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  1. #11
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Mr" wrote:
    I like the cover 2.

    I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

    Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

    The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


    So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.
    I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.

  2. #12
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    I like the cover 2.

    I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

    Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

    The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


    So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.
    I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.
    Give up a home run?

    In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.


    IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.

  3. #13
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    I like the cover 2.

    I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

    Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

    The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


    So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.
    I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.
    Give up a home run?

    In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.


    IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.
    I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.

  4. #14
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    I like the cover 2.

    I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

    Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

    The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


    So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.
    I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.
    Give up a home run?

    In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.


    IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.
    I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.
    It's not very often 2 players go deep in the same zone. It's only really effective against the cover 2. Against the Bears we had Both WRs and Shank run go routes to take advantage of that very flaw, easy TD to Shank.

    It was either a TD or it ended up on the 1 or 2, and we punched it in, I forget.

  5. #15
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    I like the cover 2.

    I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

    Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

    The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


    So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.
    I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.
    Give up a home run?

    In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.


    IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.
    I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.
    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.


  6. #16
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Chazz" wrote:
    I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.
    Thats the 2 man press.
    THAT OLD LADY IS NOT ME..HAHA

  7. #17
    thorshammer is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    Yep ... play press with the corners .... cover 2 behind it .... felt we should be doing this all season .... why hasn't the brain trust thought of this or at least tried to implement it to see what it yields.
    Could be just enough to make the D more productive on the take away side.

  8. #18
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Bleedin" wrote:
    "Chazz" wrote:
    I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.
    Thats the 2 man press.
    That works well in two WR sets. But playing man at the corner(with your base personnel package) in 3+ WR sets causes serious mismatches.

    Really, all that has to happen is: we get pressure(jamming at the line would allow us to apply better pressure) also those jams at the line would put our corners closer to the WR, eliminating those pesky short routes, which theoretically should be the hardest passes to complete against the cover 2(due to the 5 men playing underneath zones) and if the linebackers make proper pattern reads, we shouldn't get hit deep.

    Of course that is all theoretical... but I believe we have the personnel to execute(especially with a healthy EJ Henderson.) Physical cornerbacks, safeties that can cover a lot of ground, a line that should be able to apply a ton of pressure, athletic linebackers, and a coach that came up under Tony Dungy.

  9. #19
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "Mr" wrote:




    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.

  10. #20
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    Re: Cover 2 - Yes or No

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:





    It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

    Let's say they line up two receivers left.
    What are their options for two home run routes?
    Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
    A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
    A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
    If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



    It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

    You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

    My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

    So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.
    To the bolded text:
    Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

    And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

    If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

    For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

    Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

    That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

    Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.



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