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  1. #21
    ultravikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:





    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.
    To the bolded text:
    Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

    And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

    If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

    For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

    Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

    That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

    Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.


    Bolding text in a quote does not work anymore.
    Change the color instead.

  2. #22
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:





    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.
    To the bolded text:
    Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

    And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

    If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

    For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

    Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

    That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

    Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.


    Bolding text in a quote does not work anymore.
    Change the color instead.
    Really? Too bad. Did you change the color for me? The paragraph about Deion and Darrell Green actually looks bold, and the one below red.

    Thanks for the heads-up.

  3. #23
    ultravikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    I changed the color to red.

  4. #24
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    It sure hasnt been working so far. Stopping the run hasnt done anything for us either.

    We dont have good enough cover CBs to do man, our safties suck, LBs cant cover my grandma, and we dont get enough pressure for the Cover 2 to work.

  5. #25
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:

    Bolding text in a quote does not work anymore.
    Change the color instead.
    Yes it does.
    I can see it bold


    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #26
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:





    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.
    To the bolded text:
    Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

    And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

    If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

    For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

    Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

    That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

    Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.


    And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

    And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

    So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.

  7. #27
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:





    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.
    To the bolded text:
    Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

    And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

    If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

    For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

    Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

    That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

    Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.


    And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

    And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

    So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.
    Nobody's perfect, but I think we have a set of corners better suited to play the press than anyone. We all know how physical Winfield is, and Griffin is a big corner and 7th in the NFL in solo tackles.

    And IMO, to get this team from theory to reality we need to jam at the line.

    Disrupt their timing, and your own little mistakes matter a lot less.

  8. #28
    V4L's Avatar
    V4L
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:





    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.
    To the bolded text:
    Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

    And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

    If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

    For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

    Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

    That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

    Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.


    And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

    And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

    So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.
    Nobody's perfect, but I think we have a set of corners better suited to play the press than anyone. We all know how physical Winfield is, and Griffin is a big corner and 7th in the NFL in solo tackles.

    And IMO, to get this team from theory to reality we need to jam at the line.

    Disrupt their timing, and your own little mistakes matter a lot less.

    Agreed

    Only thing is in my eyes issssssssssss

    Yes they have the build and physicality but can they really press good? Maybe they are bad at it so we don't?

    Just a thought... But I agree with ya

  9. #29
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Bleedin" wrote:
    "Chazz" wrote:
    I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.
    Thats the 2 man press.
    That is what we should do. Cedric and Winfield are built for the press. Cedric mastered it in college and now we put him in this crap. No wonder why he looks bad.

  10. #30
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    I agree with the press and cover 2 shell!!!

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