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  1. #11
    Garland Greene's Avatar
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "C" wrote:
    I'm surprised it's only $2M.
    I am a little bit to. I think this may be a reason why a retractable roof may be the way to go so that other venues can use teh stadium. And not just a one team use. But that is a whole different argument that we have gone over mant times

  2. #12
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    Since a new Vikings facility would carry the same type of venues as the metrodome (at best) I don't see how a new stadium is going to help anything as far as MSFC should be concerned about.
    It's not like the Twins and Gophers are going to be playing there.
    Simple formula.

    1) take a team that can't generate enough revenue in a building with no mortgage to keep it solvent
    2) Add a billion dollar mortgage
    3) Take the only additional revenue source for the new building(Luxury suites) and stick that money in the owners pocket where it won't be contributing to paying down the principal of the building.

    4) here is your WTF moment.

    It isn't that simple and you know it.

    1) The team cannot generate additional revenue because of the limits on seating.
    2) The state's share would not be $1 billion.
    More than likely the state and Vikings would split the cost.
    3) Actually luxury suites are one of the additional revenue sources.
    Club seats are another.
    And with a new facility, the MSFC would have a new lease with the Vikings.
    One that isn't 20 years old, and is proportional to the current costs.

    4) So you would rather keep an outdated facility that is losing money and would virtually guarantee the loss of the team over a new facility that would keep the team and be able to cover operating costs?
    Yup, that is a WTF moment all right.

    If all these stadiums were such money pits, we wouldn't have private businessmen building them in LA, or owners who are wealthy enough building their own, like Kraft and Jones.
    I wish Wilf had the money to build his own.
    But he doesn't.
    Haven't we had this conversation before?
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #13
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    Since a new Vikings facility would carry the same type of venues as the metrodome (at best) I don't see how a new stadium is going to help anything as far as MSFC should be concerned about.
    It's not like the Twins and Gophers are going to be playing there.
    I think the plan would be to pay the mortgage with a tax increase.
    FYI: The state wide sales tax goes up on July 1st to 6.875%. Currently it's 6.5%.

  4. #14
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    Since a new Vikings facility would carry the same type of venues as the metrodome (at best) I don't see how a new stadium is going to help anything as far as MSFC should be concerned about.
    It's not like the Twins and Gophers are going to be playing there.
    Simple formula.

    1) take a team that can't generate enough revenue in a building with no mortgage to keep it solvent
    2) Add a billion dollar mortgage
    3) Take the only additional revenue source for the new building(Luxury suites) and stick that money in the owners pocket where it won't be contributing to paying down the principal of the building.

    4) here is your WTF moment.

    It isn't that simple and you know it.

    1) The team cannot generate additional revenue because of the limits on seating.
    2) The state's share would not be $1 billion.
    More than likely the state and Vikings would split the cost.
    3) Actually luxury suites are one of the additional revenue sources.
    Club seats are another.
    And with a new facility, the MSFC would have a new lease with the Vikings.
    One that isn't 20 years old, and is proportional to the current costs.

    4) So you would rather keep an outdated facility that is losing money and would virtually guarantee the loss of the team over a new facility that would keep the team and be able to cover operating costs?
    Yup, that is a WTF moment all right.

    If all these stadiums were such money pits, we wouldn't have private businessmen building them in LA, or owners who are wealthy enough building their own, like Kraft and Jones.
    I wish Wilf had the money to build his own.
    But he doesn't.
    Haven't we had this conversation before?
    LMAO.

    1) This is a a small market, low rent district. We will NEVER generate the the revenue teams like N.Y, N.E, Dallas etc generate. The dog will always be chasing it's tail.

    2) Did I say anything about the state's share? I gave the total price. Who bears what share is irrelevant if the revenues aren't going to be enough to pay it.

    3) OK, so are you telling me wilf will dedicate that additional revenue to retire the debt? You are smarter than to try to make that statement. He wants that money for himself, which begs to wonder, where will the billion dollars come from if not from there? from the less expensive than the metrodome upper deck seats lol?

    4)Well, lets see.

    If you went to the bank and said to them "I have my house paid for but I can't afford to maintain it so I want to build another house that is 20x more expensive but has lower utility bills" They would go for it? Good one.

    You know my stance- Build what the revenue can afford to support without govt assistance. You also know if Wilf would finance it through TIF I would also be fine with it. The fact of the matter is what has been proposed has never been submitted with a plan to show how it would be paid for and to try to sell the stadium as revenue neutral or positive considering the revenue creating sectors are for the owners pocket is folly.

    As to the last part- So far no ground is dug in L.A. So far that is just hot air until it happens.

    As to the Cowboys- Are you honestly going to try to slide it by that jones is paying for it out of his pocket? I am not the other guy you have been debating and i don't claim to know quantum physics, but I do know Google ;D

    http://www.star-telegram.com/330/story/937327.html

    From the city

    As part of the deal to bring the NFL franchise to Arlington, the city provided $325 million. That money came from voter-approved bonds issued in 2005 that will be paid back from a portion of the sales, hotel occupancy and rental-car taxes collected in the city.

    From the county

    Tarrant County is also chipping in $25 million, mainly for road construction and parking lots that will surround the complex.
    As the budget for the stadium ballooned from $650 million to more than $1.1 billion, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones has had to come up with the money to pay for the cost overruns. But since Jones apparently does not have a half-billion dollars sitting in his bank account, he has also had to finance his portion of the project’s cost.
    And if you think the T.C area can generate anywhere near the PSL $ that Dallas, NY or N.E
    can you are going to be very disappointed.

    As to Kraft. You and I have been down this road before but if you want to:

    Red or Wilf could have privately (Or with the assistance of TIF or PILOT financing the Pats used) built the stadium with no roof for the same amount kraft spent. He did not build a 1 Billion dollar stadium because as a business man that would be unsustainable. I would be just fine with Wilf building his own open air, 400 million dollar stadium so I guess we have no argument.

    Yes, we have had this debate before and I still have the links from them. maybe we should just agree to debate the quantum physics though, because that is the only thing that will pay for a billion dollar stadium in this market.

  5. #15
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    Since a new Vikings facility would carry the same type of venues as the metrodome (at best) I don't see how a new stadium is going to help anything as far as MSFC should be concerned about.
    It's not like the Twins and Gophers are going to be playing there.
    Simple formula.

    1) take a team that can't generate enough revenue in a building with no mortgage to keep it solvent
    2) Add a billion dollar mortgage
    3) Take the only additional revenue source for the new building(Luxury suites) and stick that money in the owners pocket where it won't be contributing to paying down the principal of the building.

    4) here is your WTF moment.

    It isn't that simple and you know it.

    1) The team cannot generate additional revenue because of the limits on seating.
    2) The state's share would not be $1 billion.
    More than likely the state and Vikings would split the cost.
    3) Actually luxury suites are one of the additional revenue sources.
    Club seats are another.
    And with a new facility, the MSFC would have a new lease with the Vikings.
    One that isn't 20 years old, and is proportional to the current costs.


    4) So you would rather keep an outdated facility that is losing money and would virtually guarantee the loss of the team over a new facility that would keep the team and be able to cover operating costs?
    Yup, that is a WTF moment all right.

    If all these stadiums were such money pits, we wouldn't have private businessmen building them in LA, or owners who are wealthy enough building their own, like Kraft and Jones.
    I wish Wilf had the money to build his own.
    But he doesn't.
    Haven't we had this conversation before?
    Correct! Obviously the Vikings would be paying a higher cost for the lease.

    Plus there are other ways to generate money to pay for a stadium....



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    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #16
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    Since a new Vikings facility would carry the same type of venues as the metrodome (at best) I don't see how a new stadium is going to help anything as far as MSFC should be concerned about.
    It's not like the Twins and Gophers are going to be playing there.
    Simple formula.

    1) take a team that can't generate enough revenue in a building with no mortgage to keep it solvent
    2) Add a billion dollar mortgage
    3) Take the only additional revenue source for the new building(Luxury suites) and stick that money in the owners pocket where it won't be contributing to paying down the principal of the building.

    4) here is your WTF moment.

    It isn't that simple and you know it.

    1) The team cannot generate additional revenue because of the limits on seating.
    2) The state's share would not be $1 billion.
    More than likely the state and Vikings would split the cost.
    3) Actually luxury suites are one of the additional revenue sources.
    Club seats are another.
    And with a new facility, the MSFC would have a new lease with the Vikings.
    One that isn't 20 years old, and is proportional to the current costs.


    4) So you would rather keep an outdated facility that is losing money and would virtually guarantee the loss of the team over a new facility that would keep the team and be able to cover operating costs?
    Yup, that is a WTF moment all right.

    If all these stadiums were such money pits, we wouldn't have private businessmen building them in LA, or owners who are wealthy enough building their own, like Kraft and Jones.
    I wish Wilf had the money to build his own.
    But he doesn't.
    Haven't we had this conversation before?
    Correct! Obviously the Vikings would be paying a higher cost for the lease.

    Plus there are other ways to generate money to pay for a stadium....




    [img size=100]http://www.purplepride.org/media/kunena/attachments/legacy/images/casino.jpg[/img]

  7. #17
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    LMAO.

    1) This is a a small market, low rent district. We will NEVER generate the the revenue teams like N.Y, N.E, Dallas etc generate. The dog will always be chasing it's tail.

    2) Did I say anything about the state's share? I gave the total price. Who bears what share is irrelevant if the revenues aren't going to be enough to pay it.

    3) OK, so are you telling me wilf will dedicate that additional revenue to retire the debt? You are smarter than to try to make that statement. He wants that money for himself, which begs to wonder, where will the billion dollars come from if not from there? from the less expensive than the metrodome upper deck seats lol?

    4)Well, lets see.

    If you went to the bank and said to them "I have my house paid for but I can't afford to maintain it so I want to build another house that is 20x more expensive but has lower utility bills" They would go for it? Good one.

    You know my stance- Build what the revenue can afford to support without govt assistance. You also know if Wilf would finance it through TIF I would also be fine with it. The fact of the matter is what has been proposed has never been submitted with a plan to show how it would be paid for and to try to sell the stadium as revenue neutral or positive considering the revenue creating sectors are for the owners pocket is folly.

    As to the last part- So far no ground is dug in L.A. So far that is just hot air until it happens.

    As to the Cowboys- Are you honestly going to try to slide it by that jones is paying for it out of his pocket? I am not the other guy you have been debating and i don't claim to know quantum physics, but I do know Google ;D

    http://www.star-telegram.com/330/story/937327.html

    From the city

    As part of the deal to bring the NFL franchise to Arlington, the city provided $325 million. That money came from voter-approved bonds issued in 2005 that will be paid back from a portion of the sales, hotel occupancy and rental-car taxes collected in the city.

    From the county

    Tarrant County is also chipping in $25 million, mainly for road construction and parking lots that will surround the complex.
    As the budget for the stadium ballooned from $650 million to more than $1.1 billion, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones has had to come up with the money to pay for the cost overruns. But since Jones apparently does not have a half-billion dollars sitting in his bank account, he has also had to finance his portion of the project’s cost.
    And if you think the T.C area can generate anywhere near the PSL $ that Dallas, NY or N.E
    can you are going to be very disappointed.

    As to Kraft. You and I have been down this road before but if you want to:

    Red or Wilf could have privately (Or with the assistance of TIF or PILOT financing the Pats used) built the stadium with no roof for the same amount kraft spent. He did not build a 1 Billion dollar stadium because as a business man that would be unsustainable. I would be just fine with Wilf building his own open air, 400 million dollar stadium so I guess we have no argument.

    Yes, we have had this debate before and I still have the links from them. maybe we should just agree to debate the quantum physics though, because that is the only thing that will pay for a billion dollar stadium in this market.
    meh, I have already used my debating energy for the month today.
    You actually make sense in some your arguments.
    I disagree with some of them, but I cannot deny their basis.
    There is no way I could take you on today. ;D

    Besides this should be moot anyway.
    Singer nailed it.
    Between the Viking's contribution and a lottery system, any remaining state share should be minimum, and could easily be paid for with a metro wide
    sales, hotel occupancy and rental-car taxes like in Dallas.
    Win-win for everyone.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #18
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    Yes, off topic. But definately the quote for today.

    I am not the other guy you have been debating and i don't claim to know quantum physics, but I do know Google

    +1
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  9. #19
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Dome expects to lose $2M a year when Twins, U leave

    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    Yes, off topic. But definately the quote for today.

    I am not the other guy you have been debating and i don't claim to know quantum physics, but I do know Google

    +1
    lol.
    Yeah, I have to give UffDa props on that one.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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