Thread: Center John Sullivan shines in his first start

"C" wrote:

"battleaxe4cheese" wrote:

I think Loadholt and Sully did fairly well considering. I mean come on Rogers isn't a slouch like some people might think. He's a big s.o.b. Now if we don't see improvement then I would start to worry, but at this point all is well.

Look at it this way, Sullivan had to endure training camp going against two of the best DT's in the league... and then faced Shawn Rogers first game of the season.

Hopefully it's like being in the batters box in baseball, and now he can remove the donut and just start swinging away.

We'll see I guess.

Great analogy.

I think he'll be fine. He wasn't perfect on sunday, but what can you expect from essentially a rookie?

And let us not forget, Favre made a few mistakes as well.


And all this over-analysis of our line and whose man is who is pointless. There are not designated running lanes a huge majority of the time. Unless we know the exact playcall, look through the defensive alignment and how we are supposed to react to it, we can't accurately point fingers.

Rogers played hard last weekend, which means he was playing at a pro-bowl level.
Their entire defense was fired up and playing well.

Sullivan NEEDED to get man handled a little bit, and the Browns were the best team in the league for this lesson.
We should have beaten them, and did, and they aren't really a good enough team to hurt us if we make some mistakes.
Too large a talent difference.

That being said, the run a 3-4 and have a nasty nose guard, experience that will come in handy when he has to line up against GOOD 3-4 teams, the Ravens, Steelers and Packers.
It's good that we drew Cleveland first, so that the team gets a weaker taste of what to expect in the future, because if the offense isn't prepared to handle the 3-4, they're going to get smashed, Purple Jesus or not.

"Ranger" wrote:

Rogers played hard last weekend, which means he was playing at a pro-bowl level.
Their entire defense was fired up and playing well.

Sullivan NEEDED to get man handled a little bit, and the Browns were the best team in the league for this lesson.
We should have beaten them, and did, and they aren't really a good enough team to hurt us if we make some mistakes.
Too large a talent difference.

That being said, the run a 3-4 and have a nasty nose guard, experience that will come in handy when he has to line up against GOOD 3-4 teams, the Ravens, Steelers and Packers.
It's good that we drew Cleveland first, so that the team gets a weaker taste of what to expect in the future, because if the offense isn't prepared to handle the 3-4, they're going to get smashed, Purple Jesus or not.

Agreed. But old Sully is a beast. I'm not sure I would throw the Packers in there for saying they have a nasty 3-4 yet... They're new to the defense and Raji has a lot to learn.

Sullivan>>Raji... come get some Pack!!!

Ohh yeah,
"because if the offense isn't prepared to handle the 3-4, they're going to get smashed, Purple Jesus or not."
Aronius!!! Aronius on both accounts!!!!! Purple Jesus need not prepare!! He will surely bend the defense like a so called “Beckham” and hit pay dirt ALLLL DAYYYYY long!

"V" wrote:

...
I simply see no reason for Loadholt to block if the man in his zone is already engaged. He maintains his positioning in case of a cut back.

I see what you're saying here, and in a sense there wasn't a real need in that his block isn't make or break on this play.
If someone had gotten out into the defensive backfield and blocked or diverted #24, it could have potentially helped.
But that's not a guaranteed block even if he's out there.

They do the same thing, but Sauce reaches to his man, whereas Herrara gets a chip which helps him block Rogers. We have already agreed that the chip was not great, but good enough, as is Herrera's block. There is no way Herrera can make a great block there without help from Sullivan.

Nah... watch it again.
You'll notice that after his first step, Herrera hesitates.
If he had continued left he could have gotten in front of Rogers, especially since Sullivan gave that little forearm shiver.
It's not the easiest block in the world, but it's not uncommon either.

1. Why would Loadholt block that LB towards the play?
2. The man is already engaged and sealed from the play. No reason to block him at that point, only a bad thing, such as a penalty, would happen.
3. #24 is AD's man to beat, not Loadholt's If the OL has AD taking on DBs like that consistently, it's going to be a very good year.

Not towards the play, but backwards.
And I'm talking about before Sullivan engaged him.
If Loadholt were faster to that point, there was a chance he could take the linebacker first and drive him back.
Again, his block wasn't as important and it would have been tougher for him to make a useful block than other guys.
I don't know if he could have gotten there or not, but he did the same hesitation move as Herrera.


As for blocking #24, it's not necessarily about which man is your responsibility.
It's about performing your assignment and then finding someone to put a hat on.
He kind of looks lost at each level when there's no one there.
In a short time, I expect that hesitation to disappear and he'll just move on and hit someone if there's anyone to hit.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you're imagining his zone as a circle around him or something.
It's more like a hockey stick shaped path that starts left and then veers upfield at an angle until he finds a guy to block.
If someone comes in there and he makes the block he has a chance to help the play.

From what I gather, we are looking at different potential cutback lanes. It seems to me that you think AD would cutback and take it around the edge. That is not what I'm saying.

I'm saying AD would go behind Herrara and between him and Sauce's seal. He has another seal between Loadholt and Dugan on the second level. Am I seeing things or does that look like a legit cutback to you?

I actually was thinking that too.
The outside lane is cutoff by an unblocked defender out there.
The trouble is the inside cutback is hard with Rogers there, and then also with #24 lurking back there.
At the time of the hand-off that you mentioned earlier, Rogers has almost a free path to Adrian.
If AD stops and cuts right, Rogers will almost certainly be on top of him.

Even if he did manage to find his way around Rogers, then that #24 is going to show up again.
He's unaccounted for at this point and has his eyes on AD.
If AD cut back, staying inside, he would fill that hole.
You can actually get a pretty good idea of when he would have been in the cutback lane just by watching when he comes on screen with the wire cam.

AD might beat him, or he might not in that case.
Or if Loadholt has his eye on a swivel and Sullivan can stay engaged as well as Hutch, then maybe Loadholt takes him.
The rest of the blocks were good though and opened up that cutback lane.

Anyways, it's just one play.
I think Loadholt has looked pretty darn good, and Sullivan has been mostly positive.
Herrera has also been a solid player for the Vikes.
But the thing that kicked this whole talk off was blaming Sullivan for that block on Rogers, which I still think more rightly falls with Herrera on this particular play.
Or maybe a combination of the two if you think the combo block is more of a feel thing and Sullivan needs to be more patient, but I don't think that's really a problem here.

Oh, and on that other play that Sullivan got pushed back and AD cut it back, I have to side with V.
That was a pretty decent block, went where he was supposed to.
He got driven back, which isn't ideal.
But he went the right place and stays engaged.
Then he let his running back cut off him.
Rogers is physically stronger than he is, so you can't expect him to drive the guy back a whole bunch.
But he didn't get completely dominated and if you can stay engaged then the RB can run off of you.

"Overlord" wrote:

"V" wrote:

...
I simply see no reason for Loadholt to block if the man in his zone is already engaged. He maintains his positioning in case of a cut back.

I see what you're saying here, and in a sense there wasn't a real need in that his block isn't make or break on this play.
If someone had gotten out into the defensive backfield and blocked or diverted #24, it could have potentially helped.
But that's not a guaranteed block even if he's out there.

They do the same thing, but Sauce reaches to his man, whereas Herrara gets a chip which helps him block Rogers. We have already agreed that the chip was not great, but good enough, as is Herrera's block. There is no way Herrera can make a great block there without help from Sullivan.

Nah... watch it again.
You'll notice that after his first step, Herrera hesitates.
If he had continued left he could have gotten in front of Rogers, especially since Sullivan gave that little forearm shiver.
It's not the easiest block in the world, but it's not uncommon either.

1. Why would Loadholt block that LB towards the play?
2. The man is already engaged and sealed from the play. No reason to block him at that point, only a bad thing, such as a penalty, would happen.
3. #24 is AD's man to beat, not Loadholt's If the OL has AD taking on DBs like that consistently, it's going to be a very good year.

Not towards the play, but backwards.
And I'm talking about before Sullivan engaged him.
If Loadholt were faster to that point, there was a chance he could take the linebacker first and drive him back.
Again, his block wasn't as important and it would have been tougher for him to make a useful block than other guys.
I don't know if he could have gotten there or not, but he did the same hesitation move as Herrera.


As for blocking #24, it's not necessarily about which man is your responsibility.
It's about performing your assignment and then finding someone to put a hat on.
He kind of looks lost at each level when there's no one there.
In a short time, I expect that hesitation to disappear and he'll just move on and hit someone if there's anyone to hit.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you're imagining his zone as a circle around him or something.
It's more like a hockey stick shaped path that starts left and then veers upfield at an angle until he finds a guy to block.
If someone comes in there and he makes the block he has a chance to help the play.

From what I gather, we are looking at different potential cutback lanes. It seems to me that you think AD would cutback and take it around the edge. That is not what I'm saying.

I'm saying AD would go behind Herrara and between him and Sauce's seal. He has another seal between Loadholt and Dugan on the second level. Am I seeing things or does that look like a legit cutback to you?

I actually was thinking that too.
The outside lane is cutoff by an unblocked defender out there.
The trouble is the inside cutback is hard with Rogers there, and then also with #24 lurking back there.
At the time of the hand-off that you mentioned earlier, Rogers has almost a free path to Adrian.
If AD stops and cuts right, Rogers will almost certainly be on top of him.

Even if he did manage to find his way around Rogers, then that #24 is going to show up again.
He's unaccounted for at this point and has his eyes on AD.
If AD cut back, staying inside, he would fill that hole.
You can actually get a pretty good idea of when he would have been in the cutback lane just by watching when he comes on screen with the wire cam.

AD might beat him, or he might not in that case.
Or if Loadholt has his eye on a swivel and Sullivan can stay engaged as well as Hutch, then maybe Loadholt takes him.
The rest of the blocks were good though and opened up that cutback lane.

Anyways, it's just one play.
I think Loadholt has looked pretty darn good, and Sullivan has been mostly positive.
Herrera has also been a solid player for the Vikes.
But the thing that kicked this whole talk off was blaming Sullivan for that block on Rogers, which I still think more rightly falls with Herrera on this particular play.
Or maybe a combination of the two if you think the combo block is more of a feel thing and Sullivan needs to be more patient, but I don't think that's really a problem here.

Oh, and on that other play that Sullivan got pushed back and AD cut it back, I have to side with V.
That was a pretty decent block, went where he was supposed to.
He got driven back, which isn't ideal.
But he went the right place and stays engaged.
Then he let his running back cut off him.
Rogers is physically stronger than he is, so you can't expect him to drive the guy back a whole bunch.
But he didn't get completely dominated and if you can stay engaged then the RB can run off of you.

Thank you both for making a thread finally worth reading.

I just think that since he isn't so strong he needs to work on getting better leverage

All about leverage.. If he gets beat off the snap like he was and not getting leverage he will get pushed back all game like he did last time

I understand sticking up for him since it was his first start.. But it was a shitty start regardless