Thread: Bring in the " Closer QB "

"NordicNed" wrote:

"Caine" wrote:

Many NFL contracts have escallators - or performance enhancers - built into them.
An example might be that Player X gets a $250,000 bonus if he throws more than 25 TDs in a given season.

If the coach pulls player X out of a blow out game - a situation in which player X might move closer to his goal - prior to the achievement of that goal, the Player is likely to be fairly ticked.
I know I would be if I was yanked in a blow out and wound up missing a quarter of a million bucks by 1 TD pass, or 10 yards on the ground, or some such silliness.


Further, some players might be closing in on a contract year and want to enhance their stats in order to pull in big money.
No one remembers WHY you didn't catch 95 passes last season, they just remember that you didn't.
Therefore, no big contract...or one that you might believe would have been bigger had you been "allowed" to play.

While football is a "team" sport, the millions of dollars at stake Individually make it very difficult for coaches to hot-swap players.
The exceptions being injury and the "saving you for the play-offs" excuse in the last 2 weeks.

Caine

Silly me, leave it to Caine to set me straight...LOL










Caine,
honeslty, I never took into consideration the fact that many contracts are laidened with incentives on performance and goals met, both individual and sometimes as a whole teams outcome.

I can easily agree, this could open a big can of worms.
Well, it was just a thought.










Come to think of it,
wasn't it Denvers RB " Davis " back a few years gone by now, where he needed like 2 more yards of rushing or was it that the ball was on like the 2 yard line, and the coach didn't put him into the fold for the last 2 or 3 plays, because if he rushed for 2 more yards or made the TD rush, he would have made like an extra $250,000 ?

Or something to that fact.....I remember the player was really pissed, and I was pissed for him also.
He got burnt by his coach and managment for sure.

I don't recall that, but I do recall that two years ago Ryan Grant missed out on his bonus because of a long td run that was called back by a flag.
He needed 1200 yards to get 250,000, and that run put him over, but once called back he was 15 short or something like that.
made me LOL

"i_bleed_purple" wrote:

"NordicNed" wrote:

"Caine" wrote:

Many NFL contracts have escallators - or performance enhancers - built into them.
An example might be that Player X gets a $250,000 bonus if he throws more than 25 TDs in a given season.

If the coach pulls player X out of a blow out game - a situation in which player X might move closer to his goal - prior to the achievement of that goal, the Player is likely to be fairly ticked.
I know I would be if I was yanked in a blow out and wound up missing a quarter of a million bucks by 1 TD pass, or 10 yards on the ground, or some such silliness.


Further, some players might be closing in on a contract year and want to enhance their stats in order to pull in big money.
No one remembers WHY you didn't catch 95 passes last season, they just remember that you didn't.
Therefore, no big contract...or one that you might believe would have been bigger had you been "allowed" to play.

While football is a "team" sport, the millions of dollars at stake Individually make it very difficult for coaches to hot-swap players.
The exceptions being injury and the "saving you for the play-offs" excuse in the last 2 weeks.

Caine

Silly me, leave it to Caine to set me straight...LOL










Caine,
honeslty, I never took into consideration the fact that many contracts are laidened with incentives on performance and goals met, both individual and sometimes as a whole teams outcome.

I can easily agree, this could open a big can of worms.
Well, it was just a thought.










Come to think of it,
wasn't it Denvers RB " Davis " back a few years gone by now, where he needed like 2 more yards of rushing or was it that the ball was on like the 2 yard line, and the coach didn't put him into the fold for the last 2 or 3 plays, because if he rushed for 2 more yards or made the TD rush, he would have made like an extra $250,000 ?

Or something to that fact.....I remember the player was really pissed, and I was pissed for him also.
He got burnt by his coach and managment for sure.

I don't recall that, but I do recall that two years ago Ryan Grant missed out on his bonus because of a long td run that was called back by a flag.
He needed 1200 yards to get 250,000, and that run put him over, but once called back he was 15 short or something like that.
made me LOL

I'm wrong, I
just remembered, it had something to do with the Seahawks RB, about 5 or 6 years ago I believe...he only needed one more rushing TD or a couple of yards rushing more...I think they even pulled him out of the game for the last play...Holmgren got alot of shit for it.....Can't remember the exact facts, but he lost out on alot of money....

I bet we see the Dolphins use two QBs this year.

"marstc09" wrote:

I bet we see the Dolphins use two QBs this year.

With that wildcat, I bet they work on that and use Pennington, White, and Ronnie Brown. They will have the ball flying and zooming all across the field. Pat White was picked up just for that reason http://bleacherreport.com/articles/187268-pat-white-next-stage-in-evolution-of-wildcat

I guess if we were up by that many points in the fourth, my thoughts would be to leave Favre in if he's playing well, and let AD/chesty burn up the clock. I mean he doesn't even have to throw any passes, or if he does, little slant routs or shuffles...stuff that's easy on the arm. Leaving him in also means that the defense has to continue to respect him the rest of the game knowing he could hurt them at any given time. I don't think bringing in TJ or Sage would demand the same respect from the D.

"hillshaveeyesPA" wrote:

"marstc09" wrote:

I bet we see the Dolphins use two QBs this year.

With that wildcat, I bet they work on that and use Pennington, White, and Ronnie Brown. They will have the ball flying and zooming all across the field. Pat White was picked up just for that reason http://bleacherreport.com/articles/187268-pat-white-next-stage-in-evolution-of-wildcat

TJ going in for a few plays as another wrinkle (and a significant passing threat) in a wildcat wouldn't be a bad idea.
His athletic ability makes him a running or receiving threat and would definitely require more attention from the LOS than Favre would.

I just personally don't think this would work that well.
28-7 is only THREE possessions and can get away from you quickly.
I think in most games ... if it is 28 points or so you see coaches go to the back up and such, but in a game that is still a three TD contest and 15 to go, it would be premature.
I think that comparison to baseball is a little off too as the two sports are completely different. Often a pitching change has NOTHING to do with being up a lot, but with the match-up and getting the out. As a matter of fact, I think managers leave pitchers in just a little longer when they have a big lead.
I would not HATE to see us rest Favre whenever we can in situations like this. Bu 28-7 with 15 minutes to go is a little too soon to pull the trigger.

"gagarr" wrote:

I mentioned such a idea a while back as part of how the Vikes can keep Favre healthy and rested for the playoffs.

The Favre haters came up with reasons why it wouldn't work.

They think it won't work because of timing issues with WR's, exchange between center and QB, expectations from OL for protection, exchange between QB and RB, and other nuances.

Not sure if I really like to use the word hate, however, for the sake of discussion, I readily admit I am 100% against him coming, however, to sit here and think you can use a QB like a relief pitcher in baseball is kindof crazy.
All "Hating" aside, like it or not, those types of things are very important to how the offense works, especially in the WCO that we run.

Requirements and disadvantages
The West Coast offense requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players. In addition, it requires the quarterback to be able quickly to pick one of 5 receivers to throw to � much more quickly than previously used systems. Often, the quarterback cannot think about the play, but instead reacts instinctively � and thus is often under the control of the offensive coordinator, calling the plays for him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense

There are three main principles to minimize risk and achieve success with the West Coast offense. These include protecting the quarterback, timing the pass, and using multiple receivers (including using backs as receivers). Pressure from the pass rush can result in loss of yardage and can disrupt timing between the quarterback and receivers, resulting in forced passes. Repeated hits on the quarterback take a toll physically and invite injury. The offense must have a plan to handle the pass rush of linemen, shooting linebackers, and defensive back blitzes. When the defense sends more rushers than available blockers, the hot receiver principle is used in order to get rid of the ball before the rusher can get to the quarterback.

http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory6.html

Long story short, the tree that the recievers will run, based on what the D is showing, has to be exact or you will get things like "Tipped" balls, balls hitting the recievers in the back shoulder, short hopped etc.

Which I think could be mitigated by giving TJ/Sage more snaps with the 1st string during practice, once confident that Favre and the offense are in sync.
Thus, saving Favre's arm in practice too.

You do realize that a teams weekly schedule doesn't really have much time for actual on field reps right and almost all of those reps are done by the pakcage that will be doing them.


To take reps away from your number one and then split them up between 2 backups so you can "Spare" his arm is again, really not how reality is in the NFL.

But what I found more compelling was the potential off the field issues:
If TJ/Sage perform badly, it hurts their confidence and there will be lots of questions about what Chilly was thinking

If TJ/Sage perform GREAT.
What happens the following week if Favre struggles early, do you pull him?
The crowd may start asking for it.
The media will jump on it.
etc.
Instant QB controversy.

So I gave up the idea and decided that it would be best to just do more running to burn the clock... using CT to save AD.
Give some of the younger players at WR more time, etc.
Only letting TJ/Sage in during the later part of the 4th, where you also start subing OL too.
Thus, I hate to say it, but it would make it harder for TJ/Sage to succeed, but also wouldn't put the game at that much risk either.

I for one don't cotton much to the idea that what the press and fans say really affects the players much, especially at the QB position.

My guess, TJ knows why LNAD is being brought in.........

a.
He hasn't quite got reading D's down pat.
b.
He can't make the quick throws because he can't read the D's yet.
c.
When he does make the throw, he hesitates cause of a and b.

He knows he will be allowed to sit the bench and learn the way he was supposed to.

Sage on the other hand, has had this happen to him before.
Lets not forget, he was brought in before Schaub and at that point and time, he thought he was gonna be the sure starter.
To bad for him the staff had a opportunity to get another QB that they didn't think would be available.

Kindof like the current predicament he is in with the Vikes.
Young QB that might not be ready for prime time who needs to sit a spell, looked like a sure thing to be the starter.
Alas, LNAD is released by the Jets and becomes available.
Vikes opt for thier Schaub (LNAD) and now Sage is on the outs.

Anyway, call me a hater, but I hope I've answered Neds question as well as given you all kinds of stuff that explains why I think things like timing is important and none of it had anything to do with LNAD.

"Marrdro" wrote:

"gagarr" wrote:

I mentioned such a idea a while back as part of how the Vikes can keep Favre healthy and rested for the playoffs.

The Favre haters came up with reasons why it wouldn't work.

They think it won't work because of timing issues with WR's, exchange between center and QB, expectations from OL for protection, exchange between QB and RB, and other nuances.

Not sure if I really like to use the word hate, however, for the sake of discussion, I readily admit I am 100% against him coming, however, to sit here and think you can use a QB like a relief pitcher in baseball is kindof crazy.
All "Hating" aside, like it or not, those types of things are very important to how the offense works, especially in the WCO that we run.

Requirements and disadvantages
The West Coast offense requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players. In addition, it requires the quarterback to be able quickly to pick one of 5 receivers to throw to � much more quickly than previously used systems. Often, the quarterback cannot think about the play, but instead reacts instinctively � and thus is often under the control of the offensive coordinator, calling the plays for him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense

There are three main principles to minimize risk and achieve success with the West Coast offense. These include protecting the quarterback, timing the pass, and using multiple receivers (including using backs as receivers). Pressure from the pass rush can result in loss of yardage and can disrupt timing between the quarterback and receivers, resulting in forced passes. Repeated hits on the quarterback take a toll physically and invite injury. The offense must have a plan to handle the pass rush of linemen, shooting linebackers, and defensive back blitzes. When the defense sends more rushers than available blockers, the hot receiver principle is used in order to get rid of the ball before the rusher can get to the quarterback.

http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory6.html

Long story short, the tree that the recievers will run, based on what the D is showing, has to be exact or you will get things like "Tipped" balls, balls hitting the recievers in the back shoulder, short hopped etc.

Which I think could be mitigated by giving TJ/Sage more snaps with the 1st string during practice, once confident that Favre and the offense are in sync.
Thus, saving Favre's arm in practice too.

You do realize that a teams weekly schedule doesn't really have much time for actual on field reps right and almost all of those reps are done by the pakcage that will be doing them.


To take reps away from your number one and then split them up between 2 backups so you can "Spare" his arm is again, really not how reality is in the NFL.

But what I found more compelling was the potential off the field issues:
If TJ/Sage perform badly, it hurts their confidence and there will be lots of questions about what Chilly was thinking

If TJ/Sage perform GREAT.
What happens the following week if Favre struggles early, do you pull him?
The crowd may start asking for it.
The media will jump on it.
etc.
Instant QB controversy.

So I gave up the idea and decided that it would be best to just do more running to burn the clock... using CT to save AD.
Give some of the younger players at WR more time, etc.
Only letting TJ/Sage in during the later part of the 4th, where you also start subing OL too.
Thus, I hate to say it, but it would make it harder for TJ/Sage to succeed, but also wouldn't put the game at that much risk either.

I for one don't cotton much to the idea that what the press and fans say really affects the players much, especially at the QB position.

My guess, TJ knows why LNAD is being brought in.........

a.
He hasn't quite got reading D's down pat.
b.
He can't make the quick throws because he can't read the D's yet.
c.
When he does make the throw, he hesitates cause of a and b.

He knows he will be allowed to sit the bench and learn the way he was supposed to.

Sage on the other hand, has had this happen to him before.
Lets not forget, he was brought in before Schaub and at that point and time, he thought he was gonna be the sure starter.
To bad for him the staff had a opportunity to get another QB that they didn't think would be available.

Kindof like the current predicament he is in with the Vikes.
Young QB that might not be ready for prime time who needs to sit a spell, looked like a sure thing to be the starter.
Alas, LNAD is released by the Jets and becomes available.
Vikes opt for thier Schaub (LNAD) and now Sage is on the outs.

Anyway, call me a hater, but I hope I've answered Neds question as well as given you all kinds of stuff that explains why I think things like timing is important and none of it had anything to do with LNAD.

Excellent post my friend. Please move yourself up a column on your spreadsheet.

"UffDaVikes" wrote:

Excellent post My Sexy Little Pixie. Please move yourself up a column on your spreadsheet.

Thanks my friend.
Been awhile since someone moved me up.
;D