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  1. #101
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    vike_mike wrote:
    Absolutely not. Why in the world would we want to do that? If Sage was better than TJack, we would have traded him instead. So we should get Reynaud back as well right. He's shown great presence at New York.
    Truth there is the reason why Sage was traded over TJ was because he was more marketable. No one was asking for TJ especially with the preseason he had.

    I was upset about trading Reynaud but he has looked horrible as a return man so I won't complain about that anymore.
    How do we know that Sage was more marketable?

    Based on one good pre-season game against 3rd string scrubs running gimmen plays that everyone knew would work?

    Said this before, in preseason you work on packages. In most instances your starters work on new stuff that isn't always gonna work the first couple of times you run it. That is what TJ was doing and the rest of the team was doing.

    The stuff Sage was running was crap they knew was gonna work which was by design to make him look marketable.
    While I agree that pre-season is not a reliable indicator of a players progress, Tjack was not good. Nothing to do with the package, he just couldn't seem to make even simple throws.

    Of course the same people that will point to the preseason as why Tjack will fail, also scoffed at the notion of using preseason stats as barometer in the past(when Tjack had great numbers).

    For me the 08 season is the best barometer of what Tjack will give us. IMHO, if he plays at the same level as 08, he will give us a chance to win most games. Hopefully he has improved some since then.

    I think one reason Sage was more marketable is because he was under contract. Also they traded Sage for a 4th round pick, they wanted a 3rd for Tjack(based on his tender).
    First, I don't think TJ was ever offered.

    Second, you act as if TJ didn't make any throws when in fact he did. The just weren't to the packages Sage did. Again, go back and look at what was run with TJ in there.......Screens, Short Dump Offs to backs etc etc etc all designed to get our OL and RB's in synch on those plays.

    Another thing to look at is when TJ did throw to someone other than the backs, did he get it to the right read (In almost all instances yes) and then, did the it hit the reciever in a catchable place (Yes, in almost all instances) and then, only then, did the reciever catch it. That one is a fun one to look at and bares some scrutiny on what the staff did with respect to the WR shuffle, including the trade of DR.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying TJ was spectacular. I'm saying he did the right thing based on the packages he was given.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #102
    Brick is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Marrdro wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    vike_mike wrote:
    Absolutely not. Why in the world would we want to do that? If Sage was better than TJack, we would have traded him instead. So we should get Reynaud back as well right. He's shown great presence at New York.
    Truth there is the reason why Sage was traded over TJ was because he was more marketable. No one was asking for TJ especially with the preseason he had.

    I was upset about trading Reynaud but he has looked horrible as a return man so I won't complain about that anymore.
    How do we know that Sage was more marketable?

    Based on one good pre-season game against 3rd string scrubs running gimmen plays that everyone knew would work?

    Said this before, in preseason you work on packages. In most instances your starters work on new stuff that isn't always gonna work the first couple of times you run it. That is what TJ was doing and the rest of the team was doing.

    The stuff Sage was running was crap they knew was gonna work which was by design to make him look marketable.
    While I agree that pre-season is not a reliable indicator of a players progress, Tjack was not good. Nothing to do with the package, he just couldn't seem to make even simple throws.

    Of course the same people that will point to the preseason as why Tjack will fail, also scoffed at the notion of using preseason stats as barometer in the past(when Tjack had great numbers).

    For me the 08 season is the best barometer of what Tjack will give us. IMHO, if he plays at the same level as 08, he will give us a chance to win most games. Hopefully he has improved some since then.

    I think one reason Sage was more marketable is because he was under contract. Also they traded Sage for a 4th round pick, they wanted a 3rd for Tjack(based on his tender).
    First, I don't think TJ was ever offered.

    Second, you act as if TJ didn't make any throws when in fact he did. The just weren't to the packages Sage did. Again, go back and look at what was run with TJ in there.......Screens, Short Dump Offs to backs etc etc etc all designed to get our OL and RB's in synch on those plays.

    Another thing to look at is when TJ did throw to someone other than the backs, did he get it to the right read (In almost all instances yes) and then, did the it hit the reciever in a catchable place (Yes, in almost all instances) and then, only then, did the reciever catch it. That one is a fun one to look at and bares some scrutiny on what the staff did with respect to the WR shuffle, including the trade of DR.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying TJ was spectacular. I'm saying he did the right thing based on the packages he was given.
    Just blame to OL and WR.
    None

  3. #103
    Caine's Avatar
    Caine is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Infidel wrote:
    It's not a QB problem.....it's a team problem--and the team will win or lose, not the QB.
    Its the team now huh. In a way I will almost agree with you, however, with a couple of exceptions (JA/Noodle) the Team played pretty damn good.

    Improve the QB play and the RDE play and we would have won that game. Probably a couple of others as well.

    The team got Favre his injuries and interceptions by failing in the area of pass protection......UTTERLY FAILING as he got hammered for several games and the injuries accumulated.
    I see you are still spewing forth this crap. How about this, the QB utterlly failed the OL by not being mobile, the QB utterlly failed the OL for holding the ball to long, the QB utterlly failed the WR's cause he missed them when they were wide open, the QB utterlly failed the WR's by not seeing them when they were wide open or failed to throw to them cause they were wide open but to far down the field or on a route his gimp arm couldn't make the throw to.

    Comeon, its a team game, but you've been harping the "Its the OL" problem since you decided to grace us with your presence. Just cause you keep chirping it doesn't mean we are buying it.
    Oh...NOW you want to put it all on Favre.

    Last season, when he was successful, you were dead set on handing the accolades out to the "TEAM"...in fact, you are on record as repeatedly saying that this "team" could "carry a Quarterback" to victory.

    Now, however, you want to change your tune and lay all the blame on Favre.

    How convenient for you that you get to flip flop your criteria...much like Brick with his "statistics".

    Mr Kerry? Is that you?

    The truth is, while Favre has played like crap - and no one is saying he hasn't - the TEAM has played pretty poorly too.

    In the first 4 games, the O-line didn't even bother to show up...Favre was plastered repeatedly. Hold the ball too long? He didn't have a chance to. But the line blocked well against a depleted Green Bay defensive front...so now it's ALL on Favre. We conveniently forget the first four weeks of shitastic blocking and blame Favre...

    Until Moss got here, our receivers couldn't get open to save their lives. Sure, Favre threw some crappy balls, but that mighty receiver corps that YOU claim can carry a QB couldn't carry their own jock straps...until Moss got here. Once that happened, Harvin suddenly shows up again. Now we get to conveniently forget the first 4 games - AGAIN - and just point to Favre's bad throws.

    Again, no one disputes that Favre has played badly. But isn't it POSSIBLE that had the line actuially BLOCKED - and not sacrificed Favre for 4 games - and had the receivers actually gotten open - and not forced him to force the throws - that we MIGHT be in better shape now all around?

    In short, if the team had ACTUALLY been able to carry a QB - as you have repeatedly claimed - don't you think they might have done so?

    So, while I don't blame the "team" quite to the extent that Infidel does, there's no way that they deserve the free pass you seem intent on giving them so you can justify advocating Jackson.

    How telling that Jackson gets to step in (maybe) after Moss is here to fix the receiver corps, and Sullivan is back to shore up the middle...


    ...Yup, Marrdro, that "team" sure carried Favre....all the way to the bus...and then you threw him under it.

    Caine
    LOL. Don't try to take my discussion point with the Infidel as evidence that I've changed my stance.

    I still say this team can carry a QB (ala 118 yds vs Dallas = win).

    What this team can't do is carry a QB that keeps giving the ball back to the other team at the rate our current QB is doing it at right now.

    And I am not just blaming the Noodle. Again, addressing the specific discussion point that the Infidel brought up. I am just as pissed at JA and the DL as I am with the QB play.
    And I still throw the BS flag on that, Marr.

    You know as well as I do that the Offense hasn't shown up...except for Peterson. The O-Line finally settled down with Sully's return...against a depleted Green Bay front. The receivers were shiite until Moss showed up.

    On Defense, hell, our front 4 have been AWOL. They have 3 1/2 sacks between them. Our secondary has been ineffective all season too. I am amazed every time our opponents have to punt because, for the life of me, I can't figure out how we stop them...ever....anymore.

    Again, this team couldn't carry water. And the 118 versus Dallas only proves that we could beat a team that is 1-5 FOR A REASON!!!! They suck just a little more than we do right now.

    So, again, this isn't about a team carry a QB who is giving the ball away, this is more about a QB who is making desperation plays and forcing things he shouldn't be because this team hasn't shown up yet.

    Caine

  4. #104
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Mr. Anderson said:

    Do you really believe that the line failed Favre on Sunday night? I thought they played very well.... I really can't put this week's turnovers and Favre's injury on the line.

    But I didn't say that. I said they failed for several games and he took tremendous damage.

    Sunday night they did better because Sully was back and for two other important reasons:

    1. Loadholt was allowed to hold most of the game and only called when he started grabbing face mask as he got tired. He was defending their only real pass rushing threat.

    2. Packer line was badly injured.

    I hope nobody is thinking that the O-Line problem has miraculously healed itself. The Noodles are still there and they haven't changed much, if at all.

    Let's see how they do against the Pats.

    I don't doubt that they fall apart.
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  5. #105
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Caine said:

    So, again, this isn't about a team carry a QB who is giving the ball away, this is more about a QB who is making desperation plays and forcing things he shouldn't be because this team hasn't shown up yet.
    EXACTLY!
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  6. #106
    purpledoom's Avatar
    purpledoom is offline Starter
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Marrdro wrote:
    purpledoom wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:

    I highly doubt that will happen. And I'm not even sure it should. Do I think he should play ? No not really, but I honestly believe his teammates believe in him and for him to bench himself is painfully like saying "ok I've had enough". Chilly and the docs need to tell him take a seat.
    Good points that are hard to dispute, however.......

    He is supposed to be a proffesional, heck some even say a HOF'r waiting to happen.

    That kindof cat should be big enough to say, "Coach, I can't go". Truth of the matter is, I really expected him to say it last Sunday and think he would have if it wasn't for the small fact that he was at Lambblow.

    Again, if he is the leader most on here think he is, it is what he should do.
    I can't find it within myself to disagree with you however. One could easily say he would be quitting on the team. Sooo..I suspect Favre, Chilly and whoever are finding themselves in a difficult situation hunh.

  7. #107
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Infidel wrote:
    It's not a QB problem.....it's a team problem--and the team will win or lose, not the QB.
    Its the team now huh. In a way I will almost agree with you, however, with a couple of exceptions (JA/Noodle) the Team played pretty damn good.

    Improve the QB play and the RDE play and we would have won that game. Probably a couple of others as well.

    The team got Favre his injuries and interceptions by failing in the area of pass protection......UTTERLY FAILING as he got hammered for several games and the injuries accumulated.
    I see you are still spewing forth this crap. How about this, the QB utterlly failed the OL by not being mobile, the QB utterlly failed the OL for holding the ball to long, the QB utterlly failed the WR's cause he missed them when they were wide open, the QB utterlly failed the WR's by not seeing them when they were wide open or failed to throw to them cause they were wide open but to far down the field or on a route his gimp arm couldn't make the throw to.

    Comeon, its a team game, but you've been harping the "Its the OL" problem since you decided to grace us with your presence. Just cause you keep chirping it doesn't mean we are buying it.
    Oh...NOW you want to put it all on Favre.

    Last season, when he was successful, you were dead set on handing the accolades out to the "TEAM"...in fact, you are on record as repeatedly saying that this "team" could "carry a Quarterback" to victory.

    Now, however, you want to change your tune and lay all the blame on Favre.

    How convenient for you that you get to flip flop your criteria...much like Brick with his "statistics".

    Mr Kerry? Is that you?

    The truth is, while Favre has played like crap - and no one is saying he hasn't - the TEAM has played pretty poorly too.

    In the first 4 games, the O-line didn't even bother to show up...Favre was plastered repeatedly. Hold the ball too long? He didn't have a chance to. But the line blocked well against a depleted Green Bay defensive front...so now it's ALL on Favre. We conveniently forget the first four weeks of shitastic blocking and blame Favre...

    Until Moss got here, our receivers couldn't get open to save their lives. Sure, Favre threw some crappy balls, but that mighty receiver corps that YOU claim can carry a QB couldn't carry their own jock straps...until Moss got here. Once that happened, Harvin suddenly shows up again. Now we get to conveniently forget the first 4 games - AGAIN - and just point to Favre's bad throws.

    Again, no one disputes that Favre has played badly. But isn't it POSSIBLE that had the line actuially BLOCKED - and not sacrificed Favre for 4 games - and had the receivers actually gotten open - and not forced him to force the throws - that we MIGHT be in better shape now all around?

    In short, if the team had ACTUALLY been able to carry a QB - as you have repeatedly claimed - don't you think they might have done so?

    So, while I don't blame the "team" quite to the extent that Infidel does, there's no way that they deserve the free pass you seem intent on giving them so you can justify advocating Jackson.

    How telling that Jackson gets to step in (maybe) after Moss is here to fix the receiver corps, and Sullivan is back to shore up the middle...


    ...Yup, Marrdro, that "team" sure carried Favre....all the way to the bus...and then you threw him under it.

    Caine
    LOL. Don't try to take my discussion point with the Infidel as evidence that I've changed my stance.

    I still say this team can carry a QB (ala 118 yds vs Dallas = win).

    What this team can't do is carry a QB that keeps giving the ball back to the other team at the rate our current QB is doing it at right now.

    And I am not just blaming the Noodle. Again, addressing the specific discussion point that the Infidel brought up. I am just as pissed at JA and the DL as I am with the QB play.
    And I still throw the BS flag on that, Marr.

    You know as well as I do that the Offense hasn't shown up...except for Peterson. The O-Line finally settled down with Sully's return...against a depleted Green Bay front. The receivers were shiite until Moss showed up.

    On Defense, hell, our front 4 have been AWOL. They have 3 1/2 sacks between them. Our secondary has been ineffective all season too. I am amazed every time our opponents have to punt because, for the life of me, I can't figure out how we stop them...ever....anymore.

    Again, this team couldn't carry water. And the 118 versus Dallas only proves that we could beat a team that is 1-5 FOR A REASON!!!! They suck just a little more than we do right now.

    So, again, this isn't about a team carry a QB who is giving the ball away, this is more about a QB who is making desperation plays and forcing things he shouldn't be because this team hasn't shown up yet.

    Caine
    Good points but this is getting back to the question I asked you before, when we say team are we saying current starters or when the starters return.

    Pre-Randy I was pretty vocal that our WR corps was broke without a cat to draw doubles that would open things up for PH and BB. Since Randy, we are now seeing a improvement in both PH and BB.

    OL, I was happy with thier performance, but agree it wasn't good enough to carry anybody. My guess, this week against the Pats it will play even better than it did last week.

    DL. I have no idea how to fix that. I am almost of the mind that two of them were taking Roids and possibly three of them. We should have addressed this position in the draft but didn't. Hopefully this year. In the end though, they are playing good enough to win games, just not carry the offense.

    QB. This team, when healthy can carry a QB. But if the QB continues to give the ball away, well, no team other than one with a defense like the Jets, can overcome that problem.

    Time to let the Noodle take a small break and see if our 2nd string can be a game manager and let this team carry him a bit.

    The OL and improved WR corps should help alot in that area.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #108
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    purpledoom wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    purpledoom wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:

    I highly doubt that will happen. And I'm not even sure it should. Do I think he should play ? No not really, but I honestly believe his teammates believe in him and for him to bench himself is painfully like saying "ok I've had enough". Chilly and the docs need to tell him take a seat.
    Good points that are hard to dispute, however.......

    He is supposed to be a proffesional, heck some even say a HOF'r waiting to happen.

    That kindof cat should be big enough to say, "Coach, I can't go". Truth of the matter is, I really expected him to say it last Sunday and think he would have if it wasn't for the small fact that he was at Lambblow.

    Again, if he is the leader most on here think he is, it is what he should do.
    I can't find it within myself to disagree with you however. One could easily say he would be quitting on the team. Sooo..I suspect Favre, Chilly and whoever are finding themselves in a difficult situation hunh.
    No No, PD, I misslead you. I am not asking him to quit on the team, I am asking him to step down until he is healthy enough to play again.

    That, in no way, is quiting on your team, infact its called being a leader and would go along way in garnering respect of his teams and chuckleheads like me who think he is all about himself.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #109
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Mardro said:

    How about this, the QB utterlly failed the OL by not being mobile...
    LOL! That's the way to twist things around backwards.

    You crack me up, my friend.

    From the first play of the first game this year Favre got hammered into the turf due to what was acknowledged repeatedly by all the experts (except you) as extremely poor to ZERO pass protection.

    The hits were brutal, so if he's not mobile now, there's a good reason.

    Careful.....you're going to go down a couple of lines on the old spread sheet if you keep this up.
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  10. #110
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Favre has fractured ankle.

    Marrdro wrote:
    purpledoom wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:

    I highly doubt that will happen. And I'm not even sure it should. Do I think he should play ? No not really, but I honestly believe his teammates believe in him and for him to bench himself is painfully like saying "ok I've had enough". Chilly and the docs need to tell him take a seat.
    Good points that are hard to dispute, however.......

    He is supposed to be a proffesional, heck some even say a HOF'r waiting to happen.

    That kindof cat should be big enough to say, "Coach, I can't go". Truth of the matter is, I really expected him to say it last Sunday and think he would have if it wasn't for the small fact that he was at Lambblow.

    Again, if he is the leader most on here think he is, it is what he should do.

    1: Show me someone who DOESN'T think Favre is a first ballot HOF guy?

    2: So, being "Professional" means you do what a handful of armchair Quarterbacks advocate? You quit? You tell the team that BEGGED you to come back,

    "Uh...sorry fellers...Marrdro and Brick, they don't want me to play no more...so I'm gonna hold me the clipboard while Travis....err.... Tabernacle.....errrr ....Tickle-me-Elmo.....ummm ......hey. What in the hell is that kids name, anyway? Well, I'm gonna let HIM get his ass kicked.....umnmmmm ...... I mean "Lead this team to victory" while I heal up some."

    What he should do is MAN UP. Quit making excuses about not being 100% and go out there and MOTIVATE THIS FEWKIN TEAM!!!

    THAT'S what he should do!!

    Caine

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