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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    1. McKinnie...ok so is he a starter or not? He's starting... he's a starter.
    2. Justin Smith:
    55 tacks 8.5 sacks (2nd for rookies)
    61 tacks 6.5 sacks ( led team in sacks)
    60 tacks 5 sacks (moved to OLB had 5 sacks)
    71 tacks 8 sacks ( led team in tacks and sacks)
    81 tacks 5 sacks ( led team)
    Last year in Cincy 78 tacks 2.0 sacks. ( led team in assisted tackles)
    Franchised tagged.

    He has averaged almost exactly what he did in cincy. The issue sis, he is playing on a good team now and is getting media shine time. Cincy in 2003 was a deadzone. The guy hasn't changed and that is why after his last season he was PURSUED by more than a handful of teams including the Vikings. He was the

    Rogers...
    I can show you the stats but they say the same damn thing.
    His stats in San Fran are almost identical to his stats here.
    Last year he had 6 but he played against TJack 2X, A struggling Bradford 2X, and the flop that is Kolb 2X. This year he went back to 1 int. He is what he is; a damn good cover guy that has difficulty catching the ball. Your problem is that you look soley at 1 stat....want to know if a guy is playing well at Cb... look at his PD. That is a true gauge, not ints. 24 passes defended in a season. I don't care how much you are targeted, that's outstanding pass breakups. He also always helped WAS in being a top 10 defense in an explosive division. The guy is consistently great but lacks the big name.



    Alex Boone was not drafted, he was a FA signing after the draft. Look it up.
    I also included the 3rd WR in Ginn as they use him more than they do a FB. Their base formation Slot left out of the Single back formation.
    Defensively I have already said that 1/3 DL 1/4 LBs and 2/4 of their Core are FA. Thats puts us at 14 out of 22 or 7:11 for the 49ers. I'm trying to get you to understand that teams tend to draft about 7 players every year...so yes the draft is important but dumpster diving in FA like we have been doing is a disaster. Good teams go out and sign Key players in FA. Hence, FA is as important as the draft. You can't build a good team without being excellent at both.




    Nice way to skew the numbers. 100% of their passing yards? Really? 97% of their rushing yards?

    Baltimore, who led the team in receiving regular season yards? Who is leading in the playoffs. Who led in receptions? Who led in tds?
    Who led in picks? Their two starting corners are FAs. I can go thru and point out the production on both sides like saying 100% of divisional round game tying catches were made made by Free Agents...but its a waste of time. Again, teams have more drafted players on their rosters because of the number of draft picks allotted each year. So you will see a larger percentage of any one stat belonging to drafted players. However, FAs are just as integral in moving the train.



    Solid contributors huh? You mean the starting Center and WR... of ok!
    The DE that everyone says is the heart and soul of the 49ers? Those teams are in the superbowl because they are good teams that draft well and sign key players are huge areas of needs. Needed a lock down corner after Clements flooped, Rogers got signed. Needed a top flight pass rushing DE, smith got signed. Both teams had big issues but over came them by Signing key guys. You dismissal of Boldin as just a guy (JAG) is insulting. The guy is a premier WR, who will never get the fame he deserves. He recorded 1377 as a rookie. and trived despite Fitz getting to AZ. Runs all they routes and is FEARED by Dbs for his toughness and hands. He's better than anyone we have including Harvin.
    How are numbers skewed? They are simply FACT. Those percentages are the FULL season ... nothing to skew there.

    I have not argued at all that FAs are not important ... they clearly are. Trying to skew Justin Smith's numbers in Cincinnati as anything other than an average DE is ludicrous ... which is why we should just stop here. Bengals fans, media, front office, etc. were all upset by his lack of production there because they knew he was talented and he UNDERPERFORMED in the 4-3. He was not excessively sought after in free agency, because people knew he struggled in the 4-3 and nobody seemed ready to move him to the inside. Despite this, he was still one of the better DEs available that year so he got a good deal and most thought the 49ers overpaid for him. They clearly hit gold and found something special by moving him inside where he became an All-Pro.

    Calling Rogers time in Washington great is absolutely unreal to me. He has always been a good tackler and an underwhelming cover guy. He AVERAGED 12.7 pass defenses a year, way to pull ONE season and then accuse me of skewing. He happen to get a bunch of Int's in SF which got him a nice contract. But even then, he did not get big CB money (only $7.2m per year) because teams do not think he is a big time corner, as evidenced by one pro bowl in 8 years in the league. And he certainly did not ALWAYS keep Washington in the top ten in the league as they were 31st TWICE in his time there. 31st. They averaged being 16th in the league while he was there.

    Taking Boone and calling him a "free agent" when he never got a look from anywhere else is being opportunistic, but whatever, that is fine. Taking Ginn and calling him a "starter" when he has ONE receiving yard all year is fucking laughable, but all right. I mean, you called McKinnie a "starter" because of injuries, but taking Ginn and his two receptions pretty much makes you look like Corky. Still 27 of 44 starters from the draft ... and like I said ... that is giving you Ginn and his TWO catches and Boone as someone who came from somewhere else.

    Calling the YEARLONG numbers being SKEWED is crazy. They are the numbers. That is fact. Even with Boldin's greatness of never getting 1,000 yards in Baltimore, the Ravens still rely more on DRAFTED players in the passing game than on Boldin. Calling Boldin better than Harvin is also laughable. He may have been at one point, he certainly is not now.

    By the way ... keep calling Justin Smith a DE ... that makes you look good. Like someone who clearly watches the games.

    I will say it for the umpteenth time ... you will continue to respond and look like a fool. It is OBVIOUS to anyone that free agency is important. It helps fill vital spots and it definitely played a role in these two teams getting to the Super Bowl. BUT ... saying these two teams did not build through the draft and that "building through the draft is a myth" is nothing short of completely laughable.

    EDIT: By the way ... it is completely hilarious that you use stats to try and prove your point, but when I do the same thing, they are skewed. Convenient.
    Last edited by midgensa; 01-26-2013 at 10:18 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
    He had a down and down first year as the Viking starter. We're actually pretty blessed, following this logic, as we have a pair of starting quarterbacks, four or five starting receivers, four or so starting safeties...hell, our depth is great. Most teams can barely field a starter with a backup on the bench.
    Don't forget Marvin Mitchell at LB. He started 1 game for us so he should be counted as a starter too.

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Numbers vs. Opinions
    I'll stick to numbers!
    Unless they're someone else's numbers. Then they are skewed and an opinion. You will stick to your numbers. Like how important Ted Ginn and his TWO catches for ONE yard are to the 49ers.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Don't forget Marvin Mitchell at LB. He started 1 game for us so he should be counted as a starter too.
    I am pretty sure if he got one more start that puts him in the Ring of Honor.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    By the way, the reason Mckinnie is a starter is because Jah Reid is back from his injury but is still not starting!!! Like I said, if you don't watch the games....you wouldn't know.
    Jah Reid was placed on IR 2 weeks ago, making him ineligible to play. That meant the Ravens had to do some shuffling. Oher was moved to RT which is his natural spot leaving McKinnie as the only LT on the depth chart to fill the void.

    I thought you watched the games? If you did, you'd know Reid was on IR.

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
    I am pretty sure if he got one more start that puts him in the Ring of Honor.
    Or the 8th Viking to make the Pro Bowl.

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
    How are numbers skewed? They are simply FACT. Those percentages are the FULL season ... nothing to skew there.

    I have not argued at all that FAs are not important ... they clearly are. Trying to skew Justin Smith's numbers in Cincinnati as anything other than an average DE is ludicrous ... which is why we should just stop here. Bengals fans, media, front office, etc. were all upset by his lack of production there because they knew he was talented and he UNDERPERFORMED. He was not excessively sought after in free agency, but was one of the better DEs available that year so he got a good deal and most thought the 49ers overpaid for him. They clearly hit gold and found something special by moving him inside where he became an All-Pro.

    Calling Rogers time in Washington great is absolutely unreal to me. He has always been a good tackler and an underwhelming cover guy. He AVERAGED 12.7 pass defenses a year, way to pull ONE season and then accuse me of skewing. He happen to get a bunch of Int's in SF which got him a nice contract. But even then, he did not get big CB money (only $7.2m per year) because teams do not think he is a big time corner, as evidenced by one pro bowl in 8 years in the league. And he certainly did not ALWAYS keep Washington in the top ten in the league as they were 31st TWICE in his time there. 31st. They averaged being 16th in the league while he was there.

    Taking Boone and calling him a "free agent" when he never got a look from anywhere else is being opportunistic, but whatever, that is fine. Taking Ginn and calling him a "starter" when he has ONE receiving yard all year is fucking laughable, but all right. I mean, you called McKinnie a "starter" because of injuries, but taking Ginn and his two receptions pretty much makes you look like Corky. Still 27 of 44 starters from the draft ... and like I said ... that is giving you Ginn and his TWO catches and Boone as someone who came from somewhere else.

    Calling the YEARLONG numbers being SKEWED is crazy. They are the numbers. That is fact. Even with Boldin's greatness of never getting 1,000 yards in Baltimore, the Ravens still rely more on DRAFTED players in the passing game than on Boldin. Calling Boldin better than Harvin is also laughable. He may have been at one point, he certainly is not now.

    By the way ... keep calling Justin Smith a DE ... that makes you look good. Like someone who clearly watches the games.

    I will say it for the umpteenth time ... you will continue to respond and look like a fool. It is OBVIOUS to anyone that free agency is important. It helps fill vital spots and it definitely played a role in these two teams getting to the Super Bowl. BUT ... saying these two teams did not build through the draft and that "building through the draft is a myth" is nothing short of completely laughable.

    EDIT: By the way ... it is completely hilarious that you use stats to try and prove your point, but when I do the same thing, they are skewed. Convenient.
    Smith is a DE...they move him around and he plays all the positions, as I pointed out he even spent some time at LB but his natural position is DE. so please try again.

    The year Washington was 31st was a move to the Damn 3-4. I am sorry that I chose to ignore that season. When transitioning to from 1 defense to the other.... clearly there is some flux.

    The thing both of these players had in the league was buzz about their play. However, they clearly lacked the name.

    You can argue all you want but as I have shown you...
    Smith on the 49ers, is doing the same exact thing that he did in Cincy.
    The same exact stats!!!! So isn't he under performing now? LOCKING AT SACKS AS THE ONLY MEASURE OF A DE SHOWS, ME THAT I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE WASTING MY TIME. What Smith is doing in the San Fran that he didn't do in Cincy is that his hurries and pressure is allowing his talented teammates to look even better. All the double teams and broken pockets( on crashes and at DT) allows the OLBs to clean up sacks and big hits. When they were a 4-3 he looked even better.

    Can you find a CB on the Vikings that has averaged 12 passes defensed in their career.?
    Winfield has only been over 12 once. Cook has 5 as a high. Griffen averages 8 for a career.
    By the way the great Revis is averaging 16 for his career. He is no Revis (clearly) but the guy can cover and disrupt plays. He drops easy ints which people think is the only measure of a CB. LOOKING AT INTS AS THE ONLY MEASURE OF A CB, SHOWS ME THAT I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE WASTING MY TIME.

    As for skewing the numbers, I explained already that I can provide you numbers that show any player to be important (i.e. 100% of Divisional game saving throws all went to FAs) What you can't argue is who lead that team in targets, catches, yards and Tds. You can't argue who lead the team in ints and pass defenses. You dismiss players that the teams see as intergral
    (49ers Brooks who signed a 6-year, $44.5 million to stay in San Fran) to it's success.
    Honestly, I have said everything I needed to say. Its a case of you not reading the original statement and arguing something completely different. I'm done.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Can you find a CB on the Vikings that has averaged 12 passes defensed in their career.?
    Winfield had 12 PD just this past season alone, 12 in 2003, 14 in 2006, 14 in & 116 in his career.

    That's an average of 116 Passes Defensed per career.

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Winfield had 12 PD just this past season alone, 12 in 2003, 14 in 2006, 14 in & 116 in his career.

    That's an average of 116 Passes Defensed per career.
    In his case PD means passively defensed.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    By the way, the reason Mckinnie is a starter is because Jah Reid is back from his injury but is still not starting!!! Like I said, if you don't watch the games....you wouldn't know.
    I live in NOVA. I catch more than my fair share of 'skins and Ravens games.

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