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  1. #41
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096411
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096384
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096381
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096377
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096370

    Again, I hope the staff has Guion ready to go in that role.
    Or, as I've said before, that role in our defense is dead. No more 350lb guy to clog up the middle. Smaller, quicker guys to get after the quarterback.
    Thats why the Lions just added another one to their DL.
    Last I checked the Lions DL isn't the Vikings DL, but I could be wrong on that. THey ahve their scheme, we have ours. I don't think we'll be replacing Pat. In fact, you seem to be one of the few who believe that. (an oddly common trend that is developing actually)

    Smaller quicker gets your ass run over all the time. Watch, it started to slide (run stopping) 2 years ago. It will continue to slide this year as well if they don't beef up the middle.
    If that's the cost of stopping the pass, I'll take it.

    Something to think about.....When you get 4 or 5 yards a pop on the run, you don't have to pass my friend. Atleast until you've gashed the defense so much on the ground they are cheating up to stop it (with their backend) and then you gash them with the play action fake.
    Hmm... we gave up 3.9 yards per carry last year. So I guess teams didn't have to pass on us?

    Does Madden have that concept in it? :dry:
    Your right, the Lions Dline isn't ours. To bad thats all you got out of that.

    What was the yards per carry 4 years ago? Avg out the increase to were it is now and add that avg to 3.9 and see what happens.
    Ok.

    (look at the passing stats, the average is inaccurate, does not reflect yards/attemps or yards/completions, not sure what it's counting.
    2006: Rushing 2.8ypc(#1 rush D, #32 pass D)
    2007: Rushing 3.1ypc(#1 rush D, #32 pass D)
    2008: Rushing 3.3ypc(#1 rush D, #18 pass D)
    2009: Rushing 3.9ypc (#2 rush D, #19 pass D
    2010: Rushing 3.9ypc (#9 rush D, #10 pass D)

    What I see, is a small sacrafice in rush D is giving a huge boost to pass D. Although our pass D is inconsistent at best now, it really was truly awful in 06 and 07
    Wanna see a common thread you will see as odd, look at Leslies comments about that very same subject. Funny how you will see I made my assumption based off of those comments.
    Care to share the exact comments? I'm not going looking for whatever you think you saw.

    In the end, this is exactly how all these discussions end, you start to see the light and then, when you realize the day is dawning you start with crap like this.
    Yep, I've seen the light. You're crazy. Oh, by light you mean your viewpoint? Well, no. I don't see the 'light'. Pat will not be replaced, the Tampa 2 doesn't call for a pat, we didn't draft a pat. I don't anticipate us signing a Pat in FA. There won't be another Pat.

  2. #42
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096412
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1096408
    Once you guys get this all figured out, I think you'll find that nobody really uses a true Tampa 2 or cover 2 approach anymore. Like everything in the NFL, it has evolved as offenses learn how to exploit it.
    I hear ya my friend, but it all gets back to understanding the basics. Until my good friend bleed understands were we came from, he can't understand were we are going to.

    Our biggest issue in trying to stay true to the Tampa 2 is we haven't had a LB with the ability to cover the deep middle zone effectively, putting extra burden on the back seven to compensate. The only linebacker on the Vikings staff that has the ability to cover the middle zone is Greenway. Without an Uhrlacher's or Derrick Brooks' type athlete playing this position, it has too big of a weakness IMO.
    Again, I agree to a point. It is an issue, but with the decline of our DL, the lack of pressure from the front 4 makes that even worse.
    Lack of pressure sure doesn't help, Mr. A makes a strong point as to the degree of expectation one should have for the D-line and that blitzing will always be part of the equation. If the line is not doing an "adequate" job, it is hard to overcome with the back 7, no argument from me there.

    No doubt we will have a few extra wrinkles in how we run our defense next year vs. last year. NFL trends, new coaching philosophies and players strengths will all play into it as it should.
    You checked out the thing they are calling the "Zone/Press".

    Steelers have been doing it for the last 2 years. I kindof think that might be were Pagac might be trying to take us, especially if he gets Griff back.

    That guy could get physical with the teams best WR and shut down some pretty good ones before he blew his knee the first time.
    If Cook can stay healthy, I think his strength is playing physical and up close. His heighth and build plays well for this style IMO.

  3. #43
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1096408
    Once you guys get this all figured out, I think you'll find that nobody really uses a true Tampa 2 or cover 2 approach anymore. Like everything in the NFL, it has evolved as offenses learn how to exploit it.

    Our biggest issue in trying to stay true to the Tampa 2 is we haven't had a LB with the ability to cover the deep middle zone effectively, putting extra burden on the back seven to compensate. The only linebacker on the Vikings staff that has the ability to cover the middle zone is Greenway. Without an Uhrlacher's or Derrick Brooks' type athlete playing this position, it has too big of a weakness IMO.

    No doubt we will have a few extra wrinkles in how we run our defense next year vs. last year. NFL trends, new coaching philosophies and players strengths will all play into it as it should.
    Derrick Brooks was an outside linebacker.

    And I think our problems are at safety. As important as it is for a MLB to be able to drop, safeties are still expected to be able cover deep halves, and we don't have guys who can do that.

    I think Abdullah is capable, and should get better as he continues to play.

    Madieu Williams sucks at everything. He drops every ball he gets his hands on, blows coverage, takes bad angles when tackling, and when he does get to the guy he frequently fails to tackle him. There might not be a safety in the NFL that's paid more to do less.

    Jamarca Sanford is a thumper.

    Tyrell Johnson is a great athlete, but can't seem to get it together.

    Eric Frampton is a special teams guy, emergency safety.


    We need health at corner and talent at safety.

  4. #44
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1096408
    Once you guys get this all figured out, I think you'll find that nobody really uses a true Tampa 2 or cover 2 approach anymore. Like everything in the NFL, it has evolved as offenses learn how to exploit it.

    Our biggest issue in trying to stay true to the Tampa 2 is we haven't had a LB with the ability to cover the deep middle zone effectively, putting extra burden on the back seven to compensate. The only linebacker on the Vikings staff that has the ability to cover the middle zone is Greenway. Without an Uhrlacher's or Derrick Brooks' type athlete playing this position, it has too big of a weakness IMO.

    No doubt we will have a few extra wrinkles in how we run our defense next year vs. last year. NFL trends, new coaching philosophies and players strengths will all play into it as it should.

  5. #45
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1096421
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1096408
    Once you guys get this all figured out, I think you'll find that nobody really uses a true Tampa 2 or cover 2 approach anymore. Like everything in the NFL, it has evolved as offenses learn how to exploit it.

    Our biggest issue in trying to stay true to the Tampa 2 is we haven't had a LB with the ability to cover the deep middle zone effectively, putting extra burden on the back seven to compensate. The only linebacker on the Vikings staff that has the ability to cover the middle zone is Greenway. Without an Uhrlacher's or Derrick Brooks' type athlete playing this position, it has too big of a weakness IMO.

    No doubt we will have a few extra wrinkles in how we run our defense next year vs. last year. NFL trends, new coaching philosophies and players strengths will all play into it as it should.
    Derrick Brooks was an outside linebacker.

    And I think our problems are at safety. As important as it is for a MLB to be able to drop, safeties are still expected to be able cover deep halves, and we don't have guys who can do that.

    I think Abdullah is capable, and should get better as he continues to play.

    Madieu Williams sucks at everything. He drops every ball he gets his hands on, blows coverage, takes bad angles when tackling, and when he does get to the guy he frequently fails to tackle him. There might not be a safety in the NFL that's paid more to do less.

    Jamarca Sanford is a thumper.

    Tyrell Johnson is a great athlete, but can't seem to get it together.

    Eric Frampton is a special teams guy, emergency safety.


    We need health at corner and talent at safety.
    No argument from me on the level of safety play we have had to experience over the last several years. Our current cast is a bunch of C players.

    Bigger problem is when we have no true strength in our back 7 coverage skills, everyone's jobs get harder.

  6. #46
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Iw ould like to point out that we are hardly in a 4-3 defense. Teams routinely run multiple WRs on us.

    Anyone like to draw up the Tampa 2 in Nickle coverage. Here is a hint, it's not the same as in the 4-3.

  7. #47
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096412
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1096408
    Once you guys get this all figured out, I think you'll find that nobody really uses a true Tampa 2 or cover 2 approach anymore. Like everything in the NFL, it has evolved as offenses learn how to exploit it.
    I hear ya my friend, but it all gets back to understanding the basics. Until my good friend bleed understands were we came from, he can't understand were we are going to.
    Ah yes, my lack of understanding is surely the issue.

    My inability to understand how your brain works at times might certainly cause some disagreements here. My inability to go along with your bullshit, no questions asked probably will draw some irate replies from you.

    but my ability to understand how a cover 2, or Tampa 2 scheme works, and that you don't run the same damn play every play is not the issue here.

    I understand perfectly well how one plays the Tampa-2. Guess what, this might come as a shocker, through HIgh school, we played a bastardized version of the tampa-2. I played free safety. I never got beat deep, and I got picked to the city all-star team. Got a number of interceptions, and pass breakups, while we went to three straight city championship games. Now granted, it's not the same as playing pro ball, obviously, but the concept of zone defense, Cover 2 and how DB's are supposed to play is not lost on me. Believe me, I know that following a guy for 10 seconds is hard as hell. I also know that at times, you can't rely on others to get the job done. If your DL can't pressure the QB, it's up to someone else to step up their game and make up for it. There's more than one way to win a football game. Sticking in the base formation and base zone assignments is a great way to not win.

    You seem unable to understand that schemes change, and not all schemes are the same. You consistently harp on me about your WCO bullshit, about how a player who has four months of practice with the Vikings, and worked with a guy who worked with a guy who's uncle's roommates best friend knew Bill Walsh is qualified to help Ponder run this offense, but you can't understand that you DO use man coverage in the Tampa-2 Scheme. You DO have four pass rushing lineen in the Tampa-2 scheme. You ARE expected to break up passes and cover your man rather than just watch the ball into his stomach then try and hit him. The #1 focus of the Tampa-2 is to cause turnovers. If you find that the base cover 2 used is getting picked apart, you DO make adjustments, whether switching to a different zone formation, switching to man, a man-zone mix, blitz him, press, disguise yoru fronts, whatever.

    Our biggest issue in trying to stay true to the Tampa 2 is we haven't had a LB with the ability to cover the deep middle zone effectively, putting extra burden on the back seven to compensate. The only linebacker on the Vikings staff that has the ability to cover the middle zone is Greenway. Without an Uhrlacher's or Derrick Brooks' type athlete playing this position, it has too big of a weakness IMO.
    Again, I agree to a point. It is an issue, but with the decline of our DL, the lack of pressure from the front 4 makes that even worse.
    Ah, so the DL's lack of pressure causes our players to not challenge receivers for the LOS, causing them to have a free release inside, and hit for a quick play?

    Or a free release on a seam pass, boom 10 yards even though our DL had a fantastic jump off the ball?

    A huge element of the Tampa-2, is jamming receivers at the line. When you play a zone defense, if you give your guy a free release, all he needs to do is turn into the hole between you and the next zone over and it's an easy completion. You need to jam, need to disrupt timing, make the QB hold onto the ball that extra second or make his next read in the progression. That's how you get sacks and pressures. That's how you force interceptions.

    If you look at the defensive stats over the past five years, we seem to be constantly in the middle for average yards per attempt. However, we let up a high percentage of passes, and a crapton of yards. Why? Teams are hitting the short passes on us. We don't jam receivers, we give them free releases, and in turn, the quick slants, in, hook, and seams are there. We do nothing to stop them. I actually see an improvement when we play man coverage. Zone is something that takes some experience and time to get right, our depth at DB is very young.

    No doubt we will have a few extra wrinkles in how we run our defense next year vs. last year. NFL trends, new coaching philosophies and players strengths will all play into it as it should.
    You checked out the thing they are calling the "Zone/Press".

    Steelers have been doing it for the last 2 years. I kindof think that might be were Pagac might be trying to take us, especially if he gets Griff back.
    I can only hope so, as mentioned before the press is a good way to force the QB to hold onto the ball that extra second. The Packers have been doing an excellent job at that, mind you they don't run the T2, but they cause the QB to re-think and move on through his progression, getting alot of sacks, alot of picks and breakups.

  8. #48
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    Re: The Difference Between Traditional Zone and the T2

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096440
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096412
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1096408
    Once you guys get this all figured out, I think you'll find that nobody really uses a true Tampa 2 or cover 2 approach anymore. Like everything in the NFL, it has evolved as offenses learn how to exploit it.
    I hear ya my friend, but it all gets back to understanding the basics. Until my good friend bleed understands were we came from, he can't understand were we are going to.
    Ah yes, my lack of understanding is surely the issue.

    My inability to understand how your brain works at times might certainly cause some disagreements here. My inability to go along with your bullshit, no questions asked probably will draw some irate replies from you.

    but my ability to understand how a cover 2, or Tampa 2 scheme works, and that you don't run the same damn play every play is not the issue here.

    I understand perfectly well how one plays the Tampa-2. Guess what, this might come as a shocker, through HIgh school, we played a bastardized version of the tampa-2. I played free safety. I never got beat deep, and I got picked to the city all-star team. Got a number of interceptions, and pass breakups, while we went to three straight city championship games. Now granted, it's not the same as playing pro ball, obviously, but the concept of zone defense, Cover 2 and how DB's are supposed to play is not lost on me. Believe me, I know that following a guy for 10 seconds is hard as hell. I also know that at times, you can't rely on others to get the job done. If your DL can't pressure the QB, it's up to someone else to step up their game and make up for it. There's more than one way to win a football game. Sticking in the base formation and base zone assignments is a great way to not win.

    You seem unable to understand that schemes change, and not all schemes are the same. You consistently harp on me about your WCO bullshit, about how a player who has four months of practice with the Vikings, and worked with a guy who worked with a guy who's uncle's roommates best friend knew Bill Walsh is qualified to help Ponder run this offense, but you can't understand that you DO use man coverage in the Tampa-2 Scheme. You DO have four pass rushing lineen in the Tampa-2 scheme. You ARE expected to break up passes and cover your man rather than just watch the ball into his stomach then try and hit him. The #1 focus of the Tampa-2 is to cause turnovers. If you find that the base cover 2 used is getting picked apart, you DO make adjustments, whether switching to a different zone formation, switching to man, a man-zone mix, blitz him, press, disguise yoru fronts, whatever.

    Our biggest issue in trying to stay true to the Tampa 2 is we haven't had a LB with the ability to cover the deep middle zone effectively, putting extra burden on the back seven to compensate. The only linebacker on the Vikings staff that has the ability to cover the middle zone is Greenway. Without an Uhrlacher's or Derrick Brooks' type athlete playing this position, it has too big of a weakness IMO.
    Again, I agree to a point. It is an issue, but with the decline of our DL, the lack of pressure from the front 4 makes that even worse.
    Ah, so the DL's lack of pressure causes our players to not challenge receivers for the LOS, causing them to have a free release inside, and hit for a quick play?

    Or a free release on a seam pass, boom 10 yards even though our DL had a fantastic jump off the ball?

    A huge element of the Tampa-2, is jamming receivers at the line. When you play a zone defense, if you give your guy a free release, all he needs to do is turn into the hole between you and the next zone over and it's an easy completion. You need to jam, need to disrupt timing, make the QB hold onto the ball that extra second or make his next read in the progression. That's how you get sacks and pressures. That's how you force interceptions.

    If you look at the defensive stats over the past five years, we seem to be constantly in the middle for average yards per attempt. However, we let up a high percentage of passes, and a crapton of yards. Why? Teams are hitting the short passes on us. We don't jam receivers, we give them free releases, and in turn, the quick slants, in, hook, and seams are there. We do nothing to stop them. I actually see an improvement when we play man coverage. Zone is something that takes some experience and time to get right, our depth at DB is very young.

    No doubt we will have a few extra wrinkles in how we run our defense next year vs. last year. NFL trends, new coaching philosophies and players strengths will all play into it as it should.
    You checked out the thing they are calling the "Zone/Press".

    Steelers have been doing it for the last 2 years. I kindof think that might be were Pagac might be trying to take us, especially if he gets Griff back.
    I can only hope so, as mentioned before the press is a good way to force the QB to hold onto the ball that extra second. The Packers have been doing an excellent job at that, mind you they don't run the T2, but they cause the QB to re-think and move on through his progression, getting alot of sacks, alot of picks and breakups.
    The purpose for playing the corners deep off the line (7-10 yards), I think does fall mostly into the realm of defensive scheme/philosophy for the cover2/tampa2 defenses. The Tampa 2 defense, at least the Dungy version, I thought had the corners playing fairly deep most of the time. Idea of playing deeper off the line was it gave the cornerback more time to read and react. since his responsibility was far more than just the receiver he was lined up against the extra space helped him with run defense, re-directing the receivers, or making a move into the passing lane (assuming the safety is helping him over the top). Like everything, it requires the right athlete playing the position and in theory was geared more to a "bend but don't break" philosophy, which I thought was the cornerstone to both the cover2 and tampa2 defenses. Problem that I see mainly with these philosophies is it demands to much on individual athleticism (and required for each player) and there are only so many ideal Tampa 2 players to go around and we aren't the only team looking for them. It's a great philosophy if you have great athletes, I would not say that our back seven are great athletes.

    When Griffin was getting crucified a few years' back, I tried to pay more attention to what he was doing right or wrong. To me it looked like he was trying to accommodate for late safety help in effect increasing the size of his zone and trying to cover multiple guys in his zone largely due to the LB on his side being brought in to help apply pressure. he still did an adequate job of limiting yardage, but had a hard time making a break on the ball without putting a lot of risk into the play. Had Ced been jamming the receiver at the line, his zone would have had a lot of unprotected space opening up the potential for bigger plays. Rather than seeing poor safety play or inadequate DL pressure as the primary problem, the blame gets placed where the ball ends up.

    I do not have faith that we can pull off a classic tampa2 defense on a regular basis with our current personnel and the way today's offenses are attacking it with more spread formations. Time for some new scheme names to start appearing so we can label it as such and start arguing (discussing) the merits of the next approach.

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