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  1. #21
    PurplePackerEater is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    "radioactivez0r" wrote:
    I thought this was an interesting statement:
    "But the play is one of 43 this season on which the Vikings have completed a pass on third down but were tackled short of the first down, an instance that has occurred on about 40 percent of their third-down passing plays. "

    There's got to be something fixable there, that's just Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.
    I had a whole paragraph typed out, however I just want to ask a question instead. How does anybody explain this?

    Let me quess. The players weren't good enough to execute properly.

    The scheme is definitly in question.

  2. #22
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    "PurplePackerEater" wrote:
    "radioactivez0r" wrote:
    I thought this was an interesting statement:
    "But the play is one of 43 this season on which the Vikings have completed a pass on third down but were tackled short of the first down, an instance that has occurred on about 40 percent of their third-down passing plays. "

    There's got to be something fixable there, that's just Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.
    I had a whole paragraph typed out, however I just want to ask a question instead. How does anybody explain this?

    Let me quess. The players weren't good enough to execute properly.

    The scheme is definitly in question.
    I thought Del explained that quite nicely.

    WCO uses a backwards progression. Your first read will always be the short read. Does that mean no one else is running deeper routes that can get past the first down marker? Nope in fact it is 100% certain there are 2-3 guys at or past the marker. In order to make the proper read you need to know where you need to be for a first, you need good pass blocking to have time to progress down the field, you need to have WR's who can get there quickly and create seperation, and you need to have guys who can catch the ball when it gets there. We don't have any of that.

    Execution IMO, and lack of talent.
    Whether it is the fault of the receivers not getting open or their inabilty to make the catch, the QB not making the correct read or not trusting his wide receivers & checking down or the lack of the offense not giving the QB enough time to make the proper reads & throw the pass, it does seem to point to the execution by the players.

    The ones that puzzle me the most are the 3rd & long type run plays.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #23
    Prophet's Avatar
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    I told you it was the egg, no wait, it was the chicken...or was it the egg?
    Forget it.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  4. #24
    PurplePackerEater is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    "singersp" wrote:
    "PurplePackerEater" wrote:
    "radioactivez0r" wrote:
    I thought this was an interesting statement:
    "But the play is one of 43 this season on which the Vikings have completed a pass on third down but were tackled short of the first down, an instance that has occurred on about 40 percent of their third-down passing plays. "

    There's got to be something fixable there, that's just Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd.
    I had a whole paragraph typed out, however I just want to ask a question instead. How does anybody explain this?

    Let me quess. The players weren't good enough to execute properly.

    The scheme is definitly in question.
    I thought Del explained that quite nicely.

    WCO uses a backwards progression. Your first read will always be the short read. Does that mean no one else is running deeper routes that can get past the first down marker? Nope in fact it is 100% certain there are 2-3 guys at or past the marker. In order to make the proper read you need to know where you need to be for a first, you need good pass blocking to have time to progress down the field, you need to have WR's who can get there quickly and create seperation, and you need to have guys who can catch the ball when it gets there. We don't have any of that.

    Execution IMO, and lack of talent.
    Whether it is the fault of the receivers not getting open or their inabilty to make the catch, the QB not making the correct read or not trusting his wide receivers & checking down or the lack of the offense not giving the QB enough time to make the proper reads & throw the pass, it does seem to point to the execution by the players.

    The ones that puzzle me the most are the 3rd & long type run plays.
    I don't get it. (honestly)

    Basically, what I've gathered from this thread is ... if Childress doesn't have superior talant on the feild, the Vikings ARE going to lose.

  5. #25
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    "mnjamie" wrote:
    Scheme.

    You fit the strengths of the players you have to a scheme that works best ... Not force it down their throats and then blame the players when it doesn't work.
    Exactly!

    See what you've got and design the scheme based on your strengths.

    Sometimes I wonder if he knows what he has!

    It's easy to blame the players and it's hard to argue against that. But I hope someone is willing to glance in the mirror!
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  6. #26
    triedandtruevikesfan is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    Now... I blame the scheme, earlier I blamed the execution.
    However, if the execution wasn't there the HC needs to change what isn't working and find something that does.
    He didn't change anything.
    He just keeps calling the same crap play after crap play, not allowing his QB to change the play and try to find something that works.


    I'm not saying fire Childress, but if next year things don't improve.
    He obviously was not the answer.

  7. #27
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    "triedandtruevikesfan" wrote:
    Now... I blame the scheme, earlier I blamed the execution.
    However, if the execution wasn't there the HC needs to change what isn't working and find something that does.
    He didn't change anything.
    He just keeps calling the same crap play after crap play, not allowing his QB to change the play and try to find something that works.


    I'm not saying fire Childress, but if next year things don't improve.
    He obviously was not the answer.
    I pretty much agree with TNT!
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  8. #28
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    Re: Which to blame first? The scheme, or its execution?

    I'm leaning toward a little of both.


    While in any given passing play you'll have a primary receiver, it's still ultimately up to the QB to choose who to throw a pass to. Even though many of us have been disappointed with Childress's play-calling, and rightfully so, I think it's important to keep in mind that Brad Johnson (and Tavaris was mentored by him) had the final decision in the majority of those 43 short 3rd down passes. And it's not like the 3rd down dump off can't work; in fact, other teams have success with it all the time. The problem is that you need to draw the coverage out past the first down marker so that no one is left covering the middle of the field. And when you try to do that play 43 times in a season, no one is going to be fooled.

    So who knows if the check down receiver was the primary one, or whether our QB's just felt most comfortable throwing to them, either because they were the only ones who could get open or because they didn't want to take a chance on a potential interception?

    Ultimately I think you do have to go back to the coaching when an obvious change is required, but at the same time, I wouldn't hang the whole problem on the coaches either.

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