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  1. #51
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
    i_bleed_purple is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    V4L wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    PackSux! wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    My only discussion point with you was mostly related to how fans count drops. I'm not one of those "it hit him in the hands he should have caught it" kindof guys. I know there are alot of variables that go into a dropped ball and alot fo them aren't the recievers fault.

    Again, if you have a problem with how many they classified as drops, go to them and ask for the data. As they said on thier page, the stand by thier info.
    Drops, BTW, are not an official NFL statistic for this exact reason. That's why I tend to discount those stats.

    As to Berrian - his hammy clearly was hurting during a large part of the season. Sid Rice is now the deep threat. Berrian is not need to "stretch the field". If there's money to be saved that could be spent elsewhere, I'm all for letting him go.
    Trade him for Moss!

    That will solve everything.
    Dear God, no. Moss = Sid Rice. They are the same type of player. What the Vikings need is a possession guy like Welker who can play in the slot or on the outside.

    =Z=
    Jordan Shipley

    Percy Harvin
    he seems to drop too many to play the Welker role right now. I think with a couple years under him he could become a very reliable slot guy, but right now he seems best in the intermediate route. As he gets older and learns the game more, he could be a welker, or steve smith kind of guy.
    Tied at 46th with 4 dropped passes.



    Pro Football Focus WR stats
    once again, I'm not a fan of those drop stats, I doubt their accuracy.

    however, I'm not saying he has a drop problem, but his hand's aren't great. I expect they'll get better as he gets used to the pro game, he might get there, but he's not there yet, just my opinion.

  2. #52
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    The curious case of Bernard Berrian
    LOL, no one wants to hear why I think his yards per AVG dropped, now do they....... :laugh:
    I think his regression was quite obvious to a lot of people. His speed was different as well as his difficulty in catchng the football. They don't mention that in this article. He had a few drops.

    Berrian has proven he could be productive. This wasn't a good year for him but it wasn't bad either. Just not what we expected of him.

    Hopefully he comes back 100% and doesn't re-injure his hammy again. Seems to be his forte as it happened in 2008 too.
    Hmmmm, tied for 63rd with 3 dropped passes. That doesn't seem like to many to me.

    Pro Football Focus Stats (Dropped Passes)
    I question that statistic my friend. Maybe that is what this site credited him for but memory serves me a little differently. Hell, I think he dropped 3 in one game for goodness sake.
    Again, I go with the guys who have access to the tapes, know what was going on (throw to hard, throw behind the reciever, reciever looking for the ball someplace else) vs a fan who probably only got to see the play from the instant the ball got within the recievers bubble.

    Just a question, did you read the caveats they have on this page? If you think its more, give them a quick shout, they will give you the analysis of the data.
    I can understand your view point. Not questioning that. I do question the actual stat though. We both watched the games. I know he had more than 3 drops. I remember calling him out a few times because of it (more than 3 times throughout the season). Like I said I remember one game where he had like 3 drops.

    I know you want to blame a lot on Favre. That is what it is and like everyone else I am not going to worry about that anymore. However, a drop is a drop. Not all the passes were perfectly placed but most of what was thrown this year was catchable. BB had his share as did Harvin.

    I still like BB. He can be extremely productive. He is a definite threat when healthy. Right now I think the Vikes are pretty set with WRs however it doesn't mean I would be upset if they upgraded. BB has a history of injuries.
    We can have a logical discussion about placement of the ball, defenders hanging onto recievers etc etc without laying blame on the Noodle my friend (which I didn't by the way).

    My only discussion point with you was mostly related to how fans count drops. I'm not one of those "it hit him in the hands he should have caught it" kindof guys. I know there are alot of variables that go into a dropped ball and alot fo them aren't the recievers fault.

    Again, if you have a problem with how many they classified as drops, go to them and ask for the data. As they said on thier page, the stand by thier info.
    I know you didn't directly blame Favre (or the noodle :laugh: ) but because of the history I took it that way when you started talking about things not always being the WR fault. I apologize if that isn't where you were going with that.

    I do agree it isn't always the WR fault. Some catches are much tougher than others. I also know what I saw this year and as much as I like Berrian I also know he dropped more than 3 passes. Am I going to waste my time writing people to ask them to change their statistics? Nope. I question that statistic because I know what I watched. I don't know what variables they put into a statistic when deaming if it is dropped or not. Honestly I really don't care. What I do care about is what I saw and I know I saw him drop or not catch balls that he should have caught this year. I also know there was more than 3 times. It is what it is. If the statistic you post says 3 then I can't argue it. I can definitely question it and I do. But as far as spending the time writing them in the hopes they change a stat isn't really worth it in the grand scheme of things.
    I need to start a thread centered around the topic PPO members I haven't met yet, but want to.....I think I would have you in my top 5.....
    LOL Marrdro. I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or what :laugh: It sounds like a good thread to me but there are many on here I would like to meet that I haven't yet. Actually my friend you would be there yourself.

  3. #53
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    V4L wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    PackSux! wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    My only discussion point with you was mostly related to how fans count drops. I'm not one of those "it hit him in the hands he should have caught it" kindof guys. I know there are alot of variables that go into a dropped ball and alot fo them aren't the recievers fault.

    Again, if you have a problem with how many they classified as drops, go to them and ask for the data. As they said on thier page, the stand by thier info.
    Drops, BTW, are not an official NFL statistic for this exact reason. That's why I tend to discount those stats.

    As to Berrian - his hammy clearly was hurting during a large part of the season. Sid Rice is now the deep threat. Berrian is not need to "stretch the field". If there's money to be saved that could be spent elsewhere, I'm all for letting him go.
    Trade him for Moss!

    That will solve everything.
    Dear God, no. Moss = Sid Rice. They are the same type of player. What the Vikings need is a possession guy like Welker who can play in the slot or on the outside.

    =Z=
    Jordan Shipley

    Percy Harvin
    he seems to drop too many to play the Welker role right now. I think with a couple years under him he could become a very reliable slot guy, but right now he seems best in the intermediate route. As he gets older and learns the game more, he could be a welker, or steve smith kind of guy.
    Tied at 46th with 4 dropped passes.



    Pro Football Focus WR stats
    once again, I'm not a fan of those drop stats, I doubt their accuracy.

    however, I'm not saying he has a drop problem, but his hand's aren't great. I expect they'll get better as he gets used to the pro game, he might get there, but he's not there yet, just my opinion.
    I thought the dude made some mad catches this year especially considering how he was learning the tree and caught alot of his balls in traffic.

    That catch in the Steelers game when the Noodle hit him with 3 defenders around him was a thing of beauty.

    Long story short, those hands will get better as his confidence grows.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #54
    vikinggreg's Avatar
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    V4L wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    PackSux! wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    My only discussion point with you was mostly related to how fans count drops. I'm not one of those "it hit him in the hands he should have caught it" kindof guys. I know there are alot of variables that go into a dropped ball and alot fo them aren't the recievers fault.

    Again, if you have a problem with how many they classified as drops, go to them and ask for the data. As they said on thier page, the stand by thier info.
    Drops, BTW, are not an official NFL statistic for this exact reason. That's why I tend to discount those stats.

    As to Berrian - his hammy clearly was hurting during a large part of the season. Sid Rice is now the deep threat. Berrian is not need to "stretch the field". If there's money to be saved that could be spent elsewhere, I'm all for letting him go.
    Trade him for Moss!

    That will solve everything.
    Dear God, no. Moss = Sid Rice. They are the same type of player. What the Vikings need is a possession guy like Welker who can play in the slot or on the outside.

    =Z=
    Jordan Shipley

    Percy Harvin
    he seems to drop too many to play the Welker role right now. I think with a couple years under him he could become a very reliable slot guy, but right now he seems best in the intermediate route. As he gets older and learns the game more, he could be a welker, or steve smith kind of guy.
    Tied at 46th with 4 dropped passes.



    Pro Football Focus WR stats
    How much faith do you put into that sites stats, they do rank Favre as the best passing QB in the league and second overall behind Rivers if you check

    These are by their grades which are subjective much like what is a drop

  5. #55
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    The curious case of Bernard Berrian
    LOL, no one wants to hear why I think his yards per AVG dropped, now do they....... :laugh:
    I think his regression was quite obvious to a lot of people. His speed was different as well as his difficulty in catchng the football. They don't mention that in this article. He had a few drops.

    Berrian has proven he could be productive. This wasn't a good year for him but it wasn't bad either. Just not what we expected of him.

    Hopefully he comes back 100% and doesn't re-injure his hammy again. Seems to be his forte as it happened in 2008 too.
    Hmmmm, tied for 63rd with 3 dropped passes. That doesn't seem like too many to me.

    Pro Football Focus Stats (Dropped Passes)
    Those only include passes right on the numbers and right on the hands.

    When Favre passes to the sideline side of the receiver on a quick out and Berrian has it go off his hands, that is not counted as a drop. An "on-target" pass would likely get defended or picked, so Favre must make that throw, and Berrian should catch it, but it does not count against Berrian - to some stat recorders, anyway.

  6. #56
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
    i_bleed_purple is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    V4L wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    PackSux! wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    My only discussion point with you was mostly related to how fans count drops. I'm not one of those "it hit him in the hands he should have caught it" kindof guys. I know there are alot of variables that go into a dropped ball and alot fo them aren't the recievers fault.

    Again, if you have a problem with how many they classified as drops, go to them and ask for the data. As they said on thier page, the stand by thier info.
    Drops, BTW, are not an official NFL statistic for this exact reason. That's why I tend to discount those stats.

    As to Berrian - his hammy clearly was hurting during a large part of the season. Sid Rice is now the deep threat. Berrian is not need to "stretch the field". If there's money to be saved that could be spent elsewhere, I'm all for letting him go.
    Trade him for Moss!

    That will solve everything.
    Dear God, no. Moss = Sid Rice. They are the same type of player. What the Vikings need is a possession guy like Welker who can play in the slot or on the outside.

    =Z=
    Jordan Shipley

    Percy Harvin
    he seems to drop too many to play the Welker role right now. I think with a couple years under him he could become a very reliable slot guy, but right now he seems best in the intermediate route. As he gets older and learns the game more, he could be a welker, or steve smith kind of guy.
    Tied at 46th with 4 dropped passes.



    Pro Football Focus WR stats
    once again, I'm not a fan of those drop stats, I doubt their accuracy.

    however, I'm not saying he has a drop problem, but his hand's aren't great. I expect they'll get better as he gets used to the pro game, he might get there, but he's not there yet, just my opinion.
    I thought the dude made some mad catches this year especially considering how he was learning the tree and caught alot of his balls in traffic.
    He has, He makes some great catches, but not all of them. I have no doubt he'll get better as he matures, he's still a rookie, but he's not quite there yet. I'm sure you'll have to agree.

    Long story short, those hands will get better as his confidence grows.
    That's what I've been saying. Playing with "the ole noodle" certainly accelerated his confidence growth. I'm particularly interested to see how Harvin and Rice play next season if Favre doesn't come back.

  7. #57
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Re:The curious case of Bernard Berrian

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    V4L wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    PackSux! wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    My only discussion point with you was mostly related to how fans count drops. I'm not one of those "it hit him in the hands he should have caught it" kindof guys. I know there are alot of variables that go into a dropped ball and alot fo them aren't the recievers fault.

    Again, if you have a problem with how many they classified as drops, go to them and ask for the data. As they said on thier page, the stand by thier info.
    Drops, BTW, are not an official NFL statistic for this exact reason. That's why I tend to discount those stats.

    As to Berrian - his hammy clearly was hurting during a large part of the season. Sid Rice is now the deep threat. Berrian is not need to "stretch the field". If there's money to be saved that could be spent elsewhere, I'm all for letting him go.
    Trade him for Moss!

    That will solve everything.
    Dear God, no. Moss = Sid Rice. They are the same type of player. What the Vikings need is a possession guy like Welker who can play in the slot or on the outside.

    =Z=
    Jordan Shipley

    Percy Harvin
    he seems to drop too many to play the Welker role right now. I think with a couple years under him he could become a very reliable slot guy, but right now he seems best in the intermediate route. As he gets older and learns the game more, he could be a welker, or steve smith kind of guy.
    Wes Welker is a great possession receiver. He gets into space and makes catches.

    Percy Harvin is more of a YAC receiver. He makes catches and gets into space.

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