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  1. #41
    marstc09's Avatar
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    Re: DAO (Dumb Ass Offense)

    Marrdro wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Finding Talent. = Spielman and his scouts
    Signing Talent. = Spielman and Bryzcheapski.
    Coaching Talent. = Chiller and his coaching staff.
    Paying the Man. = Wilf Ownership group.
    In bold is the one group that is not living up to it's billing.

    The talent has been evaluated. The talent that the staff say they need has been brought in and the owner has opened up his wallet. The only think lacking is the coaching.
    Hard to argue that point, especially when one looks at the "Win/Loss" record this year but if one were to look at the bigger picture, one would have a good bit of evidence to say that the Coaching Staff has done a good job since it has been here.

    A. Team win/loss record got better each year.
    b. Won back to back Div Titles.
    c. Backups seem to be ready to come in when starter gets hurt with little/no drop off.
    d. Damn near made it to the SB last year.
    e. Players seem to want to come here to play especially the ones who want to win a SB in thier latter years.
    f. None of the players on the roster have anything bad to say about the staff.
    g. Very few of the players who have been let loose have anything bad to say about the staff.

    Truth of the matter is, the only hack on the staff comes from the local sports hacks and the fans that buy into thier drivel if you ask me.
    and the talent got better every year.

  2. #42
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: DAO (Dumb Ass Offense)

    Marrdro wrote:



    Hard to argue that point, especially when one looks at the "Win/Loss" record this year but if one were to look at the bigger picture, one would have a good bit of evidence to say that the Coaching Staff has done a good job since it has been here.

    A. Team win/loss record got better each year.
    Oh contrair mon frair, I always look at the big picture and BTW, notice that I bolded the fact that you contradicted your first sentence with your first defense of the coach lol.





    b. Won back to back Div Titles.
    Should have won the SB considering the weakness in the division, conference and league in general. They don't put you in Canton for division championships.

    c. Backups seem to be ready to come in when starter gets hurt with little/no drop off.
    Yeah I guess. BTW- How is that Lito Sheppard guy doing as a replacement? From what I see he could be a starter anywhere hmy: We also saw no dropoff going from Chester Taylor to the current crop of RB's so I guess I see your point.

    d. Damn near made it to the SB last year.

    Damn near works well if you are farting but not so good if your team was actually better than the team you lost to and they won the SB. In that case your coaches just plain suck.


    e. Players seem to want to come here to play especially the ones who want to win a SB in thier latter years.
    Yeah, when the owner throws enough cash at them they sometimes sign. Do you have any links from the players saying they made the choice because they hold Childress and his coaching prowess in high regard? I'll let you get back to ma when I stop this hysterical laughing spell. :woohoo:

    f. None of the players on the roster have anything bad to say about the staff.
    Lest they get cut on xmas eve.

    I would venture to guess if you asked them in private off the record you might be surprised. (But then again after a few minutes of talking to you they would probably see the light and change their opinions. :laugh:



    g. Very few of the players who have been let loose have anything bad to say about the staff.
    Have you specifically asked them anything to that extent?


    Truth of the matter is, the only hack on the staff comes from the local sports hacks and the fans that buy into thier drivel if you ask me.
    Funny because I don't buy into anything based on what someone tells me so I guess your point is refuted at least to that extent.

  3. #43
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: DAO (Dumb Ass Offense)

    Good post.

    Truth is, with the talent Childress has had to work with....he should have done far, far better.

    I think he's a very insecure little man and torn between wanting Favre on his team so he can get a winning record and being afraid that he will be exposed as an incompetent dub by Favre's clear superiority in football knowledge.

    I think he's made a decision. Eliminate the threat. He's trying to get Favre killed by the pass rush.
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  4. #44
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    Re: DAO (Dumb Ass Offense)

    The Vikings need to have their receivers do the fundamentals. The Vikings run sloppy routes, lazy routes, do not look to see if the QB is in trouble, make bad reads, break off routes short, and do not come back to the ball on comeback routes.

    If Moss, Berrian, and Harvin cannot get free, then something is not well in Norseland. Either the playbook and gameplan are not well designed, or the receivers are not producing up to expectations. I believe it is both.

    In this offense, the number one priority should be to protect the quarterback. Favre is a master given time, but he is a gunslinger under pressure. The Vikings need to keep the tight end and back in longer and more often to provide blocking.

    Childress and Bevell have plays designed on a drawing board that can be exploited on the field. Having an extra receiver out is all good and well if the quarterback is not on his ass, but far too often the latter is the case. Having Tahi or Young run a route instead of block is foolery. It disregards the game situation, and it does not take the personnel into account.

    Someone has to ask, when going over the game film, "What do you see?" The Vikings need to scout themselves, and coach themselves, much better, because they are doing a pretty poor job of it at this time.

  5. #45
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    Re: DAO (Dumb Ass Offense)

    Marrdro wrote:
    Finally, someone to talk routes with. I've been hinting all week.
    I will talk X's and O's. :woohoo:

    FYI, my route tree goes like this....

    Quick Out - 1
    Slant – 2
    Deep Out – 3
    Drag/In – 4
    Flag – 5
    Curl – 6
    Post Corner - 7
    Post – 8
    Fly – 9

    1, 2 and 4 are typically run from the line of scrimmage out to 10 yards
    3, 5, and 6 are typically run from 10 to 15 yards
    7, 8 and 9 are typically run deeper than 15 yards
    That is the typical passing tree. 9 is the fly/go/streak and then odd man out up the tree. My point was that I had not seen Moss doing much more than 9 routes, and I see you basically agree.

    Minniman wrote:
    Perhaps we have a different passing tree, but I did not see that. I saw a lot of Moss running straight down the field on 9 routes.

    It was no wonder that Cromartie could stay with Moss when there were not quick cuts and double moves to worry about. Moss-fly, Moss-fly, Moss-fly, play after play will wear Moss down and make him much easier to defend than if he had more routes to choose from.
    You are correct, the predominance of the routes Randy ran were 9 routes, and if memory serves at least one 8 route but there were several of the shorter nature during the game.
    I should add that it is not just Moss running the fly/streak. Too many deep plays rely on sideline fly routes. This has limited Berrian as well.

    Here is a complete list of the routes he was targeted on.
    1st and 10 at 50 (Shotgun) B.Favre pass incomplete deep left to R.Moss (A.Cromartie).
    3rd and 8 at NYJ 48 (Shotgun) B.Favre pass incomplete deep right to R.Moss (B.Pool) [C.Pace].

    2nd and 5 at MIN 36 B.Favre pass short left to R.Moss to MIN 43 for 7 yards (J.Leonhard).

    2nd and 10 at MIN 39 B.Favre pass incomplete deep left to R.Moss (A.Cromartie).
    3rd and 15 at MIN 34 (Shotgun) B.Favre pass short right to R.Moss to 50 for 16 yards (A.Cromartie).
    2nd and 12 at MIN 48 B.Favre pass incomplete short left to R.Moss (A.Cromartie).
    3rd and 17 at NYJ 37 (Shotgun) B.Favre pass deep right to R.Moss for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

    2nd and 8 at NYJ 23 B.Favre pass incomplete deep left to R.Moss. PENALTY on MIN-R.Moss, Offensive Pass Interference, 11 yards, enforced at NYJ 23 - No Play.
    1st and 10 at MIN 22 B.Favre pass incomplete deep left to R.Moss.
    1st and 10 at MIN 16 (Shotgun) B.Favre pass incomplete deep right to R.Moss.
    3rd and 10 at MIN 23 (Shotgun) B.Favre pass deep right to R.Moss ran ob at MIN 44 for 21 yards.
    As you can see, he wasn't exclusively running 9 routes and as he gets more familiar with the plays and the line calls, we will see him targeted more and more on the routes I mentioned.
    I agree that he was not exclusively running the fly, but even the short routes were mostly just truncated fly routes. Cromartie basically only had to defend the Y axis against Moss. There was very little cross-field X axis to defend.

    The Vikings dis do more short routes with Moss against the Packers, but I would have liked to see more plays designed to get Moss into single coverage or have either Harvin or another receiver route into the area cleared by Moss.

    This offense is so simple in the passing routes that I sometimes think the offensive coaches use a template that has a simple 9 route tree and that's all. Ladder, chair, comebacks, clearing, and other routes are not often seen. Against the Jets, the corner route was run by the fullback, Tahi, and that's about it.

    The Vikings consistently throw two and five yard routes on early downs, and they still do not use either the middle of the field or the mid-depth routes very well. That is a lot of field being wasted, and defenders' zones can collapse down if the threat is not real.
    I hear ya. What mystified me was the lack of shorter routes early on in the game.
    The Vikings needed to slant, angle, screen, and skinny post against the blitz, but Childress does not have that as built into his West Coast offense as Bill Walsh did.

    Even on third and whatever, the Vikings throw short of the first down or short of the goal line, while most other offenses know where the sticks are and find them.
    Although I tend to agree with you, the routes that are run are in alot of instances, decided at the line (Pre-snap) based on what the defense shows and if they have the correct package on the field, they will run routes past the sticks. If the are in a two TE set (12, 22, etc) its kindof hard to get a WR short, intermediate and Long so its hard to say that they only run to the sticks.
    That is a good point, but the Vikings need to push past the sticks. They cannot say, "Oh, a defender is there, so I will run this short." The option route should take care of this on it own by the placement of the defender(s).

    I am certain you understand how option routes work, but I will just give some basic examples. If the defender is deep and to the outside, the option is likely the slant, post, or in depending on the play. If the defender is inside or short, the option is often an out or flag. If the defender comes up, the receiver can slide past him on a deep route. Again, this depends on the play called.

    In neither case is the option run up and sit on your butt two yards from the sticks. This can be an option against double coverage or on a deep seam, but how often are we actually seeing that? Even then, the receiver should push deeper and comeback to the ball or push up the seam to catch the ball in stride depending on the safety depth.

    On a non option route, the receiver should have done glide drills to know how to get position on the defender. In that case as well, the receiver keeps moving on his route.

    It looks to me that the Vikings offense tries to find zone seams and plants the receiver there. That often eliminates YAC and allows defenders to react on the ball with often negative consequences for the Vikings.

    John Madden stated that he liked twelve yard passes much more than eight, nine, or even ten yard passes, because in most cases, a twelve yard pass will be a first down - even if the receiver comes back to the ball.
    Walsh pretty much said the same thing, only he said he wanted them to catch it in stride and out of traffic. If that could only happen in the 5 yard range then he wanted the QB and the Receiver to go 5 yards.
    I agree with Walsh, and I do not see that with the Vikings offense. One should also note that, in these cases, Walsh is often replacing the run with a short pass. They are interchangeable. When one looks at the run/pass ration in his West Coast, one should look at run/short pass and mid pass/long pass as the two criteria. Just looking at the run to pass is not good enough.

    Hitting the receiver in space and in stride is important. A seven yard pass in space and in stride to get a ten yard gain is a higher percentage play than hitting a receiver for eight yards that is just standing on a spot with defenders waiting on the ball.

    While we are on that, the Vikings receivers do a poor job of coming back to the ball, and that allows interceptions. If the defender can break on the ball, the receiver, who knows the play ahead of time, should be able to as well. This is basic football; if the receiver gets the defender in an over position, then the receiver just has to take a couple steps toward the ball to keep the defender from jumping the pass. The Vikings receivers often just stand there waiting for the ball.
    Not a fan of the comeback (6 route), especially in the WCO. Again, back to my comment on what Coach Walsh said. Usually a comeback route is indicative of 2 things...

    1. The protection broke down and the WR's have to come back and help. That also means they were directed to run something other than the 6 route and had to break that route off and come back, again, after they figure out the QB is in trouble

    2. You have a cloud coverage (2 CB's 1 S over the top) with a CB who bails deep early and often. That kindof makes it hard for the WR to get deep when you need to so you start running 6 routes to take advantage of him bailing early.

    One is planned (2.) one isn't planned (1.) and does lead to the WR's probably not coming back like you want them to.
    I generally would rather run other routes than the comeback (which goes out) or hook (which come in) because the receiver does not often get as good YAC on these routes for obvious reasons.

    I do not mind the comeback if it is used for a purpose and run correctly. With Cromartie playing Moss in man, I would have had Moss push down-field on a comeback until Cromartie had to gauge is steps. Then I would have used a double move or a slow lure to beat him deep.

    Childress has been suspect as a head coach/offensive gameplanner since his first game against the Redskins way back. I see little change except when pressured to make changes. He also gets too cute for his own good at times, and that backfires more times than not.

    The Vikings need to start more games with quick slant, skinny post, deep post, and double move go routes to keep the linebackers and safeties on their heals and in their zones rather than working the gaps.
    Agree with the second para. Its what the offense is predicated on.

    Problem is, we really haven't had that guy who can go over the middle 3, 5, and 8 routes to take that LB and/or the S with him along with the CB.
    I disagree with that premise. Any receiver worth suiting up in the NFL should be able to run those routes. Some receivers run them better than others, but all should be able to run them.

    Strangely, Troy Williamson ran those routes quite well. It is too bad he could not catch well enough to keep his jersey in the NFL.

  6. #46
    BadlandsVikings's Avatar
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    Re: DAO (Dumb Ass Offense)

    The offense has gone from dumb to retarded

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