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  1. #11
    Caine's Avatar
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    I'm not real high on Ponder. I don't think he showed us a whole lot last season....I also don't judge him too harshly because it was his Rookie year.

    This year, IMO, will show us the foundation he has. We should start getting glimpses of what he's capable of. The trick for Ponder will be to turn positive glimpses into consistent realities - something previous project QB's here have failed to do.

    I think that he is hamstrung by the same problems that hamstrung Jackson, however. We have a crap coaching system, crap FO, and no WR talent outside of Harvin. Having Kalil, IMO, will NOT help Ponder one bit as regardless of who is at LT, he still has no one to throw to...unless our KAO II will consist of chip shots to TE's and RB's out of the backfield...in which case Kluwe better be working out hard.

    I was one of the ones who advocated going after RGIII. I'm not convinced Ponder can succeed. Once that door closed, I advocated going after quality WR's to give Ponder a fighting chance....they didn't. Instead, they got a LT who won't appreciably help the Offense, and then focused on a defensive secondary that would have been better served by going after pass rushers and quality LB's.

    I don't see good things on the horizon.

    Caine

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Apparently to some, our OL, WR corp, play calling, & OCing didn't start sucking until after the 2010 season.
    People don't seem to remember a certain QB having to constantly change the plays and getting into arguments on the sideline with Chilly about under-utilizing Sidney Rice.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Wasn't happy where we drafted him.
    Was worried that he cannot shake the injury bug. Proved me right. He has not had major career threatening injuries in 3 straight years.
    I don't understand this last point. Are you saying that he did or didn't have a major injury injury last year? If you are saying he did, what injury was that. If you are saying that he didn't, how is that proving that he can't shake the injury bug?
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I'm not real high on Ponder. I don't think he showed us a whole lot last season....I also don't judge him too harshly because it was his Rookie year.

    This year, IMO, will show us the foundation he has. We should start getting glimpses of what he's capable of. The trick for Ponder will be to turn positive glimpses into consistent realities - something previous project QB's here have failed to do.

    I think that he is hamstrung by the same problems that hamstrung Jackson, however. We have a crap coaching system, crap FO, and no WR talent outside of Harvin. Having Kalil, IMO, will NOT help Ponder one bit as regardless of who is at LT, he still has no one to throw to...unless our KAO II will consist of chip shots to TE's and RB's out of the backfield...in which case Kluwe better be working out hard.

    I was one of the ones who advocated going after RGIII. I'm not convinced Ponder can succeed. Once that door closed, I advocated going after quality WR's to give Ponder a fighting chance....they didn't. Instead, they got a LT who won't appreciably help the Offense, and then focused on a defensive secondary that would have been better served by going after pass rushers and quality LB's.

    I don't see good things on the horizon.

    Caine
    I don't really disagree with the first three paragraphs. I do tend to think though that having Kalil will appreciably help the offense. It doesn't matter if we have RGIII, Ponder, or Aaron Rogers under center, if they are running for their lives they can't succeed. It is a moot argument though. You do make very good points, and I agree that Ponder will be hampered by his WR corp, so I don't see him having a ton of success this year... which will invariably lead to the arguments about why he is struggling...

    Regarding the defense - I respectfully disagree. Our secondary, specifically the safety position was one of the absolute worst I have seen in many years. Sanford was a liability. Go back and watch game highlights from last year. EVERY time that there is a missed play or bad tackle that turns into a huge gain for the opponents, watch and you will see #33 in the frame somewhere. Seriously, he was involved in probably 75% of the huge plays by the other team. I noticed it over the summer when I was reviewing highlight, and at first it was funny how often I would see his number. And then it became sad... We could have had the best pass rusher in the league last year and it wouldn't have helped our secondary (oh wait... we did...).
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I'm not real high on Ponder. I don't think he showed us a whole lot last season....I also don't judge him too harshly because it was his Rookie year.

    This year, IMO, will show us the foundation he has. We should start getting glimpses of what he's capable of. The trick for Ponder will be to turn positive glimpses into consistent realities - something previous project QB's here have failed to do.

    I think that he is hamstrung by the same problems that hamstrung Jackson, however. We have a crap coaching system, crap FO, and no WR talent outside of Harvin. Having Kalil, IMO, will NOT help Ponder one bit as regardless of who is at LT, he still has no one to throw to...unless our KAO II will consist of chip shots to TE's and RB's out of the backfield...in which case Kluwe better be working out hard.

    I was one of the ones who advocated going after RGIII. I'm not convinced Ponder can succeed. Once that door closed, I advocated going after quality WR's to give Ponder a fighting chance....they didn't. Instead, they got a LT who won't appreciably help the Offense, and then focused on a defensive secondary that would have been better served by going after pass rushers and quality LB's.

    I don't see good things on the horizon.

    Caine

    I agree with a lot of what you are saying Caine, but do you think there was ANYONE we could have drafted who would have put us in contention for the division this year? I do not think that was even remotely possible. We have a long ways to go, and this is just the first step. Kalil should be here for many years helping to solidify our oline. He is not a short term answer to our offensive woes but a long term help. I was scratching my head on some of our picks also, but all I can do is hope they got it right.
    There will be good receivers available next year and we should again be in a position to pick up someone to help our team. Maybe not as high a pickas this year, but probably still a relatively high pick. We may even need a third draft to get where we need to go, but hopefully we will be in a far better cap situation in a couple of years and won't have to rely solely on the draft to build the team. I do not know if that can be done.

    Of course, this all depends on how well we evaluate and develop the talent we acquire.
    I am hopeful we are on the right path.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    We could have had the best pass rusher in the league last year and it wouldn't have helped our secondary (oh wait... we did...).
    This.

    I will admit that I was calling for Sanford to start last year. Oh well.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    The addition of Kalil will go a long way in answering this question, but I think Ponder will be fine.

    Don't think he'll ever be an elite talent, and he may only make it to one or two pro-bowls in his career, but he'll be good. I said this in another thread, but I think his playing style is very similar to Jeff Garcia.

    I think Garcia is a very good comparison. I also will be thrilled if Ponder is a one or two Pro Bowls type player.

    I am not ready to throw him under the bus, but I don't know if he can churn out a couple Pro Bowls. He is (on paper at least) smarter than Garcia and won't take the same risks that Garcia sometimes would take. But Garcia got away with those risks because he had a better arm than Ponder. Ponder's arm on the comebacks and out routes definitely concerned me last year.

    I think he could be our guy ... and I definitely liked plenty of what I saw from him. Kalil should help a ton. If CP still struggles mightily with an improved line and what should be at least a slightly improved WR corps ... then I will start to wonder if we already need to look in a different direction.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I don't understand this last point. Are you saying that he did or didn't have a major injury injury last year? If you are saying he did, what injury was that. If you are saying that he didn't, how is that proving that he can't shake the injury bug?
    Sorry that should be NOW...not the word NOT.
    He had back to back issues with his throwing arm and a concussion last season(ignoring the hip pointer)

  9. #19
    Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshallvike View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you are saying Caine, but do you think there was ANYONE we could have drafted who would have put us in contention for the division this year? I do not think that was even remotely possible. We have a long ways to go, and this is just the first step. Kalil should be here for many years helping to solidify our oline. He is not a short term answer to our offensive woes but a long term help. I was scratching my head on some of our picks also, but all I can do is hope they got it right.
    There will be good receivers available next year and we should again be in a position to pick up someone to help our team. Maybe not as high a pickas this year, but probably still a relatively high pick. We may even need a third draft to get where we need to go, but hopefully we will be in a far better cap situation in a couple of years and won't have to rely solely on the draft to build the team. I do not know if that can be done.

    Of course, this all depends on how well we evaluate and develop the talent we acquire.
    I am hopeful we are on the right path.
    Here's the trouble - a I stated before in several threads - I don't buy into the notion that an Elite LT is a neccessity. Further, I happen to believe that an Elite LT simply absorbs cap sapce.

    Look at the top teams in the League....who are their LT's? Most people can't name one of them.

    Now, name the top LT's in the League. Who do they play for? The top 2 guys, Jake Long and Joe Thomas play for Miami and Cleveland....both of whom suck bag.

    Ryan Clady - Denver
    Jordan Gross - Carolina
    D'brickashaw Ferguson - Jets
    Michael Roos - Titans
    Jason Peters - Eagles
    and on and on

    Power Rankings: Top 10 left tackles - NFC South Blog - ESPN

    Yet the last Superbowl winning teams don't have these ELITE LT's on their rosters. The Giants, Steelers, Saints, and Cardinals all managed to win Superbowls WITHOUT an "Elite LT".

    I happen to believe that some talking-head during a game broadcast put the "You need a great LT to protect your QB" myth out there, and everyone sort of went, "well....I suppose that makes sense" and made it gospel. Trouble is, the FACTS don't add up that way. The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that you simply need a SOLID LT to buy you the 3-5 seconds that every QB needs to trigger a play.

    Now, assuming we're still on the same page, what happens when you DO have an Elite LT....but you have NO RECEIVERS?

    How long is Kalil supposed to hold the edge? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? 3 minutes? When no one is getting open, and Ponder has nowhere to go with the ball anyway, it doesn't much matter how good his protection is.

    The bottom line, for me, is that we needed WR's a HELL of a lot more than we needed an Elite LT. We wound up with the latest High School to NFL feel-good story...but not a lot of prospects.

    Fact is, had we loaded up on receivers, Ponder wouldn't have been getting killed any more than Aaron Rodgers is. And Rodgers got killed all the way to a Superbowl.

    Caine

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Here's the trouble - a I stated before in several threads - I don't buy into the notion that an Elite LT is a neccessity. Further, I happen to believe that an Elite LT simply absorbs cap sapce.

    Look at the top teams in the League....who are their LT's? Most people can't name one of them.

    Now, name the top LT's in the League. Who do they play for? The top 2 guys, Jake Long and Joe Thomas play for Miami and Cleveland....both of whom suck bag.

    Ryan Clady - Denver
    Jordan Gross - Carolina
    D'brickashaw Ferguson - Jets
    Michael Roos - Titans
    Jason Peters - Eagles
    and on and on

    Power Rankings: Top 10 left tackles - NFC South Blog - ESPN

    Yet the last Superbowl winning teams don't have these ELITE LT's on their rosters. The Giants, Steelers, Saints, and Cardinals all managed to win Superbowls WITHOUT an "Elite LT".

    I happen to believe that some talking-head during a game broadcast put the "You need a great LT to protect your QB" myth out there, and everyone sort of went, "well....I suppose that makes sense" and made it gospel. Trouble is, the FACTS don't add up that way. The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that you simply need a SOLID LT to buy you the 3-5 seconds that every QB needs to trigger a play.

    Now, assuming we're still on the same page, what happens when you DO have an Elite LT....but you have NO RECEIVERS?

    How long is Kalil supposed to hold the edge? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? 3 minutes? When no one is getting open, and Ponder has nowhere to go with the ball anyway, it doesn't much matter how good his protection is.

    The bottom line, for me, is that we needed WR's a HELL of a lot more than we needed an Elite LT. We wound up with the latest High School to NFL feel-good story...but not a lot of prospects.

    Fact is, had we loaded up on receivers, Ponder wouldn't have been getting killed any more than Aaron Rodgers is. And Rodgers got killed all the way to a Superbowl.

    Caine
    You must have been sold on blackmon.. I wasnt. If a calvin johnson/ larry fitz type player was in the draft this year i would be all in to improve our WR but when you can take one position group and turn it from terrible to good I think you take it. Our OL was near the league worst and with kalil it got decent, plus he was the bpa. I dont think nobody thinks we need a LT to succeed but we need OL period and kalil happens to be the player.

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