoming detrimental to the site. Petty pointless arguements.

    Maybe we can get the mods to start deleting this crap.
    But isn't almost everything a "petty pointless argument"?

    Not trying to start one here, or spit in your eye, but the fact is that since we are primarily a discussion based site, we're going to be flooded with discussions which may, at some point, reach the "endless, pointless" side of the line.

    People will always ponder the unproveable:

    Who was the best Vikings HC?

    Who was the best QB?

    Who was the best....

    see what I mean?

    And, aside from entertainment value, there is really no point to any of this. We're not affecting policy, and the Vikings aren't game planning based on what we write (although they SHOULD...we'd have canned Chiller LONG AGO). We're just a bunch of fans who spew our opinions - some more factually based than others - and see what happens.

    And while I sometimes, tire of having to post the same factual rebuttals to the same "stupid" assertions, I take comfort in knowing one thing...


    ...Marrdro is buying me beer.

    Caine
    You can make the argument most posts are pointless and petty, and in fact meningless, given the fact it's a fan site intended for entertainment purposes. I would go so far as to say that is accepted as obvious.

    But the word you missed was "endless".
    You see it's the redundancy of threads degenerating into the same tired, contentious debate I object to.

    And it is endless because the one poster who is on the wrong side of the issue lives in denial.

    Perhaps we shouldn't respond to his baiting!

    BTW, what kind of beer did you win?
    Extrapolating from your comment: So, we need to ban Marrdro?

    :woohoo:

    As for the beer, Mr. Denial states that he has this season for Jackson to prove to ME that he's a worthwhile QB. Gonna be tough to do since Jackson won't see the field anywhere. That means that at the end of this season, Marrdro is buying me copious quantities of MGD light.

    ...see, I don't really like beer...I just love to pee....

    :whistle:

    Caine

  10. #30
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    Re: Favre vs TJ Arguments , Will it Ever End ?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1099031
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1099023
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098897
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1098890
    I am asking anyone who would like to see these endless, pointless debates cease.
    Please, post your opinion.

    This is becoming detrimental to the site. Petty pointless arguements.

    Maybe we can get the mods to start deleting this crap.
    But isn't almost everything a "petty pointless argument"?

    Not trying to start one here, or spit in your eye, but the fact is that since we are primarily a discussion based site, we're going to be flooded with discussions which may, at some point, reach the "endless, pointless" side of the line.

    People will always ponder the unproveable:

    Who was the best Vikings HC?

    Who was the best QB?

    Who was the best....

    see what I mean?

    And, aside from entertainment value, there is really no point to any of this. We're not affecting policy, and the Vikings aren't game planning based on what we write (although they SHOULD...we'd have canned Chiller LONG AGO). We're just a bunch of fans who spew our opinions - some more factually based than others - and see what happens.

    And while I sometimes, tire of having to post the same factual rebuttals to the same "stupid" assertions, I take comfort in knowing one thing...


    ...Marrdro is buying me beer.

    Caine
    You can make the argument most posts are pointless and petty, and in fact meningless, given the fact it's a fan site intended for entertainment purposes. I would go so far as to say that is accepted as obvious.

    But the word you missed was "endless".
    You see it's the redundancy of threads degenerating into the same tired, contentious debate I object to.

    And it is endless because the one poster who is on the wrong side of the issue lives in denial.

    Perhaps we shouldn't respond to his baiting!

    BTW, what kind of beer did you win?
    Extrapolating from your comment: So, we need to ban Marrdro?

    :woohoo:

    As for the beer, Mr. Denial states that he has this season for Jackson to prove to ME that he's a worthwhile QB. Gonna be tough to do since Jackson won't see the field anywhere. That means that at the end of this season, Marrdro is buying me copious quantities of MGD light.

    ...see, I don't really like beer...I just love to pee....

    :whistle:

    Caine
    Ha, when I pay beer bets its not with that crap.... A few local selections you can send something to me from.....

    Beer and Breweries in Virginia


    And I do have this season. Lest we forget the bet, which we can't cause I've pulled the particulars up at least 2 times to remind you of what was bet.

    And TJ will see the season this year. What will be hard is getting you to admit that you were wrong after he plays.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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