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  1. #141
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Chase Johnson - A big man to fill hole that McKinnie could leave

    "V" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    The reason why Jackson,Johnson, Bollinger, Holcolm or any other QB under center was unsuccessful with a 3 step drop is because there was too much pressure in their face to make a play. If there was 1 QB who had trouble while the rest were fine i could see putting it on the QB, but when you have different QB's with the same result, I look to the line.
    How about they were all bad QBs? How about that? Mayb they alll played bad because they all stunk it up last year( TJ less than others). Maybe our line woundn't be getting constantly blitzed if defenses thought our QB could make a play. Teams don't look at the line and say" they can't stop the blitz' They look at the QB and say..he can't make that throw to beat us. I don't know if you saw some of the games last year but we didn't have a QB that could keep defenses honest.

    I think this year we do!
    We have the same starting QB as last year

    As to whether all of the QB's were bad, I suppose that is possible. But if it is, then what does it say for a FO to bring in that many QB's and have them all fail miserably? It's hard to defend.

    I would, however, counter by saying that Johnson had a 7-2 record the year before Childress came in and his skills did not drop off that much in one year, and he did play well enough for a prior team to win the SB.And as to the old argument that he has a weak arm and couldn't get the ball down the field, consider this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Johnson_%28American_football%29

    And despite his age he threw just as many 40+ yard passes in 2005 as top 29 yr old QB Peyton Manning - six - in seven fewer games, which was the same amount as his Super Bowl year which had four more games.
    And

    In the pre-season of 2006 Johnson had a passer rating of 110.7, one of the top 10 in the league out of more than 100 quarterbacks who performed.
    And

    Brad played very well in 2005 and set a team record for lowest interception to attempt ratio (1.3% - same as his record in Tampa) which was the lowest in the NFL among starting QBs. While starting against teams that included the second (Bears), fourth (Ravens), fifth (Steelers), and seventh (Packers) ranked defenses in the NFL[5] his passer rating was the third best in the NFC among starting quarterbacks[6], and was also better than three QBs selected to the Pro Bowl.
    And

    In 2003 he won the NFL's "Quarterback Challenge" competition, in which he beat Pro Bowl QBs Tom Brady, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Garcia, Mark Brunell, Marc Bulger and others like Byron Leftwich and Joey Harrington in a skills competition with four parts involving accuracy, speed and mobility, long distance throw, and "No Huddle."[3] Former teammate Sean Salisbury said that despite having big, strong arms and a great deep ball, Brad always played it safe and went for the fast and easy completion which earned him the nickname "Checkdown Charlie" among friends.[4]
    Holcolm also had some measure of success . Here is a little info on that:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Holcomb

    Memorable moments

    He has two of the most memorable passing performances in NFL history. A Wild Card game against Pittsburgh in January 2003 saw Holcomb become the 3rd QB in playoff history to throw for more than 400 yards. With no running support whatsoever, Holcomb shredded the Steelers' secondary. He finished with 429 yards, a new postseason record for a regulation game. However, Tommy Maddox rallied the Steelers late in the game to overcome a 17-point deficit and defeat the Browns, 36-33.
    So it's not like he doesn't have the ability to get it done.


    Bollinger.

    Well, I am not much of a fan but he certainly displayed in NY that he was able to be at least an adequate Qb when needed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Bollinger

    Bollinger kept improving with experience and finished the season strong as the starter with a 2-7 record. Brooks also won honors as the Jets Most Valuable Player for the month of December, including his first 300+ yard passing game versus Miami on December 18th 2005.
    Even with the lowly jets he was able to put up a 300 yard game. The Vikings have not had one single 300 yard game from any QB since Childress has been the coach.


    These were not terrible QB's. They were not put in a position to be able to succeed.
    Very true. However, the OL was not the only reason for this. The coaching was brand new and they also had no receivers to throw to.

    In regards to the OL, you can look at the fact that a new blocking scheme was installed, or that only two of the 5 Lineman had played together before.

    All those issues have been resolved, which is why I'm frankly not worried about the OL. I love the last sentence, but I can't agree with the "our QBs sucked, so our OL must have sucked" argument. That's what they said about David Carr in Houston. You have to at least spread the blame evenly.
    But when Carr left and Schaub came in, he finished the season with 9 td's and 9 int's and didn't exactly set the world on fire so really you can't say all the line needed was a QB change to look better

    As far as the line and their time together, the new scheme etc, you can find evidence that it doesn't take that long fr players to develop in the recent history of the Packers, who use the same type of blocking scheme and that they brought in 2 or 3 rookie linemen since Childress got here and they won the division twice and nearly went to the SB. So new linemen can learn the system quickly if it is taught correctly and if the right guys are brought in.

    Also, the Broncos are often mentioned and there is a quote that hets thrown around supposedly from Shanahan that says it takes 5 years to install the scheme but if you look at the broncos, they were 8-8 in his first year, 13-3 the second, 12-4 the next and then won 2 consecutive SB's. But the stats would say in the second year they had a line that gave elway the time to do what he needed, compared to the season before Shanahan got there when they were 7-9 under Phillips.


    So then if we are going down the road of saying they needed more time, it was not because of the scheme itself, but rather because they didn't have the talent capable of learning it at an acceptable pace or they didn't have the personnel that was capable of teaching the players their responsibility at an acceptable pace.

  2. #142
    kevoncox's Avatar
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    Re: Chase Johnson - A big man to fill hole that McKinnie could leave

    "V" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    The reason why Jackson,Johnson, Bollinger, Holcolm or any other QB under center was unsuccessful with a 3 step drop is because there was too much pressure in their face to make a play. If there was 1 QB who had trouble while the rest were fine i could see putting it on the QB, but when you have different QB's with the same result, I look to the line.
    How about they were all bad QBs? How about that? Mayb they alll played bad because they all stunk it up last year( TJ less than others). Maybe our line woundn't be getting constantly blitzed if defenses thought our QB could make a play. Teams don't look at the line and say" they can't stop the blitz' They look at the QB and say..he can't make that throw to beat us. I don't know if you saw some of the games last year but we didn't have a QB that could keep defenses honest.

    I think this year we do!
    We have the same starting QB as last year

    As to whether all of the QB's were bad, I suppose that is possible. But if it is, then what does it say for a FO to bring in that many QB's and have them all fail miserably? It's hard to defend.

    I would, however, counter by saying that Johnson had a 7-2 record the year before Childress came in and his skills did not drop off that much in one year, and he did play well enough for a prior team to win the SB.And as to the old argument that he has a weak arm and couldn't get the ball down the field, consider this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Johnson_%28American_football%29

    And despite his age he threw just as many 40+ yard passes in 2005 as top 29 yr old QB Peyton Manning - six - in seven fewer games, which was the same amount as his Super Bowl year which had four more games.
    And

    In the pre-season of 2006 Johnson had a passer rating of 110.7, one of the top 10 in the league out of more than 100 quarterbacks who performed.
    And

    Brad played very well in 2005 and set a team record for lowest interception to attempt ratio (1.3% - same as his record in Tampa) which was the lowest in the NFL among starting QBs. While starting against teams that included the second (Bears), fourth (Ravens), fifth (Steelers), and seventh (Packers) ranked defenses in the NFL[5] his passer rating was the third best in the NFC among starting quarterbacks[6], and was also better than three QBs selected to the Pro Bowl.
    And

    In 2003 he won the NFL's "Quarterback Challenge" competition, in which he beat Pro Bowl QBs Tom Brady, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Garcia, Mark Brunell, Marc Bulger and others like Byron Leftwich and Joey Harrington in a skills competition with four parts involving accuracy, speed and mobility, long distance throw, and "No Huddle."[3] Former teammate Sean Salisbury said that despite having big, strong arms and a great deep ball, Brad always played it safe and went for the fast and easy completion which earned him the nickname "Checkdown Charlie" among friends.[4]
    Holcolm also had some measure of success . Here is a little info on that:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Holcomb

    Memorable moments

    He has two of the most memorable passing performances in NFL history. A Wild Card game against Pittsburgh in January 2003 saw Holcomb become the 3rd QB in playoff history to throw for more than 400 yards. With no running support whatsoever, Holcomb shredded the Steelers' secondary. He finished with 429 yards, a new postseason record for a regulation game. However, Tommy Maddox rallied the Steelers late in the game to overcome a 17-point deficit and defeat the Browns, 36-33.
    So it's not like he doesn't have the ability to get it done.


    Bollinger.

    Well, I am not much of a fan but he certainly displayed in NY that he was able to be at least an adequate Qb when needed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Bollinger

    Bollinger kept improving with experience and finished the season strong as the starter with a 2-7 record. Brooks also won honors as the Jets Most Valuable Player for the month of December, including his first 300+ yard passing game versus Miami on December 18th 2005.
    Even with the lowly jets he was able to put up a 300 yard game. The Vikings have not had one single 300 yard game from any QB since Childress has been the coach.


    These were not terrible QB's. They were not put in a position to be able to succeed.
    Very true. However, the OL was not the only reason for this. The coaching was brand new and they also had no receivers to throw to.

    In regards to the OL, you can look at the fact that a new blocking scheme was installed, or that only two of the 5 Lineman had played together before.

    All those issues have been resolved, which is why I'm frankly not worried about the OL. I love the last sentence, but I can't agree with the "our QBs sucked, so our OL must have sucked" argument. That's what they said about David Carr in Houston. You have to at least spread the blame evenly.
    Except Shaub and Rosenfeld looks very good last year and did not get sacked( killed) as often as Carr.

  3. #143
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    Re: Chase Johnson - A big man to fill hole that McKinnie could leave

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    The reason why Jackson,Johnson, Bollinger, Holcolm or any other QB under center was unsuccessful with a 3 step drop is because there was too much pressure in their face to make a play. If there was 1 QB who had trouble while the rest were fine i could see putting it on the QB, but when you have different QB's with the same result, I look to the line.
    How about they were all bad QBs? How about that? Mayb they alll played bad because they all stunk it up last year( TJ less than others). Maybe our line woundn't be getting constantly blitzed if defenses thought our QB could make a play. Teams don't look at the line and say" they can't stop the blitz' They look at the QB and say..he can't make that throw to beat us. I don't know if you saw some of the games last year but we didn't have a QB that could keep defenses honest.

    I think this year we do!
    We have the same starting QB as last year

    As to whether all of the QB's were bad, I suppose that is possible. But if it is, then what does it say for a FO to bring in that many QB's and have them all fail miserably? It's hard to defend.

    I would, however, counter by saying that Johnson had a 7-2 record the year before Childress came in and his skills did not drop off that much in one year, and he did play well enough for a prior team to win the SB.And as to the old argument that he has a weak arm and couldn't get the ball down the field, consider this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Johnson_%28American_football%29

    And despite his age he threw just as many 40+ yard passes in 2005 as top 29 yr old QB Peyton Manning - six - in seven fewer games, which was the same amount as his Super Bowl year which had four more games.
    And

    In the pre-season of 2006 Johnson had a passer rating of 110.7, one of the top 10 in the league out of more than 100 quarterbacks who performed.
    And

    Brad played very well in 2005 and set a team record for lowest interception to attempt ratio (1.3% - same as his record in Tampa) which was the lowest in the NFL among starting QBs. While starting against teams that included the second (Bears), fourth (Ravens), fifth (Steelers), and seventh (Packers) ranked defenses in the NFL[5] his passer rating was the third best in the NFC among starting quarterbacks[6], and was also better than three QBs selected to the Pro Bowl.
    And

    In 2003 he won the NFL's "Quarterback Challenge" competition, in which he beat Pro Bowl QBs Tom Brady, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Garcia, Mark Brunell, Marc Bulger and others like Byron Leftwich and Joey Harrington in a skills competition with four parts involving accuracy, speed and mobility, long distance throw, and "No Huddle."[3] Former teammate Sean Salisbury said that despite having big, strong arms and a great deep ball, Brad always played it safe and went for the fast and easy completion which earned him the nickname "Checkdown Charlie" among friends.[4]
    Holcolm also had some measure of success . Here is a little info on that:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Holcomb

    Memorable moments

    He has two of the most memorable passing performances in NFL history. A Wild Card game against Pittsburgh in January 2003 saw Holcomb become the 3rd QB in playoff history to throw for more than 400 yards. With no running support whatsoever, Holcomb shredded the Steelers' secondary. He finished with 429 yards, a new postseason record for a regulation game. However, Tommy Maddox rallied the Steelers late in the game to overcome a 17-point deficit and defeat the Browns, 36-33.
    So it's not like he doesn't have the ability to get it done.


    Bollinger.

    Well, I am not much of a fan but he certainly displayed in NY that he was able to be at least an adequate Qb when needed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Bollinger

    Bollinger kept improving with experience and finished the season strong as the starter with a 2-7 record. Brooks also won honors as the Jets Most Valuable Player for the month of December, including his first 300+ yard passing game versus Miami on December 18th 2005.
    Even with the lowly jets he was able to put up a 300 yard game. The Vikings have not had one single 300 yard game from any QB since Childress has been the coach.


    These were not terrible QB's. They were not put in a position to be able to succeed.
    Very true. However, the OL was not the only reason for this. The coaching was brand new and they also had no receivers to throw to.

    In regards to the OL, you can look at the fact that a new blocking scheme was installed, or that only two of the 5 Lineman had played together before.

    All those issues have been resolved, which is why I'm frankly not worried about the OL. I love the last sentence, but I can't agree with the "our QBs sucked, so our OL must have sucked" argument. That's what they said about David Carr in Houston. You have to at least spread the blame evenly.
    But when Carr left and Schaub came in, he finished the season with 9 td's and 9 int's and didn't exactly set the world on fire so really you can't say all the line needed was a QB change to look better

    As far as the line and their time together, the new scheme etc, you can find evidence that it doesn't take that long fr players to develop in the recent history of the Packers, who use the same type of blocking scheme and that they brought in 2 or 3 rookie linemen since Childress got here and they won the division twice and nearly went to the SB. So new linemen can learn the system quickly if it is taught correctly and if the right guys are brought in.

    Also, the Broncos are often mentioned and there is a quote that hets thrown around supposedly from Shanahan that says it takes 5 years to install the scheme but if you look at the broncos, they were 8-8 in his first year, 13-3 the second, 12-4 the next and then won 2 consecutive SB's. But the stats would say in the second year they had a line that gave elway the time to do what he needed, compared to the season before Shanahan got there when they were 7-9 under Phillips.


    So then if we are going down the road of saying they needed more time, it was not because of the scheme itself, but rather because they didn't have the talent capable of learning it at an acceptable pace or they didn't have the personnel that was capable of teaching the players their responsibility at an acceptable pace.
    Grear post. You almost shut me up. Key word being almost.

    As I've said before, its not just the QB. Look at Schaub's production before and after Andre Johnson got injured. The difference is amazing. Either way, OL issues were no longer the root of the problem in Houston.

    Also, the Broncos argument is encouraging. It shows steady progress with the same OL in place. I expect the same here. Is three years not an acceptable pace?
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  4. #144
    mountainviking's Avatar
    mountainviking is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Chase Johnson - A big man to fill hole that McKinnie could leave

    Aaah, the system, learning the new schemes, the turnover on personell, the lack of talent at WR despite a top ten pick there...so many other things holding those QBs back.
    Too easy to point the finger at the QB, but efficient offense requires all the players to perform.

    Three years is a pretty good "gelling" time, and we should see improvement in all phases of offense because of it!
    But at the beginning of the seaon, our guys won't have all of that third year of experience...just the off season OTAs, TC, and preseaon part.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  5. #145
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Chase Johnson - A big man to fill hole that McKinnie could leave

    "V" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    [quote author=UffDaVikes link=topic=45555.msg794725#msg794725 date=1214162367]
    The reason why Jackson,Johnson, Bollinger, Holcolm or any other QB under center was unsuccessful with a 3 step drop is because there was too much pressure in their face to make a play. If there was 1 QB who had trouble while the rest were fine i could see putting it on the QB, but when you have different QB's with the same result, I look to the line.
    How about they were all bad QBs? How about that? Mayb they alll played bad because they all stunk it up last year( TJ less than others). Maybe our line woundn't be getting constantly blitzed if defenses thought our QB could make a play. Teams don't look at the line and say" they can't stop the blitz' They look at the QB and say..he can't make that throw to beat us. I don't know if you saw some of the games last year but we didn't have a QB that could keep defenses honest.

    I think this year we do!
    We have the same starting QB as last year

    As to whether all of the QB's were bad, I suppose that is possible. But if it is, then what does it say for a FO to bring in that many QB's and have them all fail miserably? It's hard to defend.

    I would, however, counter by saying that Johnson had a 7-2 record the year before Childress came in and his skills did not drop off that much in one year, and he did play well enough for a prior team to win the SB.And as to the old argument that he has a weak arm and couldn't get the ball down the field, consider this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Johnson_%28American_football%29

    And despite his age he threw just as many 40+ yard passes in 2005 as top 29 yr old QB Peyton Manning - six - in seven fewer games, which was the same amount as his Super Bowl year which had four more games.
    And

    In the pre-season of 2006 Johnson had a passer rating of 110.7, one of the top 10 in the league out of more than 100 quarterbacks who performed.
    And

    Brad played very well in 2005 and set a team record for lowest interception to attempt ratio (1.3% - same as his record in Tampa) which was the lowest in the NFL among starting QBs. While starting against teams that included the second (Bears), fourth (Ravens), fifth (Steelers), and seventh (Packers) ranked defenses in the NFL[5] his passer rating was the third best in the NFC among starting quarterbacks[6], and was also better than three QBs selected to the Pro Bowl.
    And

    In 2003 he won the NFL's "Quarterback Challenge" competition, in which he beat Pro Bowl QBs Tom Brady, Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Garcia, Mark Brunell, Marc Bulger and others like Byron Leftwich and Joey Harrington in a skills competition with four parts involving accuracy, speed and mobility, long distance throw, and "No Huddle."[3] Former teammate Sean Salisbury said that despite having big, strong arms and a great deep ball, Brad always played it safe and went for the fast and easy completion which earned him the nickname "Checkdown Charlie" among friends.[4]
    Holcolm also had some measure of success . Here is a little info on that:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Holcomb

    Memorable moments

    He has two of the most memorable passing performances in NFL history. A Wild Card game against Pittsburgh in January 2003 saw Holcomb become the 3rd QB in playoff history to throw for more than 400 yards. With no running support whatsoever, Holcomb shredded the Steelers' secondary. He finished with 429 yards, a new postseason record for a regulation game. However, Tommy Maddox rallied the Steelers late in the game to overcome a 17-point deficit and defeat the Browns, 36-33.
    So it's not like he doesn't have the ability to get it done.


    Bollinger.

    Well, I am not much of a fan but he certainly displayed in NY that he was able to be at least an adequate Qb when needed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Bollinger

    Bollinger kept improving with experience and finished the season strong as the starter with a 2-7 record. Brooks also won honors as the Jets Most Valuable Player for the month of December, including his first 300+ yard passing game versus Miami on December 18th 2005.
    Even with the lowly jets he was able to put up a 300 yard game. The Vikings have not had one single 300 yard game from any QB since Childress has been the coach.


    These were not terrible QB's. They were not put in a position to be able to succeed.
    Very true. However, the OL was not the only reason for this. The coaching was brand new and they also had no receivers to throw to.

    In regards to the OL, you can look at the fact that a new blocking scheme was installed, or that only two of the 5 Lineman had played together before.

    All those issues have been resolved, which is why I'm frankly not worried about the OL. I love the last sentence, but I can't agree with the "our QBs sucked, so our OL must have sucked" argument. That's what they said about David Carr in Houston. You have to at least spread the blame evenly.
    But when Carr left and Schaub came in, he finished the season with 9 td's and 9 int's and didn't exactly set the world on fire so really you can't say all the line needed was a QB change to look better

    As far as the line and their time together, the new scheme etc, you can find evidence that it doesn't take that long fr players to develop in the recent history of the Packers, who use the same type of blocking scheme and that they brought in 2 or 3 rookie linemen since Childress got here and they won the division twice and nearly went to the SB. So new linemen can learn the system quickly if it is taught correctly and if the right guys are brought in.

    Also, the Broncos are often mentioned and there is a quote that hets thrown around supposedly from Shanahan that says it takes 5 years to install the scheme but if you look at the broncos, they were 8-8 in his first year, 13-3 the second, 12-4 the next and then won 2 consecutive SB's. But the stats would say in the second year they had a line that gave elway the time to do what he needed, compared to the season before Shanahan got there when they were 7-9 under Phillips.


    So then if we are going down the road of saying they needed more time, it was not because of the scheme itself, but rather because they didn't have the talent capable of learning it at an acceptable pace or they didn't have the personnel that was capable of teaching the players their responsibility at an acceptable pace.
    Grear post. You almost shut me up. Key word being almost.

    As I've said before, its not just the QB. Look at Schaub's production before and after Andre Johnson got injured. The difference is amazing. Either way, OL issues were no longer the root of the problem in Houston.

    Also, the Broncos argument is encouraging. It shows steady progress with the same OL in place. I expect the same here. Is three years not an acceptable pace?
    [/quote]

    On the subject of Denver, here is my take on the deal. I don't see it as steady progress, what I see is the first year was an adjustment where they steadily got better to end with an 8-8 record and by the second year they had it down and went to a 13-3 record. They had talent on their line that worked very well in that scheme and for the years they were together the line was dominant. As those guys left and were replaced, the team brought in guys who were not as good in the scheme as their predecessors and you have seen a decline in production for the majority of this year.

    Obviously the QB is a big difference and that is why we have to really wait and see how Jackson pans out. Hopefully he does well but when you look at the post Elway Bronco's, who have the same scheme but not the HOF QB and not the HOF linemen the offense isn't very kickass.

  6. #146
    HEY's Avatar
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    Re: Chase Johnson - A big man to fill hole that McKinnie could leave

    A few links about Chase Johnson:

    http://wyomingathletics.cstv.com/spo...n_chase00.html

    Chase Johnson has been one of the finest and most consistent offensive linemen in Wyoming school history. He will be a leading candidate for All-Mountain West Conference honors in 2006, after earning Honorable Mention All-Conference honors in each of the past two seasons. The 2006 season will mark his fourth season as a starter. In fact, he has started the last 35 consecutive games at left tackle for the Wyoming Cowboys, which dates back to the very first game of his redshirt freshman season.
    http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=14898

    http://was.scout.com/a.z?s=71&p=8&c=1&nid=3131591

    Pos: King-sized blocker who’s been very durable on the college level. Patient pass protector who gets his hands into defenders and effectively uses blocking angles. Sets with a wide base, jolts opponents and seals them from the action. Flashes power and has the ability to control defenders.

    Neg: Does not show a strong base, gets pushed back off the line and rarely gets movement from run blocks. Lacks a nasty attitude and does not work to finish blocks.
    Conclusion:
    I really have no idea of how good this guy is, but from what I've read it looks like he has the potentials to be a starter in the NFL. He looks like a big project, but his massive size, good strength, and superb durability is a good beginning.

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