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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1090535
    He did not run the T2 when he began coaching in college at trinity either. Don't forget, he has Singletary here who played the 46 with him under Buddy.
    I looked back to his college days but couldn't find out what he ran at Trinity but if I'm not sure, was the T-2 as prolific (even known) in those days?

    I know that when asked, they said that it really started back in the days of the Steel Curtain, and was used a bit by Dungy in MN, but really didn't come to its glory until Tony was in Tampa (96). If I'm not mistaken, Leslie left Trinity in 95 or 96ish timeframe.

    On a side note, the 46 reference to Singletary is interesting. I wonder what Pagacs background is in that scheme?

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  2. #22
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090601
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1090523
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090501
    *snip*
    Guys, Leslies forte/background is the T2. Why would he change from his strength.

    In the end, I think Purple Floyd is the closest. Leslie wanted to change the players opinion of the HC's role on the staff and tried to move from the "Authoritarian" leadership style the Chiller used.

    When he did that, Pagac got more agreesive with HIS gameplan and HIS playcalling.
    That's not necessarily true. His most recent experience is with the Tampa 2, as a DB coach in Indianapolis from 2005-2006 and our DC, but he played 5 seasons in the 46 defense, coached under Jim Johnson and Marvin Lewis. As far as I know, he did not employ the Tampa 2 in Cincinnati as their defensive coordinator, I can't really find much about it though. The numbers lead me to believe that he did not. 20 interceptions as a unit in 2004 really doesn't sound like a Tampa 2 defense to me.

    I think he's defensively well versed, a smart guy. I don't think Dungy hired him because he knew the system, I think Dungy hired him because of his intelligence, playing experience, and character. I think Childress hired him because of his intelligence and the assumption that he is capable of running the defense that Childress wanted us to use.

    He's no more experienced in the 46, Johnson's blitz-happy scheme, the Tampa 2, or whatever the hell Marvin Lewis wanted him to run. One thing we do know: all of those defenses were damn good at one point or another.
    I'm not an expert on the Bengals as I'm just a part time fan, but I do know a bit about them.

    When Leslie was there, he and Marv had issues related to play calling not scheme.

    Leslie ran the 4-3 C2, can't remember what they called the scheme that Breshnahan (sp Z) ran but I think it was a was a variation of a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, which Zimmer seem to try to revamp a bit from what Breshnahan was trying to run, back to the C2 (with a C3 Cloud Look) they run now.

    Not sure about what he did under Johnson but his forte, as a coach, has been mostly T-2/C-2.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care who gets the credit for being more agressive with the CB's after Pagac took over, (and if they move away from the C-2/T-2), as long as they keep doing it, but to start saying that it was the Chiller who was holding him back is kindof a stretch if you ask me.
    The back end doesn't make a defense.

    There's so much more to Jim Johnson, Marvin Lewis, and Leslie Frazier than two deep safeties.

    What the Eagles did under Johnson looks nothing like what we do now. Same goes for Marvin Lewis with the Ravens.

    Which is why I'm interested in seeing what some linebacker guys like Pagac and Singletary can do with the defense. I think if we plug in a new DT and a playmaker at the safety position, this defense is going to be fantastic. I don't care what scheme we run, and like the article I posted in the Unsetttled QB Situation thread, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly coaches are doing because they're pulling bits and pieces from all over the place.

    Combinations of man and zone coverage, stunts, delay and zone blitzes, that whole amoeba look that the jets and ravens use... whatever it is, if you have the athletes, you can make it work.

  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1090637
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090601
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1090523
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090501
    *snip*
    Guys, Leslies forte/background is the T2. Why would he change from his strength.

    In the end, I think Purple Floyd is the closest. Leslie wanted to change the players opinion of the HC's role on the staff and tried to move from the "Authoritarian" leadership style the Chiller used.

    When he did that, Pagac got more agreesive with HIS gameplan and HIS playcalling.
    That's not necessarily true. His most recent experience is with the Tampa 2, as a DB coach in Indianapolis from 2005-2006 and our DC, but he played 5 seasons in the 46 defense, coached under Jim Johnson and Marvin Lewis. As far as I know, he did not employ the Tampa 2 in Cincinnati as their defensive coordinator, I can't really find much about it though. The numbers lead me to believe that he did not. 20 interceptions as a unit in 2004 really doesn't sound like a Tampa 2 defense to me.

    I think he's defensively well versed, a smart guy. I don't think Dungy hired him because he knew the system, I think Dungy hired him because of his intelligence, playing experience, and character. I think Childress hired him because of his intelligence and the assumption that he is capable of running the defense that Childress wanted us to use.

    He's no more experienced in the 46, Johnson's blitz-happy scheme, the Tampa 2, or whatever the hell Marvin Lewis wanted him to run. One thing we do know: all of those defenses were damn good at one point or another.
    I'm not an expert on the Bengals as I'm just a part time fan, but I do know a bit about them.

    When Leslie was there, he and Marv had issues related to play calling not scheme.

    Leslie ran the 4-3 C2, can't remember what they called the scheme that Breshnahan (sp Z) ran but I think it was a was a variation of a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, which Zimmer seem to try to revamp a bit from what Breshnahan was trying to run, back to the C2 (with a C3 Cloud Look) they run now.

    Not sure about what he did under Johnson but his forte, as a coach, has been mostly T-2/C-2.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care who gets the credit for being more agressive with the CB's after Pagac took over, (and if they move away from the C-2/T-2), as long as they keep doing it, but to start saying that it was the Chiller who was holding him back is kindof a stretch if you ask me.
    The back end doesn't make a defense.

    There's so much more to Jim Johnson, Marvin Lewis, and Leslie Frazier than two deep safeties.

    What the Eagles did under Johnson looks nothing like what we do now. Same goes for Marvin Lewis with the Ravens.
    As I said, I'm not so sure what he did under Johnson (99-02).


    Not sure about what he did under Johnson
    What I am familiar with is what he has done since (03-present) and that is to employ the C2.

    Which is why I'm interested in seeing what some linebacker guys like Pagac and Singletary can do with the defense. I think if we plug in a new DT and a playmaker at the safety position, this defense is going to be fantastic. I don't care what scheme we run, and like the article I posted in the Unsetttled QB Situation thread, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly coaches are doing because they're pulling bits and pieces from all over the place.

    Combinations of man and zone coverage, stunts, delay and zone blitzes, that whole amoeba look that the jets and ravens use... whatever it is, if you have the athletes, you can make it work.
    Again, I agree with this in total, almost.

    I think you have a good idea of what they will run, based on the players we have and what the staff brings.

    It will still have a 4-3 (C-2) as the base defense.

    Where I agree is that I anticipate (not the Amoeba) the change, if anything, will track with what we saw when Pagac took over.

    A bit more of a C-3 (Cloud) look mixed with our LB's doing a better job of disguising their blitz packages instead of showing a "Mug" look and then dropping back like they do now.

    I for one, was going absolutely crazy watching or LB'rs in that "mug" look pre-snap all the time. Got to the point that all you had to do was look to see if Chad was in a gap that was closest to the slot, you knew he was gonna drop back in coverage. If he wasn't, he and EJ were gonna blitz with one of them delaying a half a tic or so.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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