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  1. #71
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091577
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1091576
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091560
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1091542
    ...New England, not so much without Moss. I honestly don't think we have the people to do it...at any position.

    Cain
    Their offense got better when Moss left. Not sure what you mean by this.
    Their Offense statistically stayed almost exactly the same without Moss. Not sure how you think it got "better".

    Their completion percentage dropped about 6%, but they threw more and threw for more yards. Brady got sacked more - and for more yards - but they scored about the same number of TD's through the air.

    I know you don't like Moss, but the statistics simply don't support your contentions. New England may have gained by subtraction - but it wasn't manifested on the field. And He DID elevate our passing game (As I showed months back) while he was here.
    I have more Moss jersey's than any other player (other than K-dubb), so don't try to spin this that I am just hacking on Moss just cause he let me down last year.

    My discussion point was centered around the fact that the Pats completely overhauled their offense last year from a deep ball, to a dink dunk offense, and that overhaul happened during the year.
    That isn't what you said. You said their offense got better, and you said it in direct opposition to MY point that they didn't run the spread after he left.

    Had you said they changed their offense in response to losing Moss...well...I would have called you redundant because that's what I said.

    And I'm confused as to how he could have let you down last year. He didn't say, "Hey, Chiller...would you mind misusing me for a few games and then cutting me?"...Chiller screwed that pooch.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091577
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1091576
    But my POINT was that without the battery of receivers, even elite teams with elite QB's like Brady don't play spread offense much. The spread relies too much on having 3-4 quality receivers to force the defense to account for them. Once Moss was gone in New England, the spread had to wait for Branch to come up to speed.

    Caine
    This I can agree with, with one small point. Brady can read defenses. He doesn't need to spread them out to read were the blitz is coming from. Truth of the matter is, teams with good QB's, don't see as much blitzing as teams without.

    Which gets back to my main point. If you want to beat the best defenses (in this case we seem to want to talk 3-4) you run at them, not pass.
    Yet, again, Green Bay ran a spread offense and almost never ran and managed to win a Superbowl against one of the Elite 3-4 teams in the League.

    Further, I showed earlier that the teams most successful against the run are 3-4, by and large.

    Pittsburgh, New York Jets, San Diego, and Baltimore were 4 of the top 5 versus the run. The only 4-3 team in the top 5 was Chicago.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091577
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1091576
    And He DID elevate our passing game (As I showed months back) while he was here
    I broke it down as well and no it didn't.
    Then I suggest you re-break it down, because he did. You also made a claim about Moss affecting Peterson's carries (which wasn't true).

    With Randy here, we threw fewer times per game, for more yardage than prior to his arrival, and scored more TD's through the air (twice as many).

    Hmmmm...more productivity with fewer attempts? Sounds like an IMPROVEMENT to me...

    Further, our INT rate went down when Randy was here.

    Again, you may want to reassess your "break down".

    Caine

  2. #72
    jessejames09's Avatar
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091562
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091544
    How about the fact that forcing teams like the steelers and the ravens to a nickel or dime also makes their defense a little bit weaker. Both those D's are stacked. If we can get them out of their base, and get a pretty skilled pass rusher or LB off the field in place for a 3rd or 4th CB I already feel like we have the edge.

    When the pats tore us apart a few years ago they didn't target Winfield or Cedric, it was Whittaker or McCauley or whoever our stop gap DB was at that point in time. Pretty sure it was Whittaker though.

    While no team is as bad off at corner as we were a few years ago, not many teams have a nickel and dime that are near the caliber of player a starter needs to be.
    But doesn't all that mean they aren't in the 3-4 anymore?

    Again, my comments are based moslty on them being in their base defense. You run out more WR's and they are now in the nickle, again, a defense designed to stop the pass.
    That was the point. There was already talk about spreading them out. I just elaborated.

    Why feature an I formation or 2 TE set against teams like the ravens, steelers and jets? Thats a recipe for a loss. The best teams in the league are prepared to go 3, 4, and 5 wide all game long, if need be. If the team decides to stay in their base, there's going to be a LB on WR somewhere.

  3. #73
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091626
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091562
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091544
    How about the fact that forcing teams like the steelers and the ravens to a nickel or dime also makes their defense a little bit weaker. Both those D's are stacked. If we can get them out of their base, and get a pretty skilled pass rusher or LB off the field in place for a 3rd or 4th CB I already feel like we have the edge.

    When the pats tore us apart a few years ago they didn't target Winfield or Cedric, it was Whittaker or McCauley or whoever our stop gap DB was at that point in time. Pretty sure it was Whittaker though.

    While no team is as bad off at corner as we were a few years ago, not many teams have a nickel and dime that are near the caliber of player a starter needs to be.
    But doesn't all that mean they aren't in the 3-4 anymore?

    Again, my comments are based moslty on them being in their base defense. You run out more WR's and they are now in the nickle, again, a defense designed to stop the pass.
    That was the point. There was already talk about spreading them out. I just elaborated.

    Why feature an I formation or 2 TE set against teams like the ravens, steelers and jets? Thats a recipe for a loss. The best teams in the league are prepared to go 3, 4, and 5 wide all game long, if need be. If the team decides to stay in their base, there's going to be a LB on WR somewhere.

    I think the reason for that was because we are not one of the best teams in the league at this point and we would not scare anyone with our 4th or 5th WR and we don't even know who the 1 and 3 will be at this point. All we have right now is a slot guy in Harvin who is still having migraine issues plus we have no QB to get him the ball yet.

    That is why my stance is that you take the best you got and go at them with that and right now we have 2 TE's and could probably conjure up 1 WR. Other than that I am not sure how we are going to make anyone nervous trying to spread the defense out.

  4. #74
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1091627
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091626
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091562
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091544
    How about the fact that forcing teams like the steelers and the ravens to a nickel or dime also makes their defense a little bit weaker. Both those D's are stacked. If we can get them out of their base, and get a pretty skilled pass rusher or LB off the field in place for a 3rd or 4th CB I already feel like we have the edge.

    When the pats tore us apart a few years ago they didn't target Winfield or Cedric, it was Whittaker or McCauley or whoever our stop gap DB was at that point in time. Pretty sure it was Whittaker though.

    While no team is as bad off at corner as we were a few years ago, not many teams have a nickel and dime that are near the caliber of player a starter needs to be.
    But doesn't all that mean they aren't in the 3-4 anymore?

    Again, my comments are based moslty on them being in their base defense. You run out more WR's and they are now in the nickle, again, a defense designed to stop the pass.
    That was the point. There was already talk about spreading them out. I just elaborated.

    Why feature an I formation or 2 TE set against teams like the ravens, steelers and jets? Thats a recipe for a loss. The best teams in the league are prepared to go 3, 4, and 5 wide all game long, if need be. If the team decides to stay in their base, there's going to be a LB on WR somewhere.

    I think the reason for that was because we are not one of the best teams in the league at this point and we would not scare anyone with our 4th or 5th WR and we don't even know who the 1 and 3 will be at this point. All we have right now is a slot guy in Harvin who is still having migraine issues plus we have no QB to get him the ball yet.

    That is why my stance is that you take the best you got and go at them with that and right now we have 2 TE's and could probably conjure up 1 WR. Other than that I am not sure how we are going to make anyone nervous trying to spread the defense out.
    Holy crap. I'm starting to agree with PF. What the hell is going on?
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  5. #75
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1091061
    As more and more teams have been switching to a 3-4 defense ( 6 teams ran a 3-4 in 2006 and 15 ran it in 2010) in order to counter the WCO it seems that right now with a new staff it would be prudent to look at the best way to counter the 3-4 ( 3 out of the 4 teams in the conference championship games ran a 3-4 and both SB teams ran it). And add to that the fact the the damn Packers run the 3-4 and it seems to me that there is no choice but to build our offense around beating that defense.

    OK, with that thought established, what are the strengths and weaknesses of the 3-4 and how do we stop it?

    Starting with the QB we need a guy who can get the ball down the field and spread that defense out. He doesn't have to be mobile as Mike Vick but he needs to be able to slide around and get the ball to the second and third levels. because of the speed of the linebackers I don't see much value in the screen passes or the short 3 yard YAC routes so I am looking for a guy that can stick the ball in anywhere but he has to be very smart because the 3-4 is designed to create confusion in the passing game by not knowing where the pressure is coming from.

    Moving to the OL, I would be fine with the OT's right now because the offense I am proposing can use their dominant size and won't ask them to do things their size doesn't allow. On the interior I would look for a much thicker, more athletic C to take on the NT's all game long and i would look for more bulk in the guard positions too. Hutch can hold his own but he is getting up there in age and will need to have a replacement ready in a few years. Herrera just might be OK if he comes back healthy and from all accounts he is the heart and soul of the line.

    I would absolutely run out of the 2 TE sets the bulk of the time. We have Shank who can occupy one of the OLB's and neutralize him by forcing him into coverage and Sauce who can knock the hell out of the other one and make a long day for him. The 2 TE set can really spread out the LB's and take away their ability to disguise coverages and pressures and it opens up the field to create more gaps on the field to exploit.

    That leaves us with 2 WR's and since we are a bit low in that dept we can lessen the risk we are exposed to at that position.

    At RB that leaves us with a single back who is the most electrifying back in the league and by spreading out those 3-4 defenses he will have the ability to get some great productivity.


    As I stated earlier in another thread if Julio Jones would happen to slip to us then he would be a great WR to put on the field opposite Harvin and that would allow us to let Rice go if he gets a better offer. Then in the 2nd we could take Stanzi out of Iowa. That kid is mentally tough, has the size and the arm strength and would give us a young nucleus that would be there for years.


    OK.

    I went out on a limb which is something I never do in the pre draft period so now feel free to pick my ideas apart and feel free to counter with a plan of your own.
    Good post. I would love to get Jones but in the second round maybe get a MAllet or Ponder. I am starting to like Ponder more and more. My other thopught was to slide down and pick up one or two extra picks and grab Phillip Taylor out of Baylor around 20-25. He is a beast and will be a steal at that point. I am afraid that by the time the draft comes more people will be onto this kid. He is 338 LBS and is very athletic like a young PW and maybe better.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  6. #76
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1091658
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1091627
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091626
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091562
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091544
    How about the fact that forcing teams like the steelers and the ravens to a nickel or dime also makes their defense a little bit weaker. Both those D's are stacked. If we can get them out of their base, and get a pretty skilled pass rusher or LB off the field in place for a 3rd or 4th CB I already feel like we have the edge.

    When the pats tore us apart a few years ago they didn't target Winfield or Cedric, it was Whittaker or McCauley or whoever our stop gap DB was at that point in time. Pretty sure it was Whittaker though.

    While no team is as bad off at corner as we were a few years ago, not many teams have a nickel and dime that are near the caliber of player a starter needs to be.
    But doesn't all that mean they aren't in the 3-4 anymore?

    Again, my comments are based moslty on them being in their base defense. You run out more WR's and they are now in the nickle, again, a defense designed to stop the pass.
    That was the point. There was already talk about spreading them out. I just elaborated.

    Why feature an I formation or 2 TE set against teams like the ravens, steelers and jets? Thats a recipe for a loss. The best teams in the league are prepared to go 3, 4, and 5 wide all game long, if need be. If the team decides to stay in their base, there's going to be a LB on WR somewhere.

    I think the reason for that was because we are not one of the best teams in the league at this point and we would not scare anyone with our 4th or 5th WR and we don't even know who the 1 and 3 will be at this point. All we have right now is a slot guy in Harvin who is still having migraine issues plus we have no QB to get him the ball yet.

    That is why my stance is that you take the best you got and go at them with that and right now we have 2 TE's and could probably conjure up 1 WR. Other than that I am not sure how we are going to make anyone nervous trying to spread the defense out.
    Holy crap. I'm starting to agree with PF. What the hell is going on?
    You are getting very wise my good friend. Be careful or i might have to bump you up a notch on my spreadsheet.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

  7. #77
    jessejames09's Avatar
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1091627
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091626
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091562
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1091544
    How about the fact that forcing teams like the steelers and the ravens to a nickel or dime also makes their defense a little bit weaker. Both those D's are stacked. If we can get them out of their base, and get a pretty skilled pass rusher or LB off the field in place for a 3rd or 4th CB I already feel like we have the edge.

    When the pats tore us apart a few years ago they didn't target Winfield or Cedric, it was Whittaker or McCauley or whoever our stop gap DB was at that point in time. Pretty sure it was Whittaker though.

    While no team is as bad off at corner as we were a few years ago, not many teams have a nickel and dime that are near the caliber of player a starter needs to be.
    But doesn't all that mean they aren't in the 3-4 anymore?

    Again, my comments are based moslty on them being in their base defense. You run out more WR's and they are now in the nickle, again, a defense designed to stop the pass.
    That was the point. There was already talk about spreading them out. I just elaborated.

    Why feature an I formation or 2 TE set against teams like the ravens, steelers and jets? Thats a recipe for a loss. The best teams in the league are prepared to go 3, 4, and 5 wide all game long, if need be. If the team decides to stay in their base, there's going to be a LB on WR somewhere.

    I think the reason for that was because we are not one of the best teams in the league at this point and we would not scare anyone with our 4th or 5th WR and we don't even know who the 1 and 3 will be at this point. All we have right now is a slot guy in Harvin who is still having migraine issues plus we have no QB to get him the ball yet.

    That is why my stance is that you take the best you got and go at them with that and right now we have 2 TE's and could probably conjure up 1 WR. Other than that I am not sure how we are going to make anyone nervous trying to spread the defense out.
    Title of the thread is building an offense to beat the best defenses, not "why we sucked last year" lol.

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