Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 77
  1. #11
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    [quote="Marrdro"

    Just want to add one piece to that. You need to have a balanced offense that can both pass and run out of its base set, whatever that is. That forces the defense to show their hand first (pre-snap) in an effort to figure out if you are going to pass or run out of your base.[/quote]

    Yep, that is what I was getting at. And with the personnel right now I believe that we have the best package on the field with the personnel I described. Now, if we get to the point where we get a great QB and add some real quality depth at WR then I agree with what you are getting at but right now we do not have the right talent to pull it off at a high level.

    The base offense, best suited for a WCO IMHO is the following:



    WR T G C G T WR
    QB TE

    FB
    RB
    And the 3-4 is well suited to stop the WCO, but you are revolutionary with lining up the QB over a WR instead of the more conventional C position. That might just be crazy enough to work:P

    I think one of the minor changes to this over the years is the move of a few times (Vikings being one of them) to a H-back instead of a FB. Don't know how many times I saw the Vikes in a single back set only to have Dugan drop back into a FB position based on what the defenses showed presnap.
    And that is the role I see Sauce filling in the offense. He can line up and help block an OLB, he can drop back to a FB posion or he can line up and release into a pass pattern if his LB chooses to blitz and all of that can come out of the same personnel package which would force the defense to show their hand and not be able to substitute.

    Again, you (the defense) don't know what the H-back is really going to do (run block or go out into a pass).
    Damn, quit thinking like me already lol.

    On a side note, something I saw the PUKERS doing alot last year (they practice against the 3-4) was the inverted wish bone. I'm not that familiar with it, but it sure seemed to work for them against 3-4 defenses, especially considering how weak their run game was last year.
    They did a good job of changing up formations to keep the defense guessing.

  2. #12
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,909

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    [quote="Purple Floyd" #1091105]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro"

    Just want to add one piece to that. You need to have a balanced offense that can both pass and run out of its base set, whatever that is. That forces the defense to show their hand first (pre-snap) in an effort to figure out if you are going to pass or run out of your base.[/quote

    Yep, that is what I was getting at. And with the personnel right now I believe that we have the best package on the field with the personnel I described. Now, if we get to the point where we get a great QB and add some real quality depth at WR then I agree with what you are getting at but right now we do not have the right talent to pull it off at a high level.

    The base offense, best suited for a WCO IMHO is the following:



    WR T G C G T WR
    QB TE

    FB
    RB
    And the 3-4 is well suited to stop the WCO, but you are revolutionary with lining up the QB over a WR instead of the more conventional C position. That might just be crazy enough to work:P

    I think one of the minor changes to this over the years is the move of a few times (Vikings being one of them) to a H-back instead of a FB. Don't know how many times I saw the Vikes in a single back set only to have Dugan drop back into a FB position based on what the defenses showed presnap.
    And that is the role I see Sauce filling in the offense. He can line up and help block an OLB, he can drop back to a FB posion or he can line up and release into a pass pattern if his LB chooses to blitz and all of that can come out of the same personnel package which would force the defense to show their hand and not be able to substitute.

    Again, you (the defense) don't know what the H-back is really going to do (run block or go out into a pass).
    Damn, quit thinking like me already lol.

    On a side note, something I saw the PUKERS doing alot last year (they practice against the 3-4) was the inverted wish bone. I'm not that familiar with it, but it sure seemed to work for them against 3-4 defenses, especially considering how weak their run game was last year.
    They did a good job of changing up formations to keep the defense guessing.
    First, the server has an issue for some reason when it comes to laying out the offensive and defensive positioning. Has had that issue for a while. Take it with a grain of salt and assume that when I made the original post the QB was under center.

    Second, as to the need to have some sort of exceptional QB and WR's, that isn't needed. Thats kindof playing into the strength of the defense.

    In short, the way to beat the 3-4 isn't to pass, its to estalish the run and pass, only when they commit extra bodies to stop the run.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #13
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1091096
    I don't think beef up front equates to success against the 3-4. And I said 3-4 WRs, you're right about us not having the personnel to go 5 wide. 4 we can pull of once in a while though.
    And i am certainly not against doing that from time to time because I absolutely agree it can expose the defense, but I just don't see us having the personnel to be able to do that at a high level for a few years.

    I just think that having 2 TEs as opposed to 1 TE and 3 WRs allows the defense to keep a LB on the field that they would in all likelihood replace in nickel. And like you said, control the OLBs, control the defense. I think the best way to control an opposing player is to keep him on the sideline.
    I think a good example is to watch what NE is trending towards with their offense where they routinely employ 2 athletic TE's into the formation in order to get a mismatch on the defense of teams like the Jets.



    6 on 6 with 5 offensive linemen will be more successful than 7 on 7 with 5 offensive linemen, Kleinsasser included. But like I said before, no matter what we do, we need to move offensive linemen. The whole point of a defensive line in the 3-4 is to eat up blocks, on every play. And with 4 LBs out there, we need to get linemen up field.
    I agree that you either have to manhandle them physically or get them moving laterally to be successful. I guess I gravitate towards the physical considering who we have on the OL and how I think they are going to adjust it but I certainly agree that your way would work too if we went that direction with personnel.

  4. #14
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1091106
    First, the server has an issue for some reason when it comes to laying out the offensive and defensive positioning. Has had that issue for a while. Take it with a grain of salt and assume that when I made the original post the QB was under center.
    Oh, I know that and could see it the way you drew it up when I quoted, but then again do you think I could pass up the opportunity to give you a little crap? I think not:evil:

    Second, as to the need to have some sort of exceptional QB and WR's, that isn't needed. Thats kindof playing into the strength of the defense.
    Well, one way or the other we are not close to exceptional, outstanding or even average with the roster that we have right now at the QB and WR position.So we certainly are not going to come out on day 1 and do any of the multiple WR sets etc.

    In short, the way to beat the 3-4 isn't to pass, its to estalish the run and pass, only when they commit extra bodies to stop the run.
    Yep. And you can run better more consistently out of the 2 TE than out of the spread.

  5. #15
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,909

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1091113
    Yep. And you can run better more consistently out of the 2 TE than out of the spread.
    Sure you can, but again, the main point is that you are trying to dictate to the defense by lining up in your base offensive set. A 2-2 set (2 RB - 2 TE's) almost screams "I'm gonna run" were as a 2-1 set (2 RB's - 1 TE) kindof leaves them guessing a bit which, again, forces them to show something pre-snap.

    From that base, you then establish the run and exploit the pass when they start to commit to stopping the run.

    What the 3-4 does, however, to a WCO is to force them to be patient. Most teams aren't, especially if they like to chuck it around alot.

    One point, in all of this, that I will give you wrt the QB, is can he digest what the defense is showing pre-snap.

    That doesn't mean you need to have a QB that is gods gift to football with respect to throwing ability, just someone who can throw it accurately after he figures out the defense is giving him a look that is designed to stop the run or to hand the ball off if the defense is showing a set that is going to try to stop the pass.

    Lets not forget, a 3-4 wasn't designed to stop the WCO, by the way, it was designed to confuse the guy making the pre-snap read/adjustment (i.e. QB and C) regardless of what offensive scheme the other team runs.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #16
    mountainviking's Avatar
    mountainviking is offline Team Alumni
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,839

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    6 on 6 with 5 offensive linemen will be more successful than 7 on 7 with 5 offensive linemen, Kleinsasser included. But like I said before, no matter what we do, we need to move offensive linemen. The whole point of a defensive line in the 3-4 is to eat up blocks, on every play. And with 4 LBs out there, we need to get linemen up field
    Makes sense to me! Good Point!

    I think, the main thing, is to be versatile and use multi looks. Sure, run some 2 TE. But, also, run some 4 WRs/1RB too. Keep any defense guessing, and a balanced attack moving forward!

    And, of course, in order to do that, we need more talent at WR, OL, and eventually, TE. Love how the Consesus Mock Draft is falling this week: Julio Jones at 12, a huuuuge OG, Marcus Cannon in the 2nd, and then a combine standout athlete, Virgil Green TE, Nevada in the 4th. That would be a hell of an upgrade to offense for our new Defensive coach. Bring in a vet or two to boost DT and S depth and coach em on up in his strengths: DB and LB.

    Then trade a sliding value pick in the 2012 draft for Orton if we can't sign a Hasselbeck, Volek, Alex Smith type to buy us some QB grooming time. I think this team can be surprisingly competitive next year...like, at least like, 8-8 good for 3rd or 4th in the NFC NORTH!

    :O :blink: :silly: :P


    http://www.drafttek.com/CMDRound1.asp
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  7. #17
    seaniemck7's Avatar
    seaniemck7 is offline Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    1,453

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    I may be talking (typing) out of my ass, but ...

    I think PF has a legit philosophy as to spreading out the 3-4 Defense. There are two ways to spread the D in todays modern NFL. One way is you throw 4-5 receivers out in a set. Obviously the D would need to accommodate for that formation. However the other way to move defenders out would be to increase the line spreads. A 2 TE set could do that against a 3-4. The more men on the line, the wider the OLB typically sets up. With the pre-snap gaps bigger, fat NTs have to work harder; 3-4 DEs spread out; and OLBs are further away from the backfield.

    The key is, as aforementioned by PF, you want to dictate to a 3-4 Defense. Otherwise they will eat you up with zone schemes and unbalanced pressure. Basing out of a 2 TE set, with proper splits, allows for multiple running lanes as well as having options for passing; IF you have the TEs to beat people in the flats and seams, and the OL men to run a succinct blocking scheme to move defenders. Do we have that skill out of our TEs and OL men? Debatable. Do we have the RB to beat 1 guy to get to the second level? Absolutely.

    I have faith (read: hope) that our new coaching staff will recognize what we have and deploy blocking schemes that will neutralize what a base 3-4 team presents. They better realize the skills that AD inherently has with his cut-back ability and his pnchant to make one guy miss. Remember, AD set his record against the Chargers 3-4 alignment.

    All we need is a QB... easy, right?

  8. #18
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "seaniemck7" #1091165
    I may be talking (typing) out of my ass, but ...

    I think PF has a legit philosophy as to spreading out the 3-4 Defense. There are two ways to spread the D in todays modern NFL. One way is you throw 4-5 receivers out in a set. Obviously the D would need to accommodate for that formation. However the other way to move defenders out would be to increase the line spreads. A 2 TE set could do that against a 3-4. The more men on the line, the wider the OLB typically sets up. With the pre-snap gaps bigger, fat NTs have to work harder; 3-4 DEs spread out; and OLBs are further away from the backfield.

    The key is, as aforementioned by PF, you want to dictate to a 3-4 Defense. Otherwise they will eat you up with zone schemes and unbalanced pressure. Basing out of a 2 TE set, with proper splits, allows for multiple running lanes as well as having options for passing; IF you have the TEs to beat people in the flats and seams, and the OL men to run a succinct blocking scheme to move defenders. Do we have that skill out of our TEs and OL men? Debatable. Do we have the RB to beat 1 guy to get to the second level? Absolutely.

    I have faith (read: hope) that our new coaching staff will recognize what we have and deploy blocking schemes that will neutralize what a base 3-4 team presents. They better realize the skills that AD inherently has with his cut-back ability and his pnchant to make one guy miss. Remember, AD set his record against the Chargers 3-4 alignment.

    All we need is a QB... easy, right?
    You my friend are a very wise man.:laugh:

  9. #19
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
    Mr Anderson is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    7,692

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "seaniemck7" #1091165
    I may be talking (typing) out of my ass, but ...

    I think PF has a legit philosophy as to spreading out the 3-4 Defense. There are two ways to spread the D in todays modern NFL. One way is you throw 4-5 receivers out in a set. Obviously the D would need to accommodate for that formation. However the other way to move defenders out would be to increase the line spreads. A 2 TE set could do that against a 3-4. The more men on the line, the wider the OLB typically sets up. With the pre-snap gaps bigger, fat NTs have to work harder; 3-4 DEs spread out; and OLBs are further away from the backfield.

    The key is, as aforementioned by PF, you want to dictate to a 3-4 Defense. Otherwise they will eat you up with zone schemes and unbalanced pressure. Basing out of a 2 TE set, with proper splits, allows for multiple running lanes as well as having options for passing; IF you have the TEs to beat people in the flats and seams, and the OL men to run a succinct blocking scheme to move defenders. Do we have that skill out of our TEs and OL men? Debatable. Do we have the RB to beat 1 guy to get to the second level? Absolutely.

    I have faith (read: hope) that our new coaching staff will recognize what we have and deploy blocking schemes that will neutralize what a base 3-4 team presents. They better realize the skills that AD inherently has with his cut-back ability and his pnchant to make one guy miss. Remember, AD set his record against the Chargers 3-4 alignment.

    All we need is a QB... easy, right?
    Doesn't spreading the formation out in that way just make it so the running back has to run farther as well?

  10. #20
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Building an offense to beat the best defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1091169
    Quote Originally Posted by "seaniemck7" #1091165
    I may be talking (typing) out of my ass, but ...

    I think PF has a legit philosophy as to spreading out the 3-4 Defense. There are two ways to spread the D in todays modern NFL. One way is you throw 4-5 receivers out in a set. Obviously the D would need to accommodate for that formation. However the other way to move defenders out would be to increase the line spreads. A 2 TE set could do that against a 3-4. The more men on the line, the wider the OLB typically sets up. With the pre-snap gaps bigger, fat NTs have to work harder; 3-4 DEs spread out; and OLBs are further away from the backfield.

    The key is, as aforementioned by PF, you want to dictate to a 3-4 Defense. Otherwise they will eat you up with zone schemes and unbalanced pressure. Basing out of a 2 TE set, with proper splits, allows for multiple running lanes as well as having options for passing; IF you have the TEs to beat people in the flats and seams, and the OL men to run a succinct blocking scheme to move defenders. Do we have that skill out of our TEs and OL men? Debatable. Do we have the RB to beat 1 guy to get to the second level? Absolutely.

    I have faith (read: hope) that our new coaching staff will recognize what we have and deploy blocking schemes that will neutralize what a base 3-4 team presents. They better realize the skills that AD inherently has with his cut-back ability and his pnchant to make one guy miss. Remember, AD set his record against the Chargers 3-4 alignment.

    All we need is a QB... easy, right?
    Doesn't spreading the formation out in that way just make it so the running back has to run farther as well?
    You mean to the end zone? I don't consider that a drawback.:laugh:

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. AD: A pain for defenses
    By Garland Greene in forum Vikings Fan Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-12-2008, 12:10 AM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-21-2007, 05:12 AM
  3. 2006 Vikings offense=2003 Chiefs offense
    By PurplePeopleEaters in forum Vikings Fan Forum
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 07-31-2006, 01:35 AM
  4. Top 5 Defenses in '06
    By Prophet in forum General NFL Discussion
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-15-2006, 06:14 PM
  5. Defenses Anybody?
    By Haneef87 in forum The Clubhouse
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-09-2004, 09:35 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •