Thread: (Bryant McKinnie and the Vikings' O-line)

2) Upgrade the offensive line. Throw some free agency money and draft picks at the line. Create some serious depth.

Wednesday (Bryant McKinnie and the Vikings' O-line) edition: Wha' Happened?

The guys on Sirius were talking about line play and how most fans (and sports hacks) don't have a clue when it comes to it. Here is a prime example.

I wonder what the guy thinks of when he thinks depth? Does he think every team has starters sitting on the bench just waiting to come in?

Hell, for that matter, I wonder if he even knows that 2/5ths of our OL are backups?

I wonder if he knows the difference between who blocks who when it comes to OL play and the other players (RB's, FB's, TE's) involved in that process?

I wonder if he has a clue on how those players figure out who gets who when a stunt happens?

I wonder if he knows how long a RB/FB/TE should stay in and block?

My guess, he doesn't.

In the end, I blame the networks. Because of the limited view we get from the sideline camera angle, all that stuff is missed (and guessed at) by most fans. Hell, I bet its missed by most who are at the game as well.

Until fans start to watch the game instead of following the ball, it will continue to be missed IMHO.

Marrdro inserts shameless plug for Kirwans new book.......

You're an offensive lineman and it's late in the game.

You're mentally tired. Sweat, snot and spit drips off your face as you look down to see your hand still shaking from when you crushed it in the first quarter. There is probably some nerve damage. Your knees ache, your back hurts so bad it's hard to stand up straight. You wince and feel a burning sensation. Your vision is blurred due to a cut on your forehead from your last collision with some alcoholic 6'5" 320lb War-Daddy running a 4.8, benching 500, and cleaning 401 at 17% body fat who has an outstanding warrant for his arrest, beats his girlfriend regularly and just insulted your mom with words you couldn't understand. His only instructions were to "Get to the ball, and be in a bad mood when you get there!!"

Now the coach calls a timeout and you run over to the sidelines as your teammates yell "Come on! Get it together man!" The fans boo you relentlessly because they didn't drive 3hrs on a Saturday to see you blow the game because of a little headache. You barely make it over to the sideline because you're still dizzy and here comes your "motivational" speech from some wide-eyed 5'8" 280 lb redneck with a wad of chew in his mouth. "What in the heeelllll was that?! Get your ass down, your hands up and punch his @#$!. Didn't you hear the `River call?! They were in a 50 package with a weak side blitz. You know you've got to slide right you big dumb @#$!*! You made a commitment to this team!! Where is your pride son?!! People are counting on you! On YOU!! How can you call yourself an athlete and take that abuse in front of all these people and millions at home? God-bless son, what do your parents think? Get your head in the game!! If you don't want to play, hell, I got three freshman over there that will play for your fat ass!! I'll suit up someone from the stands before I watch you do that crap again!! I'd rather have my little sister out there giving 100% than watch you half-ass it out there because you're tired and you don't want to give the effort. Now get out there and do your job boy!"

So now you get in the huddle and here comes the quarterback with the call: "Larry Left, 90 XY out on Two, on Two. Ready ....BREAK!!

So here's what goes through your head: "90...90....What is 90? That's a 7 step drop. He needs lots of time. Damn my hand hurts! Larry Left. OK, I've got the tight-end on my side so the 7 technique will be wide. The Mike is right and I'm uncovered, so I've got the Sam to the end to the Corner. Easy. Oh crap, they eagled down and War-Daddy is lined up with me, and I don't have help because the other guard has a two technique and the center is uncovered and he has to slide. Better go from a two point stance, this guy is quick."

Football 101:
A Day in the Life

Next to Kirwans book, that has to be the best piece of literature I've found to date on what it takes to be a OLmen.

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1085348

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1085348

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

But I don't think its that easy. We saw several on here blame Sully for a missed block when clearly it was AD (he actually turned his back to the blocker) who had the responsibility.

Mr. A, don't want to take away from his knowledge of the line, continues to say our T's are to big cause they get beat by speedier pass rushing DE's. Guess what. All of them do. Thats why teams have them.

Instead of hacking on the T for not being able to signle up on the guy, we should be hacking on the coaches for not giving help. If the right package is in there to give help, we need to hack on the QB for not a) recognizing the threat and adjusting the RB/FB/TE blocking assignment or b) checking out of the play into a run.

Again, our issues we are seeing with our OL aren't new to the league and we aren't the only team having those problems. Last time I checked (3 weeks ago) we were slightly above average with respect to our DVOA rating and that was with Cook in for a good share.

Can't get the site to come up today, but I bet we aren't far off that mark even after Degeare starting a couple of games.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

I try but there are a select few who keep sucking me back in. Bastardo's......:laugh:

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1085357

Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1085348

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1085357

Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1085348

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

McKinnie is a piece of crap. I bet all those people who said he shouldn't pick up Flozell wish we had. I know I do.

Originally Posted by "tarkenton10" #1085383

McKinnie is a piece of crap. I bet all those people who said he shouldn't pick up Flozell wish we had. I know I do.

I was one who thought he might be done.

Additionally, don't get me wrong, I've been wanting Big Mac gone for the last 3 years and believe we could have better play at C but my whole point in this is that most people look to the OLmen for the cause instead of looking for the solution.

Again, alot of teams have worse OLmen than we do and get by. Our problem is much bigger than those 5 guys.

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1085364

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1085357

Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1085348

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Riiiight......the O-line doesn't dictate pass protection...

uh huh...


and the QB doesn't throw passes either...



and running backs don't actually run the ball....

...only in Marrdroland.

Caine

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1085389

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1085364

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1085357

Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1085348

My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's.

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Riiiight......the O-line doesn't dictate pass protection...

uh huh...


and the QB doesn't throw passes either...



and running backs don't actually run the ball....

...only in Marrdroland.

Caine

Now your starting to give answers like the Infidel does. B)

Of course the line (actually the Center) makes pre-snap adjustments and line shifts, just like the QB makes pre-snap adjustments and blocking assignments pre-snap.

Again, one more time for possible penetration, that sucks this year.

Look back on my comments starting with the saints game. We were passing out of a 23 set into a 3-8 defense. Not just once, almost the whole game.

Whats up with that?

A FB, 3 TE's against 3 Dlinemen and we are passing out of it?