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  1. #11
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090503
    Vikings coach Leslie Frazier told reporters last week at the NFL scouting combine that the team was going to try to upgrade its defensive line, either through the draft or free agency. Frazier was not happy that the Vikings' four-year streak of finishing first or second in the NFL against the run ended last season as the team fell to ninth.
    Frazier emphasizes improving D-line

    Well Duh. Problem is, its to late to try to fix it with the draft. That cat won't be up to snuff for 2 to 3 years.

    You can't upgrade it by keeping two of these three cause they are the reason it has slippped.

    Frazier focused his comments on the tackle spot, mentioning Fred Evans, Letroy Guion and Jimmy Kennedy. Evans, however, also could end up a free agent.
    Bring in a Vet and draft a DT early (instead of drafting CB every year cause that hasn't fixed anything) and you will see our defense finally playing the way it should play.

    On a side note:

    The good news is that this draft class of defensive linemen is considered to be extremely deep.
    Take that with a grain of salt. It is deep, at DE and 3/5 technique DT's. Thats good news for our LDE problems, not so good of news when you look at trying to replace Phat Pat.
    On side note the Saints just signed Shaun Rodgers, who could have been a great guy to step in for PW at DT.

  2. #12
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090506
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090503
    Vikings coach Leslie Frazier told reporters last week at the NFL scouting combine that the team was going to try to upgrade its defensive line, either through the draft or free agency. Frazier was not happy that the Vikings' four-year streak of finishing first or second in the NFL against the run ended last season as the team fell to ninth.
    Frazier emphasizes improving D-line

    Well Duh. Problem is, its to late to try to fix it with the draft. That cat won't be up to snuff for 2 to 3 years.

    You can't upgrade it by keeping two of these three cause they are the reason it has slippped.

    Frazier focused his comments on the tackle spot, mentioning Fred Evans, Letroy Guion and Jimmy Kennedy. Evans, however, also could end up a free agent.
    Bring in a Vet and draft a DT early (instead of drafting CB every year cause that hasn't fixed anything) and you will see our defense finally playing the way it should play.

    On a side note:

    The good news is that this draft class of defensive linemen is considered to be extremely deep.
    Take that with a grain of salt. It is deep, at DE and 3/5 technique DT's. Thats good news for our LDE problems, not so good of news when you look at trying to replace Phat Pat.
    On side note the Saints just signed Shaun Rodgers, who could have been a great guy to step in for PW at DT.
    Good point. You saw that the Pats signed Stroud as well right?

    Makes one wonder if the Vikes are gonna do anything but Tender a LB.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #13
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    I think the teams that are signing guys now will probably be getting them at a discount compared to what they will pay after the CBA as the new contract will probably be weighted heavier towards vets and not as generous to rookies.

    Hopefully they are doing more behind the scenes than we are seeing on the surface.

  4. #14
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090501
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090493
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090434
    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1090429
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090427
    Vikings coach Leslie Frazier was asked last week at the NFL Scouting Combine in Indianapolis if he and coordinator Fred Pagac will give the team's defense a different identity........snip..........

    I dont know how much the identity will change......
    Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    It sure changed when he let Pagac take over.......

    Frazier said that Pagac called 100 percent of the defenses last season after he became the coordinator.

    "He did a great job for us down the stretch, and I really felt that that was necessary under the circumstances that we were in at that time of the year,
    Could it be that Leslie actually did a self assesment and felt he was actually hindering/hurting the defense?

    Frazier said he will remain involved in the defense, but that it won't be to the point it was when he was the coordinator.

    .....snip......But I want to be a true head coach. I want to be able to assist Bill [Musgrave, the offensive coordinator], along with Mike Priefer, our special teams coordinator, and really manage our football team and not just be tied to one side of the ball or another. But Ill definitely have input on defense."
    I guess I can say this. So far I like what I'm hearing out of Coach Frazier.
    I still believe marr that Frazier was only calling plays within Childress T2/C2 defense. You notice he did not stay with it long after Chilly was out of the way.
    You might be correct, but Leslie has alot more T2/C2 background than he does anything else.

    I still believe that coach Pagac got away from it, and the quotes we've read from Leslie kindof bare that out IMHO.

    Regardless of who gets the credit, the defense sure did play alot better after Leslie made the move. Again, back to the quotes, I think our new D-coord should get the nod.
    While yes, Leslie is a big T2 guy, remember, when Chilly came here, he hand-picked Tomlin, because he knew the scheme that Chilly wanted to run. Notice Tomlin completely left the D alone in Pittsburgh? Smart move. I think Chilly had the general plan of what he wanted the D to look like, but didn't know the ins and outs well enough to really run it (Like Bellicheck can) I do believe, and this is pure speculation, but I think he was heavily involved in defense. While not drawing up plays and whatnot, but he told Tomlin, then Fraizer how he wanted things done. might explain why we gave cushions to WR's in the cover-2. Chilly's method of confusing the QB? haha


    Once Chilly hit the road, I'd say they still stuck with the general scheme, since you can't really change mid-season, but they had the freedom to do what they want, how they want. They have two defensive guys running a defense, without the nagging from some bald moustache-faced QB guru.
    Wait a minute, wait a minute, weren't you one of the cats on here who were trying to say the defense was good cause the Chiller didn't have a say in it? DOUBLE WOW
    Yes and no. It is Tomlin or Fraizers scheme, they draw up the plays and call most of it, but I bet Chilly has a large say in it. I never said the reason our D was so good was because Chilly didn't have a say in it. In fact, I've often said how overrated our D is, which IMO it has been the whole time Chilly has been here. We don't deserve to be ranked as a top 5 D, because honestly, we're not. We can't stop teams. We stop the run game, then they put up 300 through the air
    Guys, Leslies forte/background is the T2. Why would he change from his strength.

    In the end, I think Purple Floyd is the closest. Leslie wanted to change the players opinion of the HC's role on the staff and tried to move from the "Authoritarian" leadership style the Chiller used.

    When he did that, Pagac got more agreesive with HIS gameplan and HIS playcalling.
    I can agree with all that, however, it's likely a combination of things. I have no doubt Leslie wan'ts to create a whole new atmosphere in the locker room, and perception of the coaches. I'm sure he knows just how much respect Chilly got, and I'm sure he wants to be respected, not just for how he handles situations, but also for being a good coach. That means not micromanaging, trying to control everything, but letting the coordinators do their jobs.

    I find it funny, the game after Chilly got canned, Bevell called the best game of the season I think. Our D actually looked half-decent too. and yes, while they were up and down for the rest of the year, we saw new, positive things we weren't seeing with Chilly.

  5. #15
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    i agree we know they tendered greenway and have sent Rice a contract. though there the high profile free agents outta the 19 we have they have most likely sent contracts to others that the Media dont consider high profile enough to bother reporting on since there is so much more to speculate on.

  6. #16
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090501
    *snip*
    Guys, Leslies forte/background is the T2. Why would he change from his strength.

    In the end, I think Purple Floyd is the closest. Leslie wanted to change the players opinion of the HC's role on the staff and tried to move from the "Authoritarian" leadership style the Chiller used.

    When he did that, Pagac got more agreesive with HIS gameplan and HIS playcalling.
    That's not necessarily true. His most recent experience is with the Tampa 2, as a DB coach in Indianapolis from 2005-2006 and our DC, but he played 5 seasons in the 46 defense, coached under Jim Johnson and Marvin Lewis. As far as I know, he did not employ the Tampa 2 in Cincinnati as their defensive coordinator, I can't really find much about it though. The numbers lead me to believe that he did not. 20 interceptions as a unit in 2004 really doesn't sound like a Tampa 2 defense to me.

    I think he's defensively well versed, a smart guy. I don't think Dungy hired him because he knew the system, I think Dungy hired him because of his intelligence, playing experience, and character. I think Childress hired him because of his intelligence and the assumption that he is capable of running the defense that Childress wanted us to use.

    He's no more experienced in the 46, Johnson's blitz-happy scheme, the Tampa 2, or whatever the hell Marvin Lewis wanted him to run. One thing we do know: all of those defenses were damn good at one point or another.

  7. #17
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Good Points, as always, Mr. A!

    What I like best so far about Frazier is that, I think, we're seeing that he is more willing to bring in guys with experience, who really know their jobs and then, not only listen to their points of view, but let them do what they're good at and the job they were hired for. Its got to be a team aspect on that level too...you never know what the guy next to you is seeing, if you don't consider his point of view!

    And I like the Steelers reference as to not changing our defense! Consistency helps a crapload since there are vets who know the scheme to help the learning curve of the new guys, whether FAs or rookies. Look what having the same defense for years has done for teams like PIT, NE, BAL, NYG etc...perennial contenders!


    Theres some areas we want to improve on defense, but the characteristics of the defense wont change a lot. Weve got to shore up some areas and part of that will be an infusion of youth and make sure that schematically were doing the right things.

    "That's a scenario where we want to do some things that can really help our defensive line," said Frazier, who started last season as defensive coordinator and ended as head coach. "We're aging at one of the spots, we need to do some things to improve. One of the mantras has been being good against the run, stopping the run. We've kind of slipped a little bit, so we have to take a look at some things and see what we have to do to improve in that area."
    Sorry he's calling out BigP, but hey, you've got to calls em as ye sees em!

    Sure looks like we want a DT early!! Guys that far over 300 who can move enough to stuff the run and get pressure are pretty rare! Too bad Dareus blew up the combine, he woulda been real nice at 12!!! Now I think he may go before Fairly...!?
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  8. #18
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1090523
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090501
    *snip*
    Guys, Leslies forte/background is the T2. Why would he change from his strength.

    In the end, I think Purple Floyd is the closest. Leslie wanted to change the players opinion of the HC's role on the staff and tried to move from the "Authoritarian" leadership style the Chiller used.

    When he did that, Pagac got more agreesive with HIS gameplan and HIS playcalling.
    That's not necessarily true. His most recent experience is with the Tampa 2, as a DB coach in Indianapolis from 2005-2006 and our DC, but he played 5 seasons in the 46 defense, coached under Jim Johnson and Marvin Lewis. As far as I know, he did not employ the Tampa 2 in Cincinnati as their defensive coordinator, I can't really find much about it though. The numbers lead me to believe that he did not. 20 interceptions as a unit in 2004 really doesn't sound like a Tampa 2 defense to me.

    I think he's defensively well versed, a smart guy. I don't think Dungy hired him because he knew the system, I think Dungy hired him because of his intelligence, playing experience, and character. I think Childress hired him because of his intelligence and the assumption that he is capable of running the defense that Childress wanted us to use.

    He's no more experienced in the 46, Johnson's blitz-happy scheme, the Tampa 2, or whatever the hell Marvin Lewis wanted him to run. One thing we do know: all of those defenses were damn good at one point or another.
    He did not run the T2 when he began coaching in college at trinity either. Don't forget, he has Singletary here who played the 46 with him under Buddy.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  9. #19
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    [/quote]

    Sorry he's calling out BigP, but hey, you've got to calls em as ye sees em!

    Sure looks like we want a DT early!! Guys that far over 300 who can move enough to stuff the run and get pressure are pretty rare! Too bad Dareus blew up the combine, he woulda been real nice at 12!!! Now I think he may go before Fairly...!?[/quote]

    Dareus was an absolute FREAK at the combine from what I saw. And as you pointed out, I think he goes before Fairley now.

  10. #20
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Don't look for identity of defense to change much

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1090523
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090501
    *snip*
    Guys, Leslies forte/background is the T2. Why would he change from his strength.

    In the end, I think Purple Floyd is the closest. Leslie wanted to change the players opinion of the HC's role on the staff and tried to move from the "Authoritarian" leadership style the Chiller used.

    When he did that, Pagac got more agreesive with HIS gameplan and HIS playcalling.
    That's not necessarily true. His most recent experience is with the Tampa 2, as a DB coach in Indianapolis from 2005-2006 and our DC, but he played 5 seasons in the 46 defense, coached under Jim Johnson and Marvin Lewis. As far as I know, he did not employ the Tampa 2 in Cincinnati as their defensive coordinator, I can't really find much about it though. The numbers lead me to believe that he did not. 20 interceptions as a unit in 2004 really doesn't sound like a Tampa 2 defense to me.

    I think he's defensively well versed, a smart guy. I don't think Dungy hired him because he knew the system, I think Dungy hired him because of his intelligence, playing experience, and character. I think Childress hired him because of his intelligence and the assumption that he is capable of running the defense that Childress wanted us to use.

    He's no more experienced in the 46, Johnson's blitz-happy scheme, the Tampa 2, or whatever the hell Marvin Lewis wanted him to run. One thing we do know: all of those defenses were damn good at one point or another.
    I'm not an expert on the Bengals as I'm just a part time fan, but I do know a bit about them.

    When Leslie was there, he and Marv had issues related to play calling not scheme.

    Leslie ran the 4-3 C2, can't remember what they called the scheme that Breshnahan (sp Z) ran but I think it was a was a variation of a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, which Zimmer seem to try to revamp a bit from what Breshnahan was trying to run, back to the C2 (with a C3 Cloud Look) they run now.

    Not sure about what he did under Johnson but his forte, as a coach, has been mostly T-2/C-2.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care who gets the credit for being more agressive with the CB's after Pagac took over, (and if they move away from the C-2/T-2), as long as they keep doing it, but to start saying that it was the Chiller who was holding him back is kindof a stretch if you ask me.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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