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  1. #21
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    OK, I'm confused, why do we keep talking about "Passing" against the 3-4? Only way I see a team attacking the 3-4 using a spread is if you want them to get out of the 3-4 so you can pass.

    The 3-4
    The 3-4 is designed to stop the short passing, ball control type offense. Naturally less than ideal against the run due to only three down linemen, this defense offers an extra defensive back for pass coverage.
    The 7 Most Common Defenses in Football

    Again, why would you pass against a defense designed to stop the pass.

    Look at it another way, in the 3-4, one of your OLB'rs is going to rush the passer, along with the 2 DE's. The other OLB'r is going to probably drop back into a zone or take the TE if he goes out into a route. Regardless, a whole is going to be vacated if they pass rush (stunt) which exposes them to the run.....

    Stunts usually take place in a passing situation. One danger is that the offense runs the ball and the ball carrier runs through the hole vacated by the stunting linemen. Another danger is the blockers read the stunt and stay at home, simply switching off linemen. In this case, the defensive lineman looking to engage a blocker has taken himself out of the play.
    Defense Schemes and Football Strategies


    Again, the best offense is a a offense that starts with your base look and being able to both run and pass out of.

    The key is to be unpredictable with that look so that the defense has to tip its hand, pre-snap, of what its planning on defending. If they stunt, you run. If they load up the box to stop the run, you pass.

    Now if your discussion is more geared to getting the team out of the 3-4, by using the spread alot of you are mentioning, then I can agree with that, but if you really look at it, your offense isn't attacking the 3-4 anymore, its attacking a nickle look.......isn't it? :huh:
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  2. #22
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091196
    OK, I'm confused, why do we keep talking about "Passing" against the 3-4? Only way I see a team attacking the 3-4 using a spread is if you want them to get out of the 3-4 so you can pass.

    The 3-4
    The 3-4 is designed to stop the short passing, ball control type offense. Naturally less than ideal against the run due to only three down linemen, this defense offers an extra defensive back for pass coverage.
    The 7 Most Common Defenses in Football

    Again, why would you pass against a defense designed to stop the pass.
    Theoretically, that's correct. but think about it. Look at some of the best defenses in the past 5 years against the run, and look at what scheme they run.
    Steelers - Seems every single year they're a top-5 D, and have been IMO one of, if not the most consistent run D teams in the past 5+ years. They're a 3-4 team
    Ravens - Again, similar to the Steelers
    Patriots - a great all-around Defense for most of the last decade.
    packers - recently swithed to 3-4, and have been dynamyte against the run.


    The "Downside" to the 3-4, is that since there's only 3 down linemen, there should be holes for up the gut runs, but look at all the 3-4 teams we play, we struggle running on the edges. Their LB's are often fast and strong enough to contain our outside runs, allowing the DL to focus on clogging up the middle.

    A true NT should be able to shut down both A gaps, at least that was what strategy we used in HS ball, the DE's should be able to hold the line on the end, ideally crashing in, shutting down the C gaps, and being able to make a play on outside runs.

    That leave the ILB's with the B gap responsibilities, and the OLB's to flow, fill in and contain the edge.

    An example of what I mean, poorly drawn, but take a look, pre and post-snap views


    As you can see, the NT is attacking a shoulder of the C, sending him back into the 1 hole, while occupying the 2 hole himself. the LDE is attacking the outside shoulder of the RT, ideally pushing him into the 4-hole to make it smaller, while holding the edge so he can make a play Off-Tackle. This also puts him in position to recover on a screen pass as well.
    The RDE should also be attacking the outside shoulder, pushing his guy in. I mis-drew it in the post-snap play, but I didn't feel like fixing it.

    This leaves the 3 and 4 hole open, which the LB's are responsible for flowing to. The SOLB will have the toughest responsibility, as he'll have to win his matchup against the TE if the run comes his way. He should be head up on him, slightly outside so he can contain a run. The RDE should be occupying the 5 hole a bit, but an opportunity will still be there for a run that way. WLB's responsibility is to contain the outside, as well as clean up if he sees the play going away from him. However, he needs to be aware of the cutback.

    Obviously, this is not an all-out blitz, just gap responsibilities that should be there. IMO, the 3-4 is the MOST effective against the run. Short/goal line situations, no, but between the 20's, it's a great option, AND it puts quicker guys on the field, which makes it effective against the short pass.

    Let's say you're running a Cover-2, instead of having 3 guys in the Hook zone, there are now 4 (assuming you don't blitz).

    Where the 3-4 suffers is the deeper passing game. If you run a 3-4, you CAN'T be afraid to blitz. part of the 3-4 is creating confusion on the line, by not knowing who's coming from where. OSmetimes there will be a hole and you can go right up the middle untouched for a sack or hurry.

    However, nobody can deny that most DB's are quicker than LB's. It's just like any scheme, to successfully defend deep passes in 3 or 4 WR sets, it helps to have a extra DB out there.

    However, I'll ask you this. If you talk to an offensive coordinator, and ask him how is the best way to attack a 3-4 Defense, he'll probably talk about staying balanced, runs between the tackles need to develop, and you need to make them pay through the air.

    Since so many of our big gains on the ground come from off-tackle runs, that's why we seem to get shut down so often against hte 3-4. Three LB's flowing to the ballcarrier, with one staying back to guard against the cutback, that's a recipe to keep AP to minimal production.

    This might actually be where Toby comes in handy. Let him power it up the middle for 3-4 yards before the ILB's can react and fill in. This is where I think the two-back set can come in handy. Not the traditional I, but I like this one:


    or the pro-set

    Allows for some leads, dives and misdirection which can help you find a seam, or just power out a few yards.

    Look at it another way, in the 3-4, one of your OLB'rs is going to rush the passer, along with the 2 DE's. The other OLB'r is going to probably drop back into a zone or take the TE if he goes out into a route. Regardless, a whole is going to be vacated if they pass rush (stunt) which exposes them to the run.....
    Again, all depends on the philosophy the D uses. Do they have LB's focusing on the run? Some teams will have their LB's wait until the KNOW pass is coming, depending on the opponents of course, or actually step forward(read-step) so their gap doens't get exposed.

    Teams that crowd the line alot like PIT/BAL seem to do exceptionally well at this. It helps to have fast LB's who can recover though, I'm not sure we can do something like that with Leber/EJ back there.
    Now if your discussion is more geared to getting the team out of the 3-4, by using the spread alot of you are mentioning, then I can agree with that, but if you really look at it, your offense isn't attacking the 3-4 anymore, its attacking a nickle look.......isn't it? :huh:
    All a similar strategy. How do you beat the Steelers D? Force them to change what they do. If you come out with 4 or 5 wide, that's an easy mismatch. If you have a smart, accurate QB, you can negate their blitz, by making quick short reads and negating their blitz. Blitz is most effective on longer passes, but by running some slants, outs, screens, etc. You can make them think twice about blitzing.

  3. #23
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091196
    OK, I'm confused, why do we keep talking about "Passing" against the 3-4? Only way I see a team attacking the 3-4 using a spread is if you want them to get out of the 3-4 so you can pass.

    The 3-4
    The 3-4 is designed to stop the short passing, ball control type offense. Naturally less than ideal against the run due to only three down linemen, this defense offers an extra defensive back for pass coverage.
    The 7 Most Common Defenses in Football

    Again, why would you pass against a defense designed to stop the pass.
    Theoretically, that's correct. but think about it. Look at some of the best defenses in the past 5 years against the run, and look at what scheme they run.
    Steelers - Seems every single year they're a top-5 D, and have been IMO one of, if not the most consistent run D teams in the past 5+ years. They're a 3-4 team
    Ravens - Again, similar to the Steelers
    Patriots - a great all-around Defense for most of the last decade.
    packers - recently swithed to 3-4, and have been dynamyte against the run.
    I'd like to point out that Green Bay actually wasn't very good versus the run. They were ranked 18th in total rushing yards against. They were 5th against the pass - even though teams passed against them a lot more than they ran.

    Fact is Green Bay gave up 4.7 yards per rushing attempt last season...they were tied for 31st with Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, and Buffalo.

    By comparison, the teams who gave up the least per attempt were:

    1 Pittsburgh Steelers 3.0
    2 San Francisco 49ers 3.5
    3 Miami Dolphins 3.6
    3 New York Jets 3.6
    5 Chicago Bears 3.7
    5 San Diego Chargers 3.7
    7 Baltimore Ravens 3.9
    7 Carolina Panthers 3.9
    7 Minnesota Vikings 3.9
    7 Tennessee Titans 3.9

    The teams in RED play a 3-4, however, which does support your overall point.

    Caine

  4. #24
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1091221
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091196
    OK, I'm confused, why do we keep talking about "Passing" against the 3-4? Only way I see a team attacking the 3-4 using a spread is if you want them to get out of the 3-4 so you can pass.

    The 3-4
    The 3-4 is designed to stop the short passing, ball control type offense. Naturally less than ideal against the run due to only three down linemen, this defense offers an extra defensive back for pass coverage.
    The 7 Most Common Defenses in Football

    Again, why would you pass against a defense designed to stop the pass.
    Theoretically, that's correct. but think about it. Look at some of the best defenses in the past 5 years against the run, and look at what scheme they run.
    Steelers - Seems every single year they're a top-5 D, and have been IMO one of, if not the most consistent run D teams in the past 5+ years. They're a 3-4 team
    Ravens - Again, similar to the Steelers
    Patriots - a great all-around Defense for most of the last decade.
    packers - recently swithed to 3-4, and have been dynamyte against the run.
    I'd like to point out that Green Bay actually wasn't very good versus the run. They were ranked 18th in total rushing yards against. They were 5th against the pass - even though teams passed against them a lot more than they ran.

    Fact is Green Bay gave up 4.7 yards per rushing attempt last season...they were tied for 31st with Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, and Buffalo.

    By comparison, the teams who gave up the least per attempt were:

    1 Pittsburgh Steelers 3.0
    2 San Francisco 49ers 3.5
    3 Miami Dolphins 3.6
    3 New York Jets 3.6
    5 Chicago Bears 3.7
    5 San Diego Chargers 3.7
    7 Baltimore Ravens 3.9
    7 Carolina Panthers 3.9
    7 Minnesota Vikings 3.9
    7 Tennessee Titans 3.9

    The teams in RED play a 3-4, however, which does support your overall point.

    Caine
    Good point, but if you look at what those teams do vs the pass, you would see were my point about balance (ability to do both pass and run) from your base set.

    Based on yards allowed You start out passing against the Steelers (12th), 49rs (24th) and loosen up that run game. Teams like the Chargers and Jets (that are good at both) you just hope something works.

    Again, if you think passing is the option and you want to go spread, in essence you aren't facing a 3-4 anymore, your facing a 3-4 that has taken people out and put people in to counter that, in almost every circumstance.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091228
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1091221
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091196
    OK, I'm confused, why do we keep talking about "Passing" against the 3-4? Only way I see a team attacking the 3-4 using a spread is if you want them to get out of the 3-4 so you can pass.

    The 3-4
    The 3-4 is designed to stop the short passing, ball control type offense. Naturally less than ideal against the run due to only three down linemen, this defense offers an extra defensive back for pass coverage.
    The 7 Most Common Defenses in Football

    Again, why would you pass against a defense designed to stop the pass.
    Theoretically, that's correct. but think about it. Look at some of the best defenses in the past 5 years against the run, and look at what scheme they run.
    Steelers - Seems every single year they're a top-5 D, and have been IMO one of, if not the most consistent run D teams in the past 5+ years. They're a 3-4 team
    Ravens - Again, similar to the Steelers
    Patriots - a great all-around Defense for most of the last decade.
    packers - recently swithed to 3-4, and have been dynamyte against the run.
    I'd like to point out that Green Bay actually wasn't very good versus the run. They were ranked 18th in total rushing yards against. They were 5th against the pass - even though teams passed against them a lot more than they ran.

    Fact is Green Bay gave up 4.7 yards per rushing attempt last season...they were tied for 31st with Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, and Buffalo.

    By comparison, the teams who gave up the least per attempt were:

    1 Pittsburgh Steelers 3.0
    2 San Francisco 49ers 3.5
    3 Miami Dolphins 3.6
    3 New York Jets 3.6
    5 Chicago Bears 3.7
    5 San Diego Chargers 3.7
    7 Baltimore Ravens 3.9
    7 Carolina Panthers 3.9
    7 Minnesota Vikings 3.9
    7 Tennessee Titans 3.9

    The teams in RED play a 3-4, however, which does support your overall point.

    Caine
    Good point, but if you look at what those teams do vs the pass, you would see were my point about balance (ability to do both pass and run) from your base set.

    Based on yards allowed You start out passing against the Steelers (12th), 49rs (24th) and loosen up that run game. Teams like the Chargers and Jets (that are good at both) you just hope something works.

    Again, if you think passing is the option and you want to go spread, in essence you aren't facing a 3-4 anymore, your facing a 3-4 that has taken people out and put people in to counter that, in almost every circumstance.
    is that not how you beat the best defenses? (What this thread is about). You force them to go into sets that aren't their top strengths.

    Steelers are a 3-4 team. They've got terrific LB's, great DL, but their secondary depth isn't that good. Get them in a Nickel formation, that's beating them.

    That is exactly what we're talking about. This thread isn't titled "How to beat the 3-4", it's how to beat the best defenses, most of which seem to run a 3-4 as a base set.

    NO team runs only their base set, and NO team runs only plays that can be stopped by a defenses base set.

  6. #26
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    All a similar strategy. How do you beat the Steelers D? Force them to change what they do. If you come out with 4 or 5 wide, that's an easy mismatch. If you have a smart, accurate QB, you can negate their blitz, by making quick short reads and negating their blitz. Blitz is most effective on longer passes, but by running some slants, outs, screens, etc. You can make them think twice about blitzing.
    Not sure what all that was above this, however, to answer our question, you go at them in your base offense and expose their weakness.

    In the Steelers case, its the pass.

    Why would you run extra WR's out there and tip your hand, "Hey Steelers, I'm gonna pass" so they can change from their 3-4 into a defense that can stop the pass?

    Again, their weakness is pass. Put out your base, don't tip your hand, look to see what they show, and then do the opposite.

    Thats the "Strategy" or in this case, how you build an offense to beat the best defense.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091230
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    All a similar strategy. How do you beat the Steelers D? Force them to change what they do. If you come out with 4 or 5 wide, that's an easy mismatch. If you have a smart, accurate QB, you can negate their blitz, by making quick short reads and negating their blitz. Blitz is most effective on longer passes, but by running some slants, outs, screens, etc. You can make them think twice about blitzing.
    Not sure what all that was above this, however, to answer our question, you go at them in your base offense and expose their weakness.

    In the Steelers case, its the pass.

    Why would you run extra WR's out there and tip your hand, "Hey Steelers, I'm gonna pass" so they can change from their 3-4 into a defense that can stop the pass?

    Again, their weakness is pass. Put out your base, don't tip your hand, look to see what they show, and then do the opposite.

    Thats the "Strategy" or in this case, how you build an offense to beat the best defense.
    Because you don't run every time you put 3 receivers on the field.

    A good strategy against them is rush out a 3 wide set, either I with a slot, or a singleback with a TE. Cause them to either shift a LB out, changing up gap responsibilities, or take a LB out and bring in a DB.

    Now, if they choose to stick with a 3 man line there, that makes it easier to run already. If they switch to a 4-2-5 Nickel formation, there are ways to attack that as well.

    The key is to get them out of the plays and sets they are comfortable with.

  8. #28
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    For example, I was watching the NFLN last season before the playoffs, Probably playbook, and they were talking about the Saints during their superbowl run.

    They showed how they opened their games and the offensive playcalling they chose. They did not run the same set twice for the first 20 plays or so. Say they call a 3 wide singleback set, sometimes they'd have Shockey as the Slot, sometimes it's Bush. Sometimes they'd have the top-two WR on the same side, with Bush or Shockey split out wide on the weak side.

    These kind of changes will keep defenses guessing as well. Come out with the same formation, but different personell. And I don't mean swapping harvin for Lewis. . I mean swapping Harvin and Berrian, sticking Shank in the slot and running two backs with no TE position.

    Then, switch to a new formation, new look. It doesn't always have to be 3 wide receivers. There's a reason they often have faster TE's split out a bit. If the offense comes on the field with two backs, two receivers and a TE, the DC isn't going to send out 6 DB's, they'll probably stick with a 3-4(if they run that), then shift and make adjustments to cover the TE in the slot.

    Come back with a run on a 6 man front, and you've got yourself an opportunity to make a play.

  9. #29
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091231
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091230
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    All a similar strategy. How do you beat the Steelers D? Force them to change what they do. If you come out with 4 or 5 wide, that's an easy mismatch. If you have a smart, accurate QB, you can negate their blitz, by making quick short reads and negating their blitz. Blitz is most effective on longer passes, but by running some slants, outs, screens, etc. You can make them think twice about blitzing.
    Not sure what all that was above this, however, to answer our question, you go at them in your base offense and expose their weakness.

    In the Steelers case, its the pass.

    Why would you run extra WR's out there and tip your hand, "Hey Steelers, I'm gonna pass" so they can change from their 3-4 into a defense that can stop the pass?

    Again, their weakness is pass. Put out your base, don't tip your hand, look to see what they show, and then do the opposite.

    Thats the "Strategy" or in this case, how you build an offense to beat the best defense.
    Because you don't run every time you put 3 receivers on the field.

    A good strategy against them is rush out a 3 wide set, either I with a slot, or a singleback with a TE. Cause them to either shift a LB out, changing up gap responsibilities, or take a LB out and bring in a DB.

    Now, if they choose to stick with a 3 man line there, that makes it easier to run already. If they switch to a 4-2-5 Nickel formation, there are ways to attack that as well.

    The key is to get them out of the plays and sets they are comfortable with.
    But thats my point,,,,,.....Your not facing a 3-4 anymore. You've let them take off a weakness and insert a strength based on what you showed.

    Again, I ask, what are you trying to do, beat a 3-4 defense or just beat a defense regardless of what they have on the field.

    As I said, if thats what your trying to do, I agree. But if your trying to beat a 3-4, well, then I don't.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091237
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091231
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091230
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1091217
    All a similar strategy. How do you beat the Steelers D? Force them to change what they do. If you come out with 4 or 5 wide, that's an easy mismatch. If you have a smart, accurate QB, you can negate their blitz, by making quick short reads and negating their blitz. Blitz is most effective on longer passes, but by running some slants, outs, screens, etc. You can make them think twice about blitzing.
    Not sure what all that was above this, however, to answer our question, you go at them in your base offense and expose their weakness.

    In the Steelers case, its the pass.

    Why would you run extra WR's out there and tip your hand, "Hey Steelers, I'm gonna pass" so they can change from their 3-4 into a defense that can stop the pass?

    Again, their weakness is pass. Put out your base, don't tip your hand, look to see what they show, and then do the opposite.

    Thats the "Strategy" or in this case, how you build an offense to beat the best defense.
    Because you don't run every time you put 3 receivers on the field.

    A good strategy against them is rush out a 3 wide set, either I with a slot, or a singleback with a TE. Cause them to either shift a LB out, changing up gap responsibilities, or take a LB out and bring in a DB.

    Now, if they choose to stick with a 3 man line there, that makes it easier to run already. If they switch to a 4-2-5 Nickel formation, there are ways to attack that as well.

    The key is to get them out of the plays and sets they are comfortable with.
    But thats my point,,,,,.....Your not facing a 3-4 anymore. You've let them take off a weakness and insert a strength based on what you showed.

    Again, I ask, what are you trying to do, beat a 3-4 defense or just beat a defense regardless of what they have on the field.

    As I said, if thats what your trying to do, I agree. But if your trying to beat a 3-4, well, then I don't.
    I'm trying to beat a defensive unit, which is what this thread is about.

    No coach will take a team like the Steelers or Pats, and say "Ok, they're a 3-4 team, which way can we keep them in their strongest formation and beat theM?" No, they'll think up ways to keep them guessing, off-balance and get them out of that formation.

    I'm trying to beat a Team, not a particular set.

    At this point, we're arguing semantics. You think that by changing formations, that's not beating them, but if you force them out of their set, and make them play by your rules, you have the upper hand.

    It is a defenses job to react to whatever the Offense throws at them, but if they throw something that one formation isn't built for, you need to adjust. If you can't stop it after adjusting, you lose.

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