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  1. #11
    Ltrey33 is offline Jersey Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Well, that wasn't only because of Kalil. A large number of his yards went away from him and he could have had just as many with Birk and Mckinney on the OL and we could have used the picks we used to replace them on WR's and other players
    Letting Birk go was a mistake. I thought so when it happened and I still think so today. Sullivan has done a nice job, but he's still a few years away from moving out of Birk's shadow.

    That said, I will take Kalil over McKinnie any day of the week. To say that McKinnie should still be on this team lacks any sense of historical consciousness. The fact of the matter is, he showed up way out of shape multiple times and, it seemed, was generally disinterested in making himself better. Frasier chose to use McKinnie to send a message that the culture was changing and that he wasn't going to take that kind of crap. Heck, even AFTER he was re-signed McKinnie showed up fat and out of shape to Ravens camp. I still say good riddance to him.

  2. #12
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    You have to build both thru FA & the draft & once you have your competitive team, you should maintain & improve it via the draft & acquire FA as necessary depending on how many players you lose & who you lose.

    If you try to build solely thru the draft & land a couple of good players every year, it will take 11 years to build that team with solid starters & that's only if you don't lose anyone to FA. Owners won't stand for a mediocre team for a better part of that 11 years, plus the better your team becomes, the later you pick in the draft.

    If your rebuilding a team with essentially the same coaching staff to replace aged players, then you failed to find talented replacement players for your aging veterans thru several years of the draft &/or failed to keep the decent younger players you had drafted during that time.
    Last edited by singersp; 01-22-2013 at 06:11 AM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltrey33 View Post
    That said, I will take Kalil over McKinnie any day of the week. To say that McKinnie should still be on this team lacks any sense of historical consciousness. The fact of the matter is, he showed up way out of shape multiple times and, it seemed, was generally disinterested in making himself better. Heck, even AFTER he was re-signed McKinnie showed up fat.
    I have plenty of historical consciousness. If you read my last line I clearly stated that the difference is that their front office and coaches knew how to get him to respond and fall in line while ours didn't and decided to cut him outright instead of figuring out how to make him happy or at least productive like the Ravens staff did.
    Would you also rather have had Charlie Johnson last year than McKinney? If so, see the historical consciousness thing. As far as Kalil, my guess is would prefer any
    Player available over who we had. I would certainly take Claiborne over any CB we had on the field at the end of the previous season and would take Blackmon over any WR on the team too that he would have replaced.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    I have plenty of historical consciousness. If you read my last line I clearly stated that the difference is that their front office and coaches knew how to get him to respond and fall in line while ours didn't and decided to cut him outright instead of figuring out how to make him happy or at least productive like the Ravens staff did.
    Would you also rather have had Charlie Johnson last year than McKinney? If so, see the historical consciousness thing. As far as Kalil, my guess is would prefer any
    Player available over who we had. I would certainly take Claiborne over any CB we had on the field at the end of the previous season and would take Blackmon over any WR on the team too that he would have replaced.
    To be fair, I think it took McKinney getting cut for him to see the light and start being productive again. I don't think that any staff could have had success with him prior to that.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Just wanted to point out that building the theory of building through the draft only is a myth. To be a successful team, you have to build with balance. It takes a combination of hits in FA and drafting to be able to field a competitive team. Don't believe me, look at the two teams that are fighting for the Superbowl.
    B'more and 49ers. They drafted a solid OL but supplemented it with WRs from other teams.

    49ers
    Signed: Manningham, Moss, Ginn
    Drafted: Crabtree and Davis

    Look at their Defense
    Drafted Willis, Bowman
    Signed: Rodgers, Justin Smith

    B'More
    They could draft defensive talent for days but were always unable to draft a WR corps. What did they do? They went out and signed 2 of their top 3 WRs from other teams in Boldin, and Jones. There starting LT is our cast off as well as their starting Center. They also went out and signed the best FB to block for their RB.

    My point in all of this is that more and more people are falling into this spell in believing that the draft is the only way to build a team, when in fact it takes balance and luck to create a winner. Our FO seems to be trying to draft a team and supplement it with scraps when it takes making a major investment in FA here or there.
    The Ravens drafted three defensive players of the year (Reed, Lewis, Suggs) and one who easily could have been (Ngata). The Ravens drafted Rice, Flacco, and Webb.

    The free agency period augmented a strong core built through the draft.

    The 49ers drafted Alex Smith, Gore, Kaepernick, Aldon Smith, and those mikes you mentioned. Again, the core of the team was drafted, the free agents augmented the team.

    If you try to create a team via free agency, you wind up with the dream team Eagles or the decade long failure that was the Redskins...until they started drafting good players.

  6. #16
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    To further clarify, I don't believe that there is a belief that you build a team only through the draft. I think that people mean that you should build the core of your team through the draft, and then add key pieces when available through free agency. Claiming that people completely disregard the need for the occasional free agent acquisition in lieu of "building through the draft" is a straw man.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
    To further clarify, I don't believe that there is a belief that you build a team only through the draft. I think that people mean that you should build the core of your team through the draft, and then add key pieces when available through free agency. Claiming that people completely disregard the need for the occasional free agent acquisition in lieu of "building through the draft" is a straw man.
    What would you call what we have been doing lately?
    I'm not saying that anyone believes that you don't sign 1 free agent. What I am saying is the belief that the draft is a cure all for a team is silly. The names you added are correct, what you neglect however was to address my point that both teams have players great talents at each level of their defenses that were not drafted but signed a key Free agents. For every player you named I can name a big name FA signing that helped the team just as much.

    B'More..
    Rice - Leech
    Oher - McK, Birk
    Smith - Boldin, Jones

    I say a core just as big was added from FA.
    2/5ths of the Oline
    2/3rds of the Starting WRs.
    1/2 of your backfield.

    Care to do the 49ers.. cause that's even worst. We can do the Pats and Flacons if you want.
    All I am saying is a team that forgets FA is typically as lost.

  8. #18
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    To be successful, you need to build through the draft, and supplement your draft with a couple FA players who suit your needs.

    Look at the Ravens. They draft their core players. Flacco, Rice, Smith, Dickson, and their Defense.

    THey signed some low-key but productive players like Leach. And over the course of 3-4 years they signed a couple good players like Birk and Boldin. THey took a risk on McKinnie, and almost cut him until he pulled his head out of his ass. They are mostly a drafted team, or a team acquired over the course of the past 7 years or so.

    The 49ers are even more draft-based than the Ravens.
    On defense, they drafted:
    Sopoaga
    Francois
    MacDonald
    Brown
    Willis
    Bowman
    Goldson


    In fact, the only guys they didn't draft were:
    Carlos Rogers
    Amad Brooks
    Donte Whitner
    Aldon Smith


    You can't win if you can't draft well.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    To be successful, you need to build through the draft, and supplement your draft with a couple FA players who suit your needs.

    Look at the Ravens. They draft their core players. Flacco, Rice, Smith, Dickson, and their Defense.

    THey signed some low-key but productive players like Leach. And over the course of 3-4 years they signed a couple good players like Birk and Boldin. THey took a risk on McKinnie, and almost cut him until he pulled his head out of his ass. They are mostly a drafted team, or a team acquired over the course of the past 7 years or so.

    The 49ers are even more draft-based than the Ravens.
    On defense, they drafted:
    Sopoaga
    Francois
    MacDonald
    Brown
    Willis
    Bowman
    Goldson


    In fact, the only guys they didn't draft were:
    Carlos Rogers
    Amad Brooks
    Donte Whitner
    Aldon Smith
    You can't win if you can't draft well.
    Justin Smith!
    You forgot almost their entire starting offense and 3/4ths of their WR core
    Moss, Manningham, Ginn.

    So let me get this straight.
    2/4 starting Dbs
    2/4 Starting LBs
    1/3 of their DL
    But you think the core was strictly drafted.

    On offense it's a little better with
    3/4ths of their WRs
    2/5th of the oline

    But by my count that's 10 out of 22 or almost 1/2 of the starters on the team.
    #FunnyMath

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    To be fair, I think it took McKinney getting cut for him to see the light and start being productive again. I don't think that any staff could have had success with him prior to that.
    Conjecture.

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