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  1. #101
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    ejmat wrote:
    And how is that Childress' fault? You seem to have a beef with Childress. What does he have to do with the 2 Superbowl winners that weren't hired by the Vikings?

    You can blame Childress for everything that goes wrong. That's your opinion. I have mine. I see the big picture. Sure he took the blame him for the 12 man on the field. He took responsibility like he should have. However, knowing what I know about football I can blame Bienemy more than Childress. The position coaches usually set the packages for certain sets. Funny how you say you know everything behind the scenes yet you don't understand anything about the FO or position coaches and what they are responsible for.

    You have no clue if Childress is or ever will be good in any department. Show me some proof since you have all this insight. I can admit he makes mistakes every now and then. Show me one, I repeat, one head coach that doesn't make mistakes. When you can substantiate that maybe I'll hate Childress too. Until then learn what happens behind the scenes before you spew BS from your typing fingers.
    .......snicker.......

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  2. #102
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    ndnorseman wrote:
    12purplepride...

    You left out the 10-6 and 12-4 seasons. For a coach to be able to hold his team together and steadily improve by 2 games every year over a 4 year span isn't exactly easy, especially these days.

    Also...from Day One when the news first broke about Favre possibly heading over to the Vikings, it's been Childress that was connected with making it happen, far more many times than Wilf or Spielman were even mentioned.

    As to my previous post and those responding to it (Marrdro LOL):

    No, I don't expect a rookie QB to come in and light the League on fire after just a year on the bench. What we should be looking for, however, is marked improvement from year to year. Not just occasional and sporadic flashes. As for the long list of QBs that midgensa gave us who turned out to be their respective team's "franchise guy", it proves my point, but with a caveat...they, too, had their own learning curves and bumps in the road, but they showed enough improvement in each of the few years after they were drafted to earn the "franchise guy" status.

    JMO, but I don't think T-Jack has done that, and if he hasn't by now, I just don't see it happening, period. The "franchise guys" make things happen and don't necessarily need a stellar supporting cast.
    Damn solid post my friend. Still just that one more nagging issue/discussion point for you to answer.....

    How many "Franchise QB's" have been available for this staff to draft or bring in over the short timeframe they have been building this team?

    Other than maybe the shot we goofed on with respect to Cutler, 0 Rooks have been available when we have drafted.

    To date, the only Vet that anyone can actually verify that he was available and we missed on was Warner and I would dare say that when he was available, almost every team (and fan) would have said no to that cat.

    There has been an effort to prove that when the whole Pepp thing happened that we could have gotten Brees, but again, most on this site (as well as most coaching staffs) balked at that notion because of his shoulder.

    Enter the Noodle. Every ounce of my being shudders at the thought of him being on this team, but even I won't detract from what he has meant while he has been here. This staff went out of its way to steal him in 08 (still say we were meddling when we shouldn't have) and then finally got him in 09.

    Again, its easy to sit back in our arm chairs sudsing down the Beast and spewing forth stuff like how bad this staff has been when it came to fixing the QB position, but when on really looks at it from a reality perspective, one would have to admit that it hasn't been the best environment to find a solid fit since this regime took over.

    On a side note: I still think that TJ is gonna be the guy. Has he had issues over his brief career that has left me scratching my slightly balding head? Of course there has, but I then take a step back and cast an ugly glare at the coaching staff for running him out there early.

    In the end, it appears the coaching staff new what they were doing. With nothing better available, they went ahead and let him get his reps which I believe, coupled with his time on the bench, will reap huge dividends when we see him on the field this year.
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  3. #103
    12purplepride28's Avatar
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    ndnorseman wrote:
    12purplepride...

    You left out the 10-6 and 12-4 seasons. For a coach to be able to hold his team together and steadily improve by 2 games every year over a 4 year span isn't exactly easy, especially these days.

    Also...from Day One when the news first broke about Favre possibly heading over to the Vikings, it's been Childress that was connected with making it happen, far more many times than Wilf or Spielman were even mentioned.
    I didn't leave those years out, I said its not hard to improve on 6-10 and 8-8, implying that we did improve on those records.

    And I do give childress kudos for bringing in favre, but did he really have a choice? Why do people give him credit for bringing in all these great players, yet they don't blame him for not addressing the most important position on the team. Did he really have a choice but to go get Favre? Another mediocre year with Jackson and Chilly woulda been canned. So ya he brought Favre, but we never should have been in the position to have to fall back on a 40 year old (I love Favre on the Vikings btw)
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  4. #104
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    And how is that Childress' fault? You seem to have a beef with Childress. What does he have to do with the 2 Superbowl winners that weren't hired by the Vikings?

    You can blame Childress for everything that goes wrong. That's your opinion. I have mine. I see the big picture. Sure he took the blame him for the 12 man on the field. He took responsibility like he should have. However, knowing what I know about football I can blame Bienemy more than Childress. The position coaches usually set the packages for certain sets. Funny how you say you know everything behind the scenes yet you don't understand anything about the FO or position coaches and what they are responsible for.

    You have no clue if Childress is or ever will be good in any department. Show me some proof since you have all this insight. I can admit he makes mistakes every now and then. Show me one, I repeat, one head coach that doesn't make mistakes. When you can substantiate that maybe I'll hate Childress too. Until then learn what happens behind the scenes before you spew BS from your typing fingers.
    .......snicker.......

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  5. #105
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    midgensa wrote:
    All you people are crazy.

    What "franchise" QBs sat on the bench 3 or 4 years and then had a year of gaffes? I can name a shitload who DIDN'T do that. Dan Marino, John Elway, Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Jim Kelly, Donovan McNabb, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, Drew Bledsoe, Dan Fouts, Ken Anderson, Johnny U., Troy Aikman, Randall Cunningham, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Namath, Steve McNair, Phil Simms, joe Flacco, Roger Staubach, Jay Cutler, Bob Griese, Bart Starr, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Carson Palmer, Philip Rivers, Archie Manning, Matt Ryan, Michael Vick, Mark Sanchez, Boomer Esiason, Brett Lorenzo Favre ... and the list goes on. Hell, even Aaron Rodgers didn't sit and learn for "three or four years and then get a season of gaffes".

    NONE of those guys sat and learned for three or four years. Hell ... half of them were starters at least by the end of their ROOKIE season. Almost all were starters opening day of their second season.

    Where is this mystical "let them sit and learn for three to four years" approach? Because I certainly don't see it among the good quarterbacks in NFL history. Please show me this plethora of quarterbacks that blossomed in year 5 that you all are talking about?
    lmao, you speak some truth. There are plenty of examples of guys that started they year they were drafted with varying degrees of success. Many floundered their first year or two and either excelled (P. Mannings of the world) or faltered (Charlie Batches of the world). I spent some time this a.m. looking over some of the QBs of days gone by and in the current era and it would take a statistical analysis that I don't have time to put together to get a real answer. I'm sure it has been done in some fashion already. You can take a gander at the list of QBs for a quick look at some of your favorites at: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/qbindex.htm

    Some are known projects. TJack definitely is/was a project. The bottom-line for me is that this team has made wholesale changes on offense and defense and is a solid team. More solid than any team I have seen on the field since the 60s and 70s. If people cannot tell that the QB slot is the huge question mark on the team there is nothing I can do for them. Favre helped make that blatantly obvious last year.

    Where to put the blame? Sure, people can blame Childress because he's the HC and part of his role is to accept the blame for everything, but, along with that is give him kudos for the things that were done well. Again, a good HC (leader) will accept all blame and give his staff kudos for the positive aspects of the team. Childress has done that.

    If you just think logically about the current situation the team is solid. How do I know that? Well, if Gus Frerrote can put the team in position so a sporadically good TJack can finish the season and get them to the playoffs it is the team carrying the load. If an HOF QB comes in during his waning years and has a career year resulting in complete domination of the eventual SB winner in the NFCCG in every statistical category with some boneheaded plays that made the difference to the outcome of the game, in OT, on the road, then the team is on the cusp of greatness.

    Now, when Favre comes back for another year and the Vikings have TJack as one of the top-tier backups in the league...all is good with the team. Whether they go the route of getting a patchwork veteran QB to till in during the Favreless 2011 season or go with TJack in a QB comptetition with some rookie or whatever they do will be fine. Most teams only have a few blips of time when they have a so-called 'franchise QB'. I would rather have a competition at QB happening that be a team like the past Falcons that built around Ron Mexico which led to nothing. Or a team like the past Saints who built around Aaron Brooks which lead to nothing. The Vikings have built a solid team, one that can plug in a competent QB and win games. Most teams don't have a 'franchise QB'. We can hope the Vikings eventually get one, but, until then there will be inevitable ebbs and flows.

    I am not as concerned as some. Since Childress took the reigns of a team that was damn near as pathetic as the Bengals regarding their team unity it has come together. Phat Pat even mentioned that when he joined the team at the end of the Meathead era and was in the locker room he was wondering what he got himself into. The Vikings are still dealing with some of the cancers from that era, mainly McKinnie. But, for the most part, they have turned the corner and built a team that is powerful. Offseason acquisitions ranging from the 'poison pill' Hutchinson acquisition to the Jared Allen acquistion to two rookies of the year to.... Anyone that cannot see that this team is solid should put down the crack pipe. I'm not saying this with the purple shades on, I'm saying it as a fan of the NFL for many decades.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  6. #106
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    12purplepride28 wrote:
    ndnorseman wrote:
    12purplepride...

    You left out the 10-6 and 12-4 seasons. For a coach to be able to hold his team together and steadily improve by 2 games every year over a 4 year span isn't exactly easy, especially these days.

    Also...from Day One when the news first broke about Favre possibly heading over to the Vikings, it's been Childress that was connected with making it happen, far more many times than Wilf or Spielman were even mentioned.
    I didn't leave those years out, I said its not hard to improve on 6-10 and 8-8, implying that we did improve on those records.

    And I do give childress kudos for bringing in favre, but did he really have a choice? Why do people give him credit for bringing in all these great players, yet they don't blame him for not addressing the most important position on the team. Did he really have a choice but to go get Favre? Another mediocre year with Jackson and Chilly woulda been canned. So ya he brought Favre, but we never should have been in the position to have to fall back on a 40 year old (I love Favre on the Vikings btw)
    Actually, it is hard to improve on an 8-8 record. And it is even harder to improve on a 10-6 record. And it is very hard, especially in our conference, to be back to back division champion.

    But since you seem to be such a great coaching mind, what exactly would you do - right now - to solve what you obviously feel is a failure at the QB position? If you were suddenly given the head coaching job and the power to make personnel decisions, what would you do? I am dying to hear what kind of genius plan you would come up with.

    Anybody can look <em>back</em> on a four year coaching career and point out the things they would have done differently had then known then what they know now. But it is a helluva lot harder to make those same decisions without the benefit of knowing how each will turn out.

    Do I think Childress made mistakes? Yes, especially in his first couple of years. In fact, I think his handling of the QB situation is his biggest mistake. But it would take an idiot not to realize that he has improved greatly every year, and that he has a lot to do with the success we have seen over the past couple of years (not to mention the success that we will see over the years to come).
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #107
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    Marrdro wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    And yet except Grant, every coach we have had that has gotten us to the NFC title game was gone a few years later because they got to that point and no farther. Childress will be the same way and all of the money spent and all of the talent brought in will yield no title.Do you honestly believe we will be better this coming year than last year? Right. Yes, the owner spent boatloads of cash and brought in boatloads of talent to win a SB.He didn't bring in that talent to be runner up or miss congeniality.

    And for the record I do not ignore the things he has done. I have even gone on record saying he would be great for the front office much like Denny Green would have been. Where they do not excel is just where they need to. Like when you have to know if there are 12 guys on the field, when you should punt, when to take a knee etc. He is not a top coach in those areas.Never was, never will be.

    At least 2 of those 27 were available when Childress was hired by the way
    How long do you think it should take a organization to completely gut and rebuild a team into a SB caliber team my friend?

    I think it would be an interesting study to look at the SB winners and see how long it took that coach to win it all.

    My guess, if you throw out the guys like Tomlin and Chucky who inherited SB caliber teams and won with them, one would probably find out this organization is a bit ahead of schedule in that timeline.

    Additionally, one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent.

    Judging by how smart they've been in the draft and using the FA market, I bet they wind up adding a few cats that just might turn out to be some pretty good players that just might make this team better.
    Couple of points to add:

    1: We are not even remotely "ahead of schedule" because the end of the "schedule" occurs when you WIN a Superbowl. Since we haven't gotten there yet, much less won it, we are neither on, ahead of, or behind "schedule".

    2: Has the increase in talent been dramatic? Perhaps only to Viking fans. You seem to forget that for YEARS we had Red "sucks squirrels" McCombs preventing us from signing anyone of consequence. Now, Wilf opens up the checkbook and anyone Chiller wants is bought. There is a HUGE difference in Front Office mentality, and THAT - far more than Chiller - is why we have had this dramatic change in player caliber.

    3: You said, "one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent."

    I disagree. I think we were built to win it last season. Further, you're statement assumes we will maintain the level of talent we have in all areas - meanwhile, guys like Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, Ben Leber, and Brett Favre are getting older. Got anyone in mind to replace them?

    4: You keep referencing the roster change in your rants against those of us NOT in favor of Chiller or Jackson. From 2008, here's the list of players who were no longer on the roster in 2009 offensively:

    Matt Birk, Center
    Mike Jones, Guard
    Marcus Johnson, Tackle
    John David Booty, Quarterback
    Maurice Hicks, Running Back
    Thomas Tapeh, Running Back
    Aundrea Allison, Wide Receiver
    Robert Fergusson, Wide Receiver
    Bobby Wade, Wide Receiver

    Here's who we added:

    C Cooper, Jon
    T Brown, Patrick
    T Clark, Chris
    T Loadholt, Phil
    QB Favre, Brett
    QB Rosenfels, Sage
    RB Johnson, Ian
    RB Johnson, James
    RB Young, Albert
    WR Biddle, Taye
    WR Harvin, Percy
    WR Johnson, Jaymar
    WR Lewis, Greg
    WR Perretta, Vinny

    So, according to you, the additions of Loadholt and Harvin - since they were the only two who really played - are the reason we were so successful offensively...not the addition of Favre.

    Hmmmm.......

    Caine

  8. #108
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    And yet except Grant, every coach we have had that has gotten us to the NFC title game was gone a few years later because they got to that point and no farther. Childress will be the same way and all of the money spent and all of the talent brought in will yield no title.Do you honestly believe we will be better this coming year than last year? Right. Yes, the owner spent boatloads of cash and brought in boatloads of talent to win a SB.He didn't bring in that talent to be runner up or miss congeniality.

    And for the record I do not ignore the things he has done. I have even gone on record saying he would be great for the front office much like Denny Green would have been. Where they do not excel is just where they need to. Like when you have to know if there are 12 guys on the field, when you should punt, when to take a knee etc. He is not a top coach in those areas.Never was, never will be.

    At least 2 of those 27 were available when Childress was hired by the way
    How long do you think it should take a organization to completely gut and rebuild a team into a SB caliber team my friend?

    I think it would be an interesting study to look at the SB winners and see how long it took that coach to win it all.

    My guess, if you throw out the guys like Tomlin and Chucky who inherited SB caliber teams and won with them, one would probably find out this organization is a bit ahead of schedule in that timeline.

    Additionally, one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent.

    Judging by how smart they've been in the draft and using the FA market, I bet they wind up adding a few cats that just might turn out to be some pretty good players that just might make this team better.
    Couple of points to add:

    1: We are not even remotely "ahead of schedule" because the end of the "schedule" occurs when you WIN a Superbowl. Since we haven't gotten there yet, much less won it, we are neither on, ahead of, or behind "schedule".

    2: Has the increase in talent been dramatic? Perhaps only to Viking fans. You seem to forget that for YEARS we had Red "sucks squirrels" McCombs preventing us from signing anyone of consequence. Now, Wilf opens up the checkbook and anyone Chiller wants is bought. There is a HUGE difference in Front Office mentality, and THAT - far more than Chiller - is why we have had this dramatic change in player caliber.

    3: You said, "one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent."

    I disagree. I think we were built to win it last season. Further, you're statement assumes we will maintain the level of talent we have in all areas - meanwhile, guys like Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, Ben Leber, and Brett Favre are getting older. Got anyone in mind to replace them?

    4: You keep referencing the roster change in your rants against those of us NOT in favor of Chiller or Jackson. From 2008, here's the list of players who were no longer on the roster in 2009 offensively:

    Matt Birk, Center
    Mike Jones, Guard
    Marcus Johnson, Tackle
    John David Booty, Quarterback
    Maurice Hicks, Running Back
    Thomas Tapeh, Running Back
    Aundrea Allison, Wide Receiver
    Robert Fergusson, Wide Receiver
    Bobby Wade, Wide Receiver

    Here's who we added:

    C Cooper, Jon
    T Brown, Patrick
    T Clark, Chris
    T Loadholt, Phil
    QB Favre, Brett
    QB Rosenfels, Sage
    RB Johnson, Ian
    RB Johnson, James
    RB Young, Albert
    WR Biddle, Taye
    WR Harvin, Percy
    WR Johnson, Jaymar
    WR Lewis, Greg
    WR Perretta, Vinny

    So, according to you, the additions of Loadholt and Harvin - since they were the only two who really played - are the reason we were so successful offensively...not the addition of Favre.

    Hmmmm.......

    Caine
    This one brought me out from under my rock.

    QUOTE

    3: You said, "one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent."

    I disagree. I think we were built to win it last season. Further, you're statement assumes we will maintain the level of talent we have in all areas - meanwhile, guys like Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, Ben Leber, and Brett Favre are getting older. Got anyone in mind to replace them?

    This is exactly how I feel. I sense the Vikings shot their wad last year. Though they still have a good team, I feel they will be hard pressed to win the NFCN this year.

    As far as TJ goes, I supported him until I saw the huge disparity between his performance and Favre's with basicly the same team.
    That was an eye opener for me.

    Now back under the rock.
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  9. #109
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    jargomcfargo wrote:
    This one brought me out from under my rock.

    QUOTE

    3: You said, "one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent."

    I disagree. I think we were built to win it last season. Further, you're statement assumes we will maintain the level of talent we have in all areas - meanwhile, guys like Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, Ben Leber, and Brett Favre are getting older. Got anyone in mind to replace them?

    This is exactly how I feel. I sense the Vikings shot their wad last year. Though they still have a good team, I feel they will be hard pressed to win the NFCN this year.

    As far as TJ goes, I supported him until I saw the huge disparity between his performance and Favre's with basicly the same team.
    That was an eye opener for me.

    Now back under the rock.
    You should come out from under that rock more often.

    I both agree and disagree with what you said. First, I agree that we were built to win last year. Seriously, I am amazed at the amount of talent we had last year and the high level of play we saw.

    But I disagree with the implication that our talent level is poised to fall off. You specifically mention Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, Ben Leber, and Brett Favre as players who may not be able to contribute at as high of a level. Let's start with Pat. While I love the guy and truly want to see him get a ring, his production last year was not as good as some many believe. I think the Jimmy Kennedy is more than ready to take over the reigns, and there are enough good DTs in this years draft that we will almost surely draft one somewhere to provide more depth. Winfield is a great tackling corner, and we need more depth at CB. But he still has a couple more years in him, Griffin played very well last year, Asher Allen I think has a LOT of potential, and I fully expect us to take another CB with our first round pick. Leber is entering his 9th season, but again, has at least a couple of years left in him. And Jasper Brinkley didn't disappoint last year when he was thrust into the starting spot.

    Honestly, in every position except for QB, I see a team that is briming with talent and depth. If Favre still plays in 2010 (as I expect him to), then we are going to be as good if not better than we were last year. And God willing, if we can find a long term solution to QB, then we are going to be a dominent force in the NFC for quite some time to come.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #110
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    Re:Childress says Jackson grew while watching

    Caine wrote:
    Couple of points to add:
    I love it when you add points....

    1: We are not even remotely "ahead of schedule" because the end of the "schedule" occurs when you WIN a Superbowl. Since we haven't gotten there yet, much less won it, we are neither on, ahead of, or behind "schedule".
    Fair enough, I will agree with that point, but even should then readilly agree with my point that this team was turned around pretty quickly when you consider it was predominantly built through the draft.

    2: Has the increase in talent been dramatic? Perhaps only to Viking fans. You seem to forget that for YEARS we had Red "sucks squirrels" McCombs preventing us from signing anyone of consequence. Now, Wilf opens up the checkbook and anyone Chiller wants is bought. There is a HUGE difference in Front Office mentality, and THAT - far more than Chiller - is why we have had this dramatic change in player caliber.
    So what your trying to say is that because the Ownership group is willing to spend, we shouldn't take into account the HC's scheme or type of players he needs to run that scheme as meaningfull?

    As to "Anyone the Chiller wants is bought" comment. I still say that anyone who believes a HC would opt to run out a team of rookies as starters each and every year is kindof missig the mark. If the HC had his way he would have HOF'rs at each and every position.

    Truth of the matter is, our FO pukes, working closely with the Coaching staff, has done a pretty good job of maintaining a mix of youngsters, resigned Vets and a select group of FA Vets to make this team.

    I would hardly equate that to running around buying all the talent ala the Deadskins old way of doing business.

    3: You said, "one would probablay also see that this team isn't built to win it last year, but is just getting to the level of being a serious contender for several years to come and thats if they don't add talent."

    I disagree. I think we were built to win it last season. Further, you're statement assumes we will maintain the level of talent we have in all areas - meanwhile, guys like Pat Williams, Antoine Winfield, Ben Leber, and Brett Favre are getting older. Got anyone in mind to replace them?
    I have the same guys in mind who has stepped onto the field and replaced every player that eventually quit playing at the NFL level.

    Truth of the matter is Pat Williams played less and less last year. The brought in JK to take some reps off for him, but no, there is no one identified to replace him.

    I could plug Sapp or Asher Allen in (like they did last year) for Whinny. Dude is a liability out there when he can actually get out there.

    I will agree that they should have looked at Lebers replacement last year, allowing him 2 years to learn. Maybe that guy is already here in Leman, or maybe the get another guy in this draft that can replace him in 2011.

    In the end, players come, players go, teams that continue to plan for it will continue to win games. Those that go out and spend everything on a bunch of vets so that a team can "Win Now", well, we have watched that happen alot now haven't we.

    Pay close head to what the Deadskins are doing this year. Gutted the team. Gonna use the draft wisely to add talent etc etc etc. Only thing they are gonna do different is to have a good QB under center.

    Luckily for them there just happened to be one available.

    4: You keep referencing the roster change in your rants against those of us NOT in favor of Chiller or Jackson. From 2008, here's the list of players who were no longer on the roster in 2009 offensively:

    Matt Birk, Center
    Mike Jones, Guard
    Marcus Johnson, Tackle
    John David Booty, Quarterback
    Maurice Hicks, Running Back
    Thomas Tapeh, Running Back
    Aundrea Allison, Wide Receiver
    Robert Fergusson, Wide Receiver
    Bobby Wade, Wide Receiver

    Here's who we added:

    C Cooper, Jon
    T Brown, Patrick
    T Clark, Chris
    T Loadholt, Phil
    QB Favre, Brett
    QB Rosenfels, Sage
    RB Johnson, Ian
    RB Johnson, James
    RB Young, Albert
    WR Biddle, Taye
    WR Harvin, Percy
    WR Johnson, Jaymar
    WR Lewis, Greg
    WR Perretta, Vinny

    So, according to you, the additions of Loadholt and Harvin - since they were the only two who really played - are the reason we were so successful offensively...not the addition of Favre.
    First, Birk sucked and the guy they brought in did a better job. It was time for him to go. Kindof gets back to the whole "Built to win now" mentality.

    Funny how you forgot him in your list. Probably cause you only looked at additions to the roster and not who also was replaced. To simply pooo pooo away replacing 2/5ths of the OL in this scheme is kindof not your style. You above all people know the implications of new people working with new people in this scheme.

    JJ and DR making the roster are another couple of fun cats to look at. Along with PH, they almost made our return game worth watching for the first time in alot of years.

    Which brings me to PH and El Syd. Minimize PH's role all you want. I still say the he and El Zyd made the offense click. Again, another player you failed to mention. Sure he was on the roster last year, but we all know he played the whole year on one leg. Maybe you elected to not mention the injury issues I asked about cause you thought BB's injury this year offset El Syds health this year.

    And then that leaves the Noodle. Never once in all the stuff I've thrown out there about this cat have I ever once minimized his role in the teams success. My only point on that cat is that he wasn't the only reason for our success.

    Hell, if it wasn't for the addition of the Noodle and Greg Lewis we would have lost to the 49rs. Notice I included both of them. One to throw it and one to catch it. Which brings me all the way back the El Syd and PH's role in this. The Noodle made them look good if for no other reason than he wasn't afraid to throw the ball, but they also made him look good by going and getting it when most thought it was impossible to get.

    I know its hard for you to admit, but El Syd, PH and Shanc (almost every game) along with cats like Greg, made some pretty fantastic catches this year that if TJ made throws like that, you would be in his ass for accurecy issues.

    Hmmmm.......

    Caine
    Thats more than a couple of points by the way. They kindof grow on you when you get into a discussion don't they. :cheer:
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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